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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kaizuki said:
Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully.
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Click to shrink...

Seriously, though, I'm with Narrator when it comes to this section.

If we can't go five minutes without calling Rionna "evil" to her face, it really shouldn't be surprising if she doesn't want to cooperate with us.
 
Tally incoming
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 15, 2018 at 11:27 AM, finished with 166 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list. Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [x] Yes, her power freaks us out. That doesn't mean we won't help her. We've seen girls do a lot of terrible things to survive, and we didn't turn our backs on them either.
    [x] Try to address whatever concerns she puts forth:
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her because of our judgmental attitude, explain that we want to help everyone, even girls who've had to make hard choices to survive. Even witches.
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her out of the goodness of our heart, offer an exchange, because we want her help, too. Ever since Nadia told us there was a girl with soul powers, we've been hoping to meet her.
    -[x] If she seem reluctant to share her secret with us, offer her a secret of ours as a show of good faith.
    -[x] If she doubts our ability to help, say that it's far from the most ambitious challenge we're tackling.
    [x] Use whichever response as a segue to bring dewitching and/or our desire to replicate and distribute our powers to provide universal cleansing. Gauge her interest in each and go into detail as appropriate:
    -[x] If dewitching: show her the Clear Seed. Explain it in detail: the sheer quantity of grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, the feeding of hope-flavored magic.
    -[x] If universal cleansing, show her the Clear Seed and explain its capacity, but that it's only a temporary measure (since eventually we want to turn them back into people). Explain that we want to create a renewable alternative for Grief Seeds that we can distribute to every girl on Earth, but we're still a novice at enchanting.
    [x] We think she can help us and we can help her. Please. Let us help her.
    [x] I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
    [x] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching.
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    [X] You're not lying. You'd expect her to try doing better after her problem is solved. Doesn't she want to?
    -[X] And yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.
    [X] Bring up de-witching, in whatever manner fits the conversation best. Potentially:
    -[X] As an example of the scale and "insanity" level of projects you're willing to take on.
    -[X] As something that falls within Rionna's specialty, and that we were hoping to barter for her assistance with.
    -[X] As a show of trust, a secret we're telling her so she can tell us one in return.
    [X] If Rionna doesn't open up, and voting has not yet been cut to, carefully push Rionna to explain what exactly she needs our power for, that we ourselves can't assist in.
    [X] Yeah, you despise it. But you also get the impression that she wouldn't be doing it if she didn't have to.
    [X] Your guess, based on what she's said, is that she's working on renewable cleansing, or Dewitching, or something closely related to that.
    -[X] And those are things you've been working on a lot too. Because you can't be everywhere, and no-one deserves to be turned into a Witch. No-one.
    -[X] Show her a Clear Seed. Let her examine it - even hold it - and tell her it's your first step towards those goals. It's not nearly enough, because it still uses someone's soul to cleanse another's.
    [X] The fact is, you need help with this. And you're willing to bet her problem - whatever it is - can't be solved alone, either.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list. Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    -[X] But talk like Boomhauer.
    --[X] In Japanese.
Click to expand...
 
