Excuse me.

*Kicks Raiseth into QQ*

*Is kicked into the QQ pit, but survives the experience and founds a warrior nation only to be brought low by new canon*

Whew.

Gotta say, I agree with Redshirt more here. Riona doesn't seem to open her heart up to us. I mean, yeah, there's a good girl making good decisions buried somewhere deep, deep under all the emotional baggage Megucas accumulate during their lives, but we won't get to that part of her in one conversation.

You could argue we didn't quite get there with Oriko and Homura, who we talk to on a regular basis and have a cheat sheet about in form of our metaknowledge.

I'm not sure we can afford to spend more time on attempting to establish rapport with her. She isn't overly interested and has developed a rather impressive outer shell to prevent such a thing from occurring.

So Redshirt's approach strikes me as a better one in that regard...
But I can't vote for it for some reason.

Mmmmmmm
Social, why are you so hard?! It's just talking to people!
Oh, wait, there it is.
 
[Q] It's true, Riona. You need to stop.
[Q] I'm certain you yourself don't want to keep doing this.
[Q] I can see it in your eyes, hear the self hate in your words, you want to stop.
[Q] You tell yourself that you need to keep at it, that you can't stop, but I really, really think you can, and you want, and you should.
[Q] I'm not gonna force you to stop now. I understand this bigger issue of yours is tied to your problem.
[Q] So I'm gonna help you solve it, and once we're done with that, you're gonna stop. OK?
[Q] It'll be easier then, right? Once this big secret of yours isn't hanging over your head, stressing you out more and more?
[Q] There's one thing I do need from you right now, though. It's very important you do this right now, it will make it much easier to stop later on.
[Q] Now, repeat after me: "I have a drinking problem."
 
Essay tomorrow. Have core, need to write arguments at length. WIP in notebook with Firn. I go bed now, hopefully.

Current:

[X] Null
 
This is super unhelpful. I want to edit my vote to address concerns, but I can't if nobody explains them. :(

I cannot pinpoint a reason. It just strikes me as something I am not to endorse, so I don't. Granted, I'm also a little tired and my judgement tends to suffer dramatically when I don't sleep for a long time. In other words, it's not you, it's me.

And well, I'll look over it again once I had a chance to catch some z's.
 
@Redshirt Army - O.K. Review mine, here is a criticism for you.

De-Witching must be on top. A transition sentence to turn onto that topic is the only thing I could excuse. I think it is the turning point, since we have come to here.

If we look back, Rionna has been locked into her head during our talk, not listening.
Sabrina is almost doing the same thing.

Break the deadlock by understanding the other person.

Even combatants must understand the other person to excel.

The two most logical ways to do this involve either putting de-witching forward, or offering safety to her.
We could try both.

Then, we could maybe hear something telling from her.

The problem with safety as a principle is that she HAS been the one shooting first. Saying safety conditions is still talking about fighting, just in the future. IMHO, she will not listen to any such from us.

De-witching is both value, and a fact that defines us as "not like the others."

Put de-witching first, find out what happens.

The only reason I didn't use the supplied prompt is a possibility to define the direction after that point.
 
I'm not going for mad, I just don't find a better descriptive word to use than 'bullshit'. :p
Well, Firn is often too busy to read the thread, and he's definitely not reading your mind, so you need to make your intent clear in the vote itself.

Honestly, your vote seems like it's going to provoke Riona rather than get her to agree to open up. It's got us speechifying at her, then going, "You wanted to say something?"
 
Well, Firn is often too busy to read the thread, and he's definitely not reading your mind, so you need to make your intent clear in the vote itself.

Honestly, your vote seems like it's going to provoke Riona rather than get her to agree to open up. It's got us speechifying at her, then going, "You wanted to say something?"
Redhirt's vote doesn't look bad, I think. I'll check what Kai puts up before editing vote.

For now.

[Q] Exit Sphere.
[Q] Hug Mami.
 
