Why is the winning vote to just let her go? She's not sorry, Firn just said she's not sorry, she just tried to kill us- it's time to put her down, and end this nonsense. She is still hurting people, and plans to continue to do so. We locked up Oriko for burning down a house. With no casualties, and breaking someone's arm. We beat the crap out of Akiko for some extortion and greed. This is on a whole different scale of evil.

It's not really on the scale I want- I think we should call for timestop meeting and also plan to fight until it happens- Riona will probably get the message too- but at least it's not "Okay! Have fun murdering people!"

[X] Filraen
 
I am actually very satisfied with this update.

Riona has drawn a line in the sand. Release her from the privacy construct and walk away (at least for now) or throw down. No more "just one more thing". So it really comes down to a variation on two choices:

1. Escalate to force and restrain her in some manner.
2. Drop the privacy construct and walk away (for now).

#2 still leaves opportunities open in the future but has its risks. Maybe she'll be more willing to talk at some future date when she doesn't feel cornered. Maybe a conference of Sabrina's alliance will decide to take Riona down before her flight out leaves. On the other hand, maybe Riona will hurt someone or choose to flee back to Edinburgh ahead of schedule.

However it's down to basically a binary choice. Restrain Riona by force or at least temporarily walk away.
 
EDIT: True that Sabrina's friends might decide Riona's too dangerous and vote to take her out now.

I'd like to call Sayaka, O&K and explain to everyone before deciding something like that, but it might happen.

For now, just explain and see what everyone thinks.

This feels like a bit of a reversal in position. I'm kind of curious as to your thinking here. Both ideas seem like they would work quite well but it's still something of an abrupt change to go from pressuring from advantage to easing up and letting her regain equilibrium.
Well, it's toned down. Purpose is the same, just being more careful to keep Riona in a state of mind to cooperate. It won't help if she snaps.

Why is the winning vote to just let her go? She's not sorry, Firn just said she's not sorry, she just tried to kill us- it's time to put her down, and end this nonsense. She is still hurting people, and plans to continue to do so. We locked up Oriko for burning down a house. With no casualties, and breaking someone's arm. We beat the crap out of Akiko for some extortion and greed. This is on a whole different scale of evil.

It's not really on the scale I want- I think we should call for timestop meeting and also plan to fight until it happens- Riona will probably get the message too- but at least it's not "Okay! Have fun murdering people!"

[X] Filraen
We're not done.

Letting her go - for now, with demands she does not pull any shit.

With intentions to keep watch over her while she stays, to make sure. With intentions to talk again before she's scheduled to leave. Maybe with intentions to most likely get the most we can out of her and then cuff her with antimagic and throw her into meguca prison, even.

Make no mistake, leaving right now does not in any way mean letting Riona go on and kill any more people. She'll be in Mitakihara for a day, so we got time.
 
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Mmm. That's great and all. Buuut.
Allow me to raise a previous point in our discussion:
Does she know there's an afterlife?
Considering the sort of transhumanist stuff we are discussing, well.
Wishes are essentially miracles.
Magic is essentially a miracle.

TL;DR

[Q] Rionnnnnna
-[Q] Listen here, you little shit. I'm a daughter of two goddesses, and you don't get to tell me what I can and can't do. :V
Maybe use it?
We actually promised Airi a very similar, if arguably less difficult, thing.
 
I am actually very satisfied with this update.

Riona has drawn a line in the sand. Release her from the privacy construct and walk away (at least for now) or throw down. No more "just one more thing". So it really comes down to a variation on two choices:

1. Escalate to force and restrain her in some manner.
2. Drop the privacy construct and walk away (for now).

#2 still leaves opportunities open in the future but has its risks. Maybe she'll be more willing to talk at some future date when she doesn't feel cornered. Maybe a conference of Sabrina's alliance will decide to take Riona down before her flight out leaves. On the other hand, maybe Riona will hurt someone or choose to flee back to Edinburgh ahead of schedule.

However it's down to basically a binary choice. Restrain Riona by force or at least temporarily walk away.
It's not temporary, nothing's changed. She got so mad she attacked us. Relations have only changed for the worse, and she's going to leave and keep hurting people. Letting her leave is not only stupid, it's downright evil.
We're not done.