[x] Aranfan
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 15, 2018 at 2:58 PM, finished with 172 posts and 33 votes.
  • [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list. Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    [x] I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
    [x] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching.
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [x] Yes, her power freaks us out. That doesn't mean we won't help her. We've seen girls do a lot of terrible things to survive, and we didn't turn our backs on them either.
    [x] Try to address whatever concerns she puts forth:
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her because of our judgmental attitude, explain that we want to help everyone, even girls who've had to make hard choices to survive. Even witches.
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her out of the goodness of our heart, offer an exchange, because we want her help, too. Ever since Nadia told us there was a girl with soul powers, we've been hoping to meet her.
    -[x] If she seem reluctant to share her secret with us, offer her a secret of ours as a show of good faith.
    -[x] If she doubts our ability to help, say that it's far from the most ambitious challenge we're tackling.
    [x] Use whichever response as a segue to bring dewitching and/or our desire to replicate and distribute our powers to provide universal cleansing. Gauge her interest in each and go into detail as appropriate:
    -[x] If dewitching: show her the Clear Seed. Explain it in detail: the sheer quantity of grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, the feeding of hope-flavored magic.
    -[x] If universal cleansing, show her the Clear Seed and explain its capacity, but that it's only a temporary measure (since eventually we want to turn them back into people). Explain that we want to create a renewable alternative for Grief Seeds that we can distribute to every girl on Earth, but we're still a novice at enchanting.
    [x] We think she can help us and we can help her. Please. Let us help her.
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] Yeah, you despise it. But you also get the impression that she wouldn't be doing it if she didn't have to.
    [X] Your guess, based on what she's said, is that she's working on renewable cleansing, or Dewitching, or something closely related to that.
    -[X] And those are things you've been working on a lot too. Because you can't be everywhere, and no-one deserves to be turned into a Witch. No-one.
    -[X] Show her a Clear Seed. Let her examine it - even hold it - and tell her it's your first step towards those goals. It's not nearly enough, because it still uses someone's soul to cleanse another's.
    [X] The fact is, you need help with this. And you're willing to bet her problem - whatever it is - can't be solved alone, either.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] Postconditions, not preconditions, and yes, you'd try to prevent unnecessary deaths in the interim.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list. Her methods are both evil and severely hampered by working alone, but you're rather hoping to resolve both of those issues peacefully.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    -[X] But talk like Boomhauer.
    --[X] In Japanese.
    [X] Ask her what she's talking about.
Click to expand...
 
Redshirt Army said:
Seriously, though, I'm with Narrator when it comes to this section.

If we can't go five minutes without calling Rionna "evil" to her face, it really shouldn't be surprising if she doesn't want to cooperate with us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

My opinion on this goes something like so:

I don't really think there's a point to trying to hide our feelings on this, because we've already communicated perfectly well what our opinion of her actions is. I don't think it's possible for us to lose or gain points in that area, so to speak, at this time -- if we try to backpedal we look either stupid or deceitful. On the other hand, we haven't done anything to come off as dishonest, and I think it's a priority that we maintain that.

It's also important to avoid calling her evil. Her actions are/were evil, yes. But it's the difference between Iowa Group and Akiko -- motives are, in this case, much of the question.

Aranfan said:
[x] I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
[x] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'd rather put all of our cards down, thank you. If you agree that it's clear she's been working on cleansing, then it should be said, both for confirmation and to see if we can get more information out of her over it. I also think offering a cleanse at this stage is actually quite critical, as we haven't offered her one since we started visibly revising our opinion of her.


Some edits.


[X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
[X] Dig.
-[X] We hate what she's done, but we're figuring on being able to peacefully get her to stop afterwards.
-[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
--[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
--[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.
[X] Offer a cleanse.
 
Kaizuki said:
I'd rather put all of our cards down, thank you. If you agree that it's clear she's been working on cleansing, then it should be said, both for confirmation and to see if we can get more information out of her over it. I also think offering a cleanse at this stage is actually quite critical, as we haven't offered her one since we started visibly revising our opinion of her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I am operating on the KISS principle right now honestly. Brevity is better than details.
 
I'm preferring Aranfan's vote to Kaizuki's at the moment, even though I like the structure of a lot of Kaizuki's vote. Why? Because it shows some degree of faith in Rionna as a person. The fact is, we're implicitly relying on that faith in her, because otherwise what deal could we make with her that would get her to stop? And I think that is worth saying.

[X] Aranfan
 
Aranfan said:
I am operating on the KISS principle right now honestly. Brevity is better than details.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

KISS only works until you start throwing important stuff out the door. If you were trying to do KISS, your vote would be to bring up Rionna's attempts to manufacture cleansing rather than to bring up dewitching; and it would read "[] Bring up Rionna's attempting to create cleansing" instead of "[] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching", indeed, even ignoring that, it should read "[] Bring up dewitching" if you were going by KISS.