Or that she'll try to kill us because de-Witching attempts always end in tragedy and disaster.
She literally rips the souls out of people and keeps them around as lobotmized slaves. I don't think she's about to try to murder us in the middle of our territory before we've even done anything yet.
At any rate, I am voting to bring up de-Witching. I've been trying to bring it up more in a context like Narrator said:

Not just throw it like it'll solve everything, but make it part of an exchange. 'Exchange of trust' I think I put it in earlier vote versions.


I have to assume this is aimed at me, only because you didn't quote anybody else.

I want to see if Riona will say something sincerely for once; this whole conversation, she's been playing to her own preconceptions, taking refuge in thinking she knows everything that's happening and just staying in her protective shell, on the defensive.

I'd like to hear her explain the why of what she does, and why she's told us all his, from her mouth.

I'm pretty sure she firmly believes we won't help. That 'we can't' because we won't. She's going by past experience. In this and everything else she's said today. She knows nothing of our skill, which was just pointed out; she's judging us solely by our reactions to her throwing her crimes in our face.

We played perfectly to her preconceptions, like a puppet, and doing so, reinforced them.



[] Not a lie. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply after you've helped solve her problem.
-[] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
-[] But hold that thought...

[] She looks like she's got something to say?
-[] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
-[] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.

[] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
-[] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
-[] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually consider it.

[] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
-[] She'll stop killing people.
-[] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
-[] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
-[] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
--[] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.
Jesus fuck, Onmur. You only bring up deWitching if she agrees to a whole list of conditions. Until we bring up deWitching, she probably won't be interested in talking about the morality of her actions at all, and won't see the value in even humoring the topic. She's currently under the impression that there's nothing we are willing to offer her that she's interested in. She's probably on the verge of just calling it a day and leaving Mitakihara in the morning.

Acting like her own power is "fake" or "bullshit" is only going to make things worse.
 
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[x] Yes, her power freaks us out. That doesn't mean we won't help her. We've seen girls do a lot of terrible things to survive, and we didn't turn our backs on them either.
[x] Try to alleviate whatever concerns she puts forth:
-[x] If she doesn't believe that we'd help her out of the goodness of our heart, offer an exchange, because we want her help, too. Ever since Nadia told us there was a girl with soul powers, we've been hoping to meet her.
-[x] If she seem reluctant to share her secret with us, offer her a secret of ours as a show of good faith.
-[x] If she doubts our ability to help, say that it's far from the most ambitious challenge we're tackling.
[x] Use whichever response as a segue to bring up dewitching.
-[x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain it in detail: the sheer quantity of grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, the feeding of hope-flavored magic.
[x] We think she can help us and we can help her. Please. Let us help her.
 
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[X] Redshirt Army

You have my zone! I agree with whatshisface that dewitching should be higher on the list, but that's probably impatience. The conversation hasn't been going on that long, even if it feels like a very heated week has gone by in 5 minutes :V

So yeah. I'm liking your direction, further changes or no.
 
[X] Continue to try to coax out details about what she wants our power for. Would enchantments be sufficient? What does she want?

This one. I don't know why, just phrasing strikes me wrong somehow. Like an itch that I can't scratch.

[] Ask her what she would want our powers for exactly. Would enchantments be sufficient? What does she want? She could try telling you, and then you both can decide whether you'd be able to help her or not.

How about this? I'm not into votecrafting, English, words and talking, but I generally changed the phrasing so that Sabrina's actions and words would be more direct, an approach I've been propagating for some time now.
 
The bells had just finished ringing, and students were cheerfully milling past Sabrina and her friends as they waited by the school gates.

For once, Mami seemed to be the last one out.

"Thanks for the lunch," murmured Homura, holding out an empty bento for Sabrina to take. "It was..." the magnificiently haired girl seemed to mull over her what to say, before she finished with a firm nod and a "Good."

Sabrina held back a snicker, though some of the girls walking past were not so kind.

"Glad you liked it," the foreigner girl smiled, taking back the lunch box.

A shutter sound rang out, drawing their attention to a group of girls, who suddenly erupted into a giggling fit and skipped past the group.

"You're really popular, aren't you, Homura?" grinned Sabrina.

Madoka, Sayaka, and Hitomi shared a look.

"Uh, Sabrina..." the bleunette started, only for said girl to ignore her.