Letting her go - for now, with demands she does not pull any shit.
Dude, that's moronic. She just tried to attack us, if anything she's going to make absolutely sure that we never get to do this to her again. She's pissed that we have her cornered right now. She is obviously not willing to negotiate. You've done nothing but try while she makes as clear to you as possible that she has zero interest in it. If you're letting her go, you're letting her leave the country. She'll kill people. Hell, if she knows we can stop her, why wouldn't she take hostages with her shades, who can move independent of her, on the other side of the planet?
How is it false? She just tried to use magic on us. She's someone who sucks peoples souls out. That sure looked a hell of a lot like trying to shade us.
 
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Why is the winning vote to just let her go? She's not sorry, Firn just said she's not sorry, she just tried to kill us- it's time to put her down, and end this nonsense. She is still hurting people, and plans to continue to do so. We locked up Oriko for burning down a house. With no casualties, and breaking someone's arm. We beat the crap out of Akiko for some extortion and greed. This is on a whole different scale of evil.

It's not really on the scale I want- I think we should call for timestop meeting and also plan to fight until it happens- Riona will probably get the message too- but at least it's not "Okay! Have fun murdering people!"

[X] Filraen

Both Oriko and Akiko started the fight. Rionna, at her most frustrated yet, has only ordered "Let me go!". She doesn't want to fight, so let's not.
Be the better person, and result will come naturally. It may not work in real life, but it does in this quest.
 
You open your mouth to speak, but she barrels on. "You want to know? I raised my sister's killer," she snarls. "I hate her. I hate her. I want justice, I want my sister back, but I cannae. I can't bring her back. You can't."
Does anyone else think that this...doesn't line up? The fixation with grief controllers make sense, but nothing else does. The implication of her being one of only two people who are publicly capable of holding a city on their own is that she's on the high end of the power scale. Why hasn't she actually gotten revenge on her sister's killer already?

I think you've misread that. She brought back her sister's killer as a shade.

To punish her.

Forever.
 
Both Oriko and Akiko started the fight. Rionna, at her most frustrated yet, has only ordered "Let me go!". She doesn't want to fight, so let's not.
Be the better person, and result will come naturally. It may not work in real life, but it does in this quest.
She did! She did start a fight! She just used magic to try and murder/compel us! That's pretty close to starting a damn fight! She's also a murderer who runs around killing people- she's admitted some of them are good people- and then keeps their souls around as slaves.
So you're advocating for choice #1. That's fine. But don't say it's not a choice.
I'm advocating for stopping the slave-keeping serial killer who's not even sorry and just tried to force her way out of negotiations.
Firnagzen has confirmed that she only tried to Jedi mind trick us, and several people have quoted him since.
That's really only slightly better- Sabs was only talking, and really this girl can't be allowed to leave. She's going to hurt people. To kill them. That's bad. We should probably stop that.
 
How is it false? She just tried to use magic on us. She's someone who sucks peoples souls out. That sure looked a hell of a lot like trying to shade us.
And that said - no, she didn't try to turn you into a Shade. That would have been, uh. More noticeable.
Firn has been -

Firnagzen has confirmed that she only tried to Jedi mind trick us, and several people have quoted him since.
She didn't though, unless letting her go somehow kills us.
- right, what they said.
 
I'm not sure if this is constructive to say and I know it won't be well received by some, but I do think the extent of Rionna's transgressions is being built on a tenuous foundation.

There was a tacit demand 'justify your actions or I'll end you'. That is frankly arrogant as hell for a newbie meguca who asked for her expertise, and a LOT of people myself included would not be inclined to respond further than 'make me'. Which is exactly what she did! Then people tried to backpedal the hard line and say 'oh but if you do I'll help you'. The latter might be true but in terms of dominance mechanics it's still demanding she roll over and show belly. So I think she does not WANT to justify her actions and will not do so no matter how people twist the demand.

There's a lot of people who think that violating free will and messing with souls just puts her over the line no matter the justification... To which I say 'meh'. Philosophy aside, you can put a long list of folks up who killed or raped others to whom I'd say 'puree their souls' just as easily as I'd give the death penalty. I can understand the contrary view, but let's all be clear this is not self-defense- if we kill her over it, we're playing judge, jury, and executioner without a day of investigation.
 