You say brevity is better than details: that's explicitly not what we want from updates. Brevity is good, details are what let us work out what Rionna is doing. The longer and deeper we are in the dark, the greater the stress on the thread, and the greater the stress on the thread, the greater the stress on Sabrina.

I understand that that isn't quite a fair interpretation on my part: you're referring to the vote, not the posts. But I am going to insist on including mention of the thing we know about that she hasn't admitted to, because that is the most reliable way to drag more information out of her. It is how we got to this vote at all instead of staying stuck in the quagmire we were in: the moment we confirmed there was something in Edinburgh, the entire tone of the thread shifted, and it took Rionna and Sabrina from being at each others' throats to here.

So, all of these comprise maybe the majority of the reasons I will not so much as consider voting the way you are at this time. Remember that it is a core element of the quest that Firn rewards us for figuring things out, and keep in mind that nothing which is not set into IC can be rewarded.

PhDEevee said:
I'm preferring Aranfan's vote to Kaizuki's at the moment, even though I like the structure of a lot of Kaizuki's vote. Why? Because it shows some degree of faith in Rionna as a person. The fact is, we're implicitly relying on that faith in her, because otherwise what deal could we make with her that would get her to stop? And I think that is worth saying.

[X] Aranfan
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Click to shrink...

But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Kaizuki said:
we're figuring on being able to peacefully get her to stop afterwards.
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I don't see how the identical amount of faith isn't implied, nor do I see your logic for how offering to cleanse her at this point isn't a far larger expression of faith. You're going to have to render a better -- or, at least, more complete -- argument.
 
Kaizuki said:
I don't see how the identical amount of faith isn't implied, nor do I see your logic for how offering to cleanse her at this point isn't a far larger expression of faith. You're going to have to render a better -- or, at least, more complete -- argument.
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Click to shrink...
Edit: Ninja'd more coherently.

I did. I think I even did it multiple times, though this was before Aranfan made their specific vote. The answer is that 'getting her to stop' makes Rionna ceasing her evil ways incumbent on Sabrina. It raises the spectre of Sabrina stopping her by force. So no, it doesn't display a lot of faith in Rionna compared to Aranfan's, where saying that 'she won't have to' relays the implication that Rionna is a moral person forced to do bad things, who will ultimately stop of her own accord. Huge difference.

I also have a longer comment previous talking through multiple issues I had with your vote.
 
Last edited:
Current vote(I've been switching)

[X]Kaizuki
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 15, 2018 at 6:36 PM, finished with 186 posts and 35 votes.
  • [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] We hate what she's done, but we're figuring on her not having to do it anymore afterwards.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    [x] I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
    [x] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching.
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [x] Yes, her power freaks us out. That doesn't mean we won't help her. We've seen girls do a lot of terrible things to survive, and we didn't turn our backs on them either.
    [x] Try to address whatever concerns she puts forth:
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her because of our judgmental attitude, explain that we want to help everyone, even girls who've had to make hard choices to survive. Even witches.
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her out of the goodness of our heart, offer an exchange, because we want her help, too. Ever since Nadia told us there was a girl with soul powers, we've been hoping to meet her.
    -[x] If she seem reluctant to share her secret with us, offer her a secret of ours as a show of good faith.
    -[x] If she doubts our ability to help, say that it's far from the most ambitious challenge we're tackling.
    [x] Use whichever response as a segue to bring dewitching and/or our desire to replicate and distribute our powers to provide universal cleansing. Gauge her interest in each and go into detail as appropriate:
    -[x] If dewitching: show her the Clear Seed. Explain it in detail: the sheer quantity of grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, the feeding of hope-flavored magic.
    -[x] If universal cleansing, show her the Clear Seed and explain its capacity, but that it's only a temporary measure (since eventually we want to turn them back into people). Explain that we want to create a renewable alternative for Grief Seeds that we can distribute to every girl on Earth, but we're still a novice at enchanting.
    [x] We think she can help us and we can help her. Please. Let us help her.
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] We hate what she's done, but we're figuring on her not having to do it anymore afterwards.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    -[X] But talk like Boomhauer.
    --[X] In Japanese.
    [X] Ask her what she's talking about.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by cmwatford on Aug 15, 2018 at 5:47 PM, finished with 182 posts and 35 votes.
  • [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] We hate what she's done, but we're figuring on being able to peacefully get her to stop afterwards.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    [x] I hate what you've done. But I'm banking on you not having to do it anymore once I've helped you.
    [x] And I could really use your help with figuring out how to reverse witching.
    [X] Bring up de-Witching
    [x] Yes, her power freaks us out. That doesn't mean we won't help her. We've seen girls do a lot of terrible things to survive, and we didn't turn our backs on them either.
    [x] Try to address whatever concerns she puts forth:
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her because of our judgmental attitude, explain that we want to help everyone, even girls who've had to make hard choices to survive. Even witches.
    -[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her out of the goodness of our heart, offer an exchange, because we want her help, too. Ever since Nadia told us there was a girl with soul powers, we've been hoping to meet her.
    -[x] If she seem reluctant to share her secret with us, offer her a secret of ours as a show of good faith.
    -[x] If she doubts our ability to help, say that it's far from the most ambitious challenge we're tackling.
    [x] Use whichever response as a segue to bring dewitching and/or our desire to replicate and distribute our powers to provide universal cleansing. Gauge her interest in each and go into detail as appropriate:
    -[x] If dewitching: show her the Clear Seed. Explain it in detail: the sheer quantity of grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, the feeding of hope-flavored magic.
    -[x] If universal cleansing, show her the Clear Seed and explain its capacity, but that it's only a temporary measure (since eventually we want to turn them back into people). Explain that we want to create a renewable alternative for Grief Seeds that we can distribute to every girl on Earth, but we're still a novice at enchanting.
    [x] We think she can help us and we can help her. Please. Let us help her.
    [X] Bring up your de-Witching efforts/progress
    -[X] Yes I do, but Meguca are for saving and that means that I'm willing to put aside my own feelings on the matter if it means being able to help.
    [X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
    [X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
    [X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
    -[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
    [X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
    [X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
    [X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story
    [X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
    [X] Dig.
    -[X] We hate what she's done, but we're figuring on being able to peacefully get her to stop afterwards.
    -[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
    --[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
    --[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
    ---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.
    [X] Offer a cleanse.
    -[X] But talk like Boomhauer.
    --[X] In Japanese.
    [X] Ask her what she's talking about.
Click to expand...
 
Torgamous said:
In your vote the actor is Sabrina, while in Aranfan's it's Rionna. "Peacefully get her to stop" can also mean a lot of things other than what is meant, while "you not having to do it anymore" is pretty specific.

[x] Aranfan
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Sigh.

PhDEevee said:
I think there's also a flaw in the 'what is she doing?' section. I like the general structure of it but don't really like the specifics of it? The first line reads like a rhetorical question that doesn't want an actual answer, and then you follow up with the fact that it's obviously cleansing. Except it's not. We figure it's that, but if we'd been sure we would have been floundering a lot less in this conversation. Similarly with Dewitching, though the language there is worded much less strongly. Finally, saying that something is 'high up on your priority list', well, sounds like bullshit even when someone is being completely earnest about it. It doesn't give Sabrina's reasons, and it doesn't give any evidence for Rionna to believe it. It also doesn't help to specifically call someone's methods evil when they've previously bristled at being judged. Rionna seems pretty touchy about it, to be honest.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Point the first: what kind of argument is this nonsense about how "saying that something is 'high up on your priority list' sounds like bullshit"? Have you been listening to too much corporate shit-shoveling or something? Those words mean exactly what they are supposed to. Their connotations mean exactly what they are supposed to. This isn't "leverage synergies blockchain-centric risk-averse mono-focused paradigm shifting," it's "these are both fairly high priorities to me." "It just sounds like bullshit" is not a meaningful argument, Eevee.