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[X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
-[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
[X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting.
[X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
 
Let me just say it here:
Riona chose a pretty shitty thing to be.
She could be a doctor
Or a mime
A Scottish mime
Even though she's Irish
But instead she chose to be a Griefbenders' torture chamber.

That's literally "living for revenge". Welp.
 
There was a tacit demand 'justify your actions or I'll end you'. That is frankly arrogant as hell for a newbie meguca who asked for her expertise
Usually people do demand some justification for murder and enslavement! And she hasn't justified it at all! It's not arrogant to go "why did you murder all those people and keep them around as a personal slave army what the fuck".
There's a lot of people who think that violating free will and messing with souls just puts her over the line no matter the justification... To which I say 'meh'. Philosophy aside, you can put a long list of folks up who killed others to whom I'd say 'puree their souls' just as easily as I'd give the death penalty. I can understand the contrary view, but let's all be clear this is not self-defense- if we kill her over it, we're playing judge, jury, and executioner without a day of investigation.
I mean, she murdered a bunch of people, admitted some of them were good, and ripped their souls out. She's pretty black and white in the wrong here, no matter what her motivations were.
 
Dude, that's moronic.
Choice of words. I'm not a moron and would rather you didn't imply I was.

She just tried to attack us, if anything she's going to make absolutely sure that we never get to do this to her again. She's pissed that we have her cornered right now. She is obviously not willing to negotiate. You've done nothing but try while she makes as clear to you as possible that she has zero interest in it. If you're letting her go, you're letting her leave the country. She'll kill people. Hell, if she knows we can stop her, why wouldn't she take hostages with her shades, who can move independent of her, on the other side of the planet?
I believe you are heavily overreacting.

Mmm. That's great and all. Buuut.
Allow me to raise a previous point in our discussion:
Does she know there's an afterlife?
Considering the sort of transhumanist stuff we are discussing, well.
Wishes are essentially miracles.
Magic is essentially a miracle.

TL;DR

[Q] Rionnnnnna
-[Q] Listen here, you little shit. I'm a daughter of two goddesses, and you don't get to tell me what I can and can't do. :V
Maybe use it?
We actually promised Airi a very similar, if arguably less difficult, thing.
It's really difficult to argue for something we have no proof for. :/

Let me just say it here:
Riona chose a pretty shitty thing to be.
She could be a doctor
Or a mime
A Scottish mime
Even though she's Irish
But instead she chose to be a Griefbenders' torture chamber.

That's literally "living for revenge". Welp.
I would honestly blame KB. KB's the one who offers Wishes at worst times.

Riona literally can't move past her sister's death, thanks to KB granting her a Wish at the worst time.

Of course, Riona needs to take responsibility for her own actions, and is guilty of her own crimes, but I'd blame KB for Riona being what she is.
 
She did! She did start a fight! She just used magic to try and murder/compel us! That's pretty close to starting a damn fight! She's also a murderer who runs around killing people- she's admitted some of them are good people- and then keeps their souls around as slaves.

Madokami would take her in. We can't disappoint our Mom!

Seriously though, I firmly believe that nothing bad can result from us being nice to her. Firn has explicitly said that's the meta of this quest. An in-universe explanation can be Madoka's wish.
 
Question: what kind of magic do you put into a cider? More importantly, what kind of veteran guca would spend magic on a friggin drink? And why are we so "awfully suspicious" of it?

The usual joke has been that she's drinking "spirits", but it seems to me that no-one in their right mind would infuse a drink with magic unless it produced some form of useful effect, and moreover that they would just cast that effect with their damn magic unless, for some reason, they were using the drink as a "storage" of sorts to take the effect to other places without needing to use their magic for it... which makes a lot of sense if Rionna spends less magic at home than away.

Bennouna mentions her drinking pretty constantly, or at least gave that impression, I think. What effect do you keep up semi-permanently as a veteran guca?

The obvious answer, I think, is a mental one. The quest also tracks along the posts that Rionna is drinking, is drinking... is eventually out of cider.

...

Oh, dear.

That is a very nasty hypothetical, which fits with "keep being nice" quite perfectly, while preserving all the horrifying stuff Rionna has done, accounting for "I'm a veteran meguca constantly drinking a magical substance," explaining why Rionna is unwilling to accept help, keeping her redeemable, and playing exactly the line Firn wrote:



So, newest theory from the catgirl engine: Rionna is mindwhammying herself to one degree or another on a consistent basis with the cider. She's already laid out that she's more/less terrified of becoming a witch, and we think she's trying to accomplish unspecified something up in Edinburgh. The veterans here will understand the concept of a guca mindwhammying themselves to prevent grief accumulation; for everybody else, the general idea would be "If I don't do something to prevent myself from despairing over this shit, I'll witch and I won't be able to fix the problem(s). Time to start fucking with my own head." Hell, it might not even have been intentional: Rionna is the soulguca; this would be well within her purview to accomplish, but she could just as well have been looking for "slow my grief accumulation" and ended up with a mindwhammy. By now it could easily be self-perpetuating, what with the fucking atrocities we understand that she's committed.
If you need to be perpetually hopped up on some mind-whammying substance, you don't take any less than what you'll need for the entire trip when you go somewhere. I believe then, that the cider isn't something she needs in order to function, or on a normal basis.
I would like to suggest that the reason she drinks is because of talking with other magical girls. She was drinking it in Edinburgh when Nadia met her, and she's drinking it now. The common theme is that that there was a magical girl there that she might have to fight. Therefore, I think it's a buff. She didn't expect to need the buff for very long, just long enough to meet us, determine we're an evil fake, give us a massive beatdown, and take our soul. Perhaps a little extra time if we had a group.

It's likely that Riona's powers lend themselves to one hit kills, which means that the best buff for her would be something that increases her reaction time, and gives her increased sensory powers. Therefore, the drink probably gives a buff that increases those, to prevent ambushes and give her an edge when talks break down and she needs to kill a grief-bender.
This also partially explains her attitude. She may be impatient normally, but with her buffs going she's waaaaaaay more impatient, because everyone feels like they're talking so slowly, due to the enhanced reflexes.

Now, you're probably wondering why in the world she would offer something like that to someone she might have to fight. It's possible that the buff is so strong that anyone who isn't used to it feels overwhelmed, as if they were under the influence of drugs. This would be a pretty effective debuff, I think, making it even easier to take out anyone under its effects.

Now imagine that you're Riona. You've been drinking this stuff since you stepped off the plane, in preparation for fighting another evil grief bender. You meet the target, and then find out that she actually has true grief bending. Wut. She also seems to have an annoying concept of morals, so you tell her what you can do, since if you're going to fight her you need to provoke her into fighting you soon, before your buffs run out. But she doesn't attack.
Things are getting pretty tense, and you aren't exactly the best at social even in the best of times. So you keep drinking, since it's become sort of a nervous habit around potentially hostile megucas. The fact that you are stuck inside this 'privacy sphere' thing, unable to call upon your wraiths, isn't helping matters. You're in close quarters with a potentially hostile meguca, half your power is sealed away, and you don't actually know whether you can exit this thing without her consent. Also, you maaaaaaaybe just antagonized her a bit. Oops?
So you keep sipping at your drink, drawing courage from the fact that at least you can probably soul-yank her before she can finish attacking if things go south. Wait, where's the liquid? You hold your flask upside down, and confirm that you just ran out. Weeeeeell crap. You now have maybe a few minutes before your buffs run out, and with them even more of your advantage in a fight against her.
You start glancing around, looking for a way out. Okay, blondy's over in that direction, right? So you want to find a way to escape that puts you on the other side as her, then summon your main combat wraiths before things can finish going pear-shaped. Now, how to get out?????
More talking occurs. Slow, slow talking. And your buffs are nearly out. You need to escape. You tell the grief bender a little about your motivations to catch her off guard, and immediately follow up with using your magic for a compulsion.
"Let me go."
And... nothing happens. Great.
 
Choice of words. I'm not a moron and would rather you didn't imply I was.

Of course, Riona needs to take responsibility for her own actions, and is guilty of her own crimes, but I'd blame KB for Riona being what she is.
I make no implications about your intelligence, but your argument does you no favors. Also, KB may be a son of a bitch, but he can't just excuse all her crimes and then just letting her go murder more people, no matter who's fault it is.
 
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