Point the second: Dude, you can't use stuff like "We figure it's that, but if we'd been sure we would have done XYZ beforehand" as an argument for not being sure about something now because DUH, WE WEREN'T sure, not right up until we put all the pieces together. That's a causal fallacy, not an argument, and using it as one degrades the thread.

Third: the first line is not a rhetorical question. We don't know all of what she's up to. "I'm working on cleansing" isn't whatever she's hiding. This should have been obvious: the structure is "what are you up to that I wouldn't help with?", followed by listing all the stuff we think she is up to that we would help with.

Fourth: Rionna isn't obligated to take any evidence or reason for why we want non-seed cleansing and dewitching, and I'll be quite surprised if she doesn't take us at our word on them. If she doesn't then it's a no-cost to fix that next vote.









Regarding the "faith in Rionna" stuff: fine, but don't come knocking at my door if vocalizing assumptions about her pisses her off where stating belief in our own capability wouldn't have.


[X] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.
[X] Dig.
-[X] We hate what she's done, but we're figuring on her not having to do it anymore afterwards.
-[X] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
--[X] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.
--[X] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
---[X] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.
[X] Offer a cleanse.
 
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Personally, I prefer Aranfan's vote, because it's a honest and direct sentiment condensed in two sentences, that brooks no possibility of misinterpretation, yet leaves room for elaboration, should one desire. It also invites Riona to share her opinion with us, once again, but from a clear standpoint where two parties, namely us and her, will be able to state where they stand with each other. It also finally brings up Dewitching in a consistent fashion. I am thoroughly convinced we must bring up Dewitching, because that's the main reason we're talking to Riona. Not the only reason, mind, but pretty damn important, imo.

Aaaand ninja'd. By a catgirl, no less. Damn you, Naruto! Damn you and your Highly Visible Ninjas!
 
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Raiseth said:
. It also finally brings up Dewitching in a consistent fashion. I am thoroughly convinced we must bring up Dewitching, because that's the main reason we're talking to Riona. Not the only reason, mind, but pretty damn important, imo.
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There is no meaningful vote that doesn't accomplish this.

Raiseth said:
Personally, I prefer Aranfan's vote, because it's a honest and direct sentiment condensed in two sentences,
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People place an awful lot of emphasis on the number of lines as opposed to the amount of content. I haven't reorganized my vote to

[] Roll over her:
[] Counter her argument
[] Bring up cleansing
[] Bring up dewitching
[] Offer cleanse

because I feel that there's a loss of detail involved in that that isn't useful. But note that Aranfan's condenses to

[] Roll over her: (since she'll otherwise inevitably cut us off partway through, as she is wont to do when we talk moral stuff, which is fine if you don't want to get to dewitching)
[] Counter her argument
[] Bring up dewitching

If you think that's an appreciable difference, say so. Then I can shoot down your argument in a meaningful way. I have no ability to counter you saying "Oh! It's TWO SENTENCES!", because that has no appreciable meaning for the quest. So, I find it really frustrating that people are voting on the basis of Aranfan's vote being shorter. No, seriously, vote based on tone, what you think will be achieved, hell, morality even, whatever. All of those have tangible impacts on content.

If there are no repercussions for content, the only impact of vote length is on you. And because of that, the day people start judging things on how many sentences there are is the day all of my votes start having to be five words long.

We're well away from the realm of megavotes that are too long to comprehend. Get real.
 
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Kaizuki said:
If you think that's an appreciable difference, say so. Then I can shoot down your argument in a meaningful way. I have no ability to counter you saying "Oh! It's TWO SENTENCES!", because that has no appreciable meaning for the quest. So, I find it really frustrating that people are voting on the basis of Aranfan's vote being shorter. No, seriously, vote based on tone, what you think will be achieved, hell, morality even, whatever. All of those have tangible impacts on content.

If there are no repercussions for content, the only impact of vote length is on you. And because of that, the day people start judging things on how many sentences there are is the day all of my votes start having to be five words long.

We're well away from the realm of megavotes that are too long to comprehend. Get real.
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Alright. Let's "get real".

[] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.

Aranfan's vote has an advantage in that regard. Sabrina wouldn't have to roll over Riona to make her point. Because the point is succinct and takes just a few seconds to make. Half a minute, is my upper estimate. It doesn't spend time on making a bunch of assumptions about Riona, which well, my opinion on that is:

-[] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
--[] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.

An assumption, and a dangerous one. She said "I've tried to do what you did, everyone has". This might mean what you think it does, and it might also mean something different altogether. Like her having a good idea of a Magical Girl system, trying to Wish for powers to defend the Souls of Megucas from Grief, and getting an ability to rip Souls out instead, because such a Wish would have been waaay outside of her Potential, or anyone's, except for Madokami. ( or her supposed agent. )

What if she considers your assumption offensive? As in normal Grief Benders can only transfer Grief from one person to another, and you assume she experimented with their powers on people. That's a tall order, I agree, but I'd like to make as few assumptions as possible in a situation with so many things we don't know about her.

--[] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
---[] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.

And another assumption. Kaizuki, I frankly don't want Sabrina to start making like a Sherlock and drawing conclusions she has no supporting evidence of. Need I remind you, that our theory of her sister Witching out, roaming Edinburgh, whatever, is just that: a theory? We don't know. There could be other explanations. We want her help with Dewitching, and we have no idea what she wants.

An appeal to join resources will work only if we and Riona both have a clear understanding of what the other party wants. By bringing up that we want her help with Dewitching, we at least cover one part of this condition.

I didn't vote for Aranfan, because his vote is short and yours isn't. I voted for him, because I prefer his course of action to yours.
 
Raiseth said:
Alright. Let's "get real".

[] If you have to roll over her to get all of this on the table, do it.

Aranfan's vote has an advantage in that regard. Sabrina wouldn't have to roll over Riona to make her point. Because the point is succinct and takes just a few seconds to make. Half a minute, is my upper estimate. It doesn't spend time on making a bunch of assumptions about Riona, which well, my opinion on that is:

-[] What is she doing, anyway, that she can be so sure you wouldn't help with it?
--[] She's trying to work out "renewable" cleansing with all the dead grief controllers' powers, obviously. She said as much.

An assumption, and a dangerous one. She said "I've tried to do what you did, everyone has". This might mean what you think it does, and it might also mean something different altogether. Like her having a good idea of a Magical Girl system, trying to Wish for powers to defend the Souls of Megucas from Grief, and getting an ability to rip Souls out instead, because such a Wish would have been waaay outside of her Potential, or anyone's, except for Madokami. ( or her supposed agent. )

What if she considers your assumption offensive? As in normal Grief Benders can only transfer Grief from one person to another, and you assume she experimented with their powers on people. That's a tall order, I agree, but I'd like to make as few assumptions as possible in a situation with so many things we don't know about her.

--[] You figure she's working on dewitching in some capacity. If not, she's at least dabbled in it.
---[] Both of those are fairly high on your priority list, and she's blatantly shooting herself in the foot by working alone.

And another assumption. Kaizuki, I frankly don't want Sabrina to start making like a Sherlock and drawing conclusions she has no supporting evidence of. Need I remind you, that our theory of her sister Witching out, roaming Edinburgh, whatever, is just that: a theory? We don't know. There could be other explanations. We want her help with Dewitching, and we have no idea what she wants.

An appeal to join resources will work only if we and Riona both have a clear understanding of what the other party wants. By bringing up that we want her help with Dewitching, we at least cover one part of this condition.

I didn't vote for Aranfan, because his vote is short and yours isn't. I voted for him, because I prefer his course of action to yours.
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Thank you.
 
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