Instead, the white haired girl twirled in place to face the school proper with open arms.

"Hello- ack!"

Only for an accusing finger to stab at her chest.

"Who is she to you?!" hissed a furious Tomoe Mami.

All other sound died as Sabrina gaped.

"You hugged her! You made her lunch, Sabrina!" Mami shouted louder and louder, taking a trembling step forward and jabbing at Sabrina to punctuate her points.

All eyes went to the lunchbox still held in Sabrina's hand.

Another jab had Sabrina choke as she desperately tried to get a word in.

Tears gathered in the blonde's eyes. "Do you love her?"

"Of- of course I love her!" came Sabrina's indignant answer.

A sudden hush fell over the scene, Mami's stabbing finger flinched back, her eyes wide.

"She's my mom!" exploded Sabrina, arms gesticulating wildly, "what the hell! She's my mom!"

A long instant followed, Mami's mouth hung slightly open.

A multitude of eyes moved back and forth between the defensive, indignant, hurt looking Sabrina; the angry yet confused Mami, mouth hanging slightly open; and the completely out of her depth, wishing for the earth to swallow her, Homura.

Facts were rearranged, connections made, impossibilities waved away.

A collective 'Ohhhhh' went through the mass of students still hanging back to watch the drama unfold.

"W... whatever!" Mami buried her face on Sabrina's neck, holding the taller girl tightly.

Sabrina blinked, a miriad of emotions warring through her body, but did the only wise thing and held the blonde back.

"What just happened...?" she mused as everyone actually started to leave.

Mami just shook her head, her hair tickling Sabrina's chin, and started walking out and back home without letting go, forcing the taller girl to follow.

Madoka, Sayaka and Hitomi followed, the school yard becoming deserted except for one Akemi Homura, who stood still as if in shock, trying to process the scene she had just unwittingly taken part in.

As the girl's eyes stayed fixed on some point a hundred miles away, blinking in incomprehension, a gaggle of girls suddenly rushed back, swarming around her.

"I'm so sorry," one touched Homura's shoulder, almost making her flinch, "we didn't mean that," another one got way too close, "sorry about taking that picture" apologized one waving her phone, "we didn't know, it must be so hard!" the last one actually hugged Homura's back.

"... It's... fine," the magical girl bit out, standing rigid straight and trying to not tremble nor to shove the girl back to get her to stop hugging her.

Deep breaths.

Finally, the girl let go. "Wow, you really need a massage, Akemi!" "You're so stiff." "Maybe you can hang out with us?" "We know a really nice spa..."

Homura had to employ her entire arsenal of cold politeness, but finally the girls left with yelled invitations to hang out together.

The dark haired girl sighed, wondering what the hell had just happened.

A slow, repeated clacking sound drew the purple eyed girl's attention to a last straggler, one Kamijou Kyousuke just exiting the school, slowed down by his crutches.

The boy stopped besides Homura, shook his head, and shared a sympathetic smile.

"Girls are crazy, huh?"

Then he went on, leaving the bemused girl behind.



"How did it go?"

"Ohhhh, it was wonderful, and you won't believe what secret was revealed!"

"Did you get it all?"

"Yup. Of course I got it aaaaall on video for your viewing pleasure. After all, it was all your plan."

"Don't undervalue your own role, dear."

"Heh, who knew going back to school would be so much fun?" Kirika grinned.
 
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[X]The Narrator

@Kaizuki's analysis that had us bring up Rionna protecting something in Edinburgh let us make some headway in the conversation, but we've since hit another brick wall. I don't think we can make any progress with just promises or declarations here. We need another silver bullet to put Rionna off balance.

Part of me wants to literally shove Aurora in her face, and demonstrate the happy grief experiment to her. Maybe that will work, at the very least it will show her Sabrina can deliver when it comes to difficult and esoteric problems.

Alternatively, we could offer a different secret of our own, though I think only our origins would work, and it's difficult to explain that one without breaking Homura's trust. It might also convince Rionna that Sabrina is crazy.

In any case, I don't like any of the votes that simply continue the conversation on current terms. I don't think that will lead anywhere productive.
 
@Kaizuki's analysis that had us bring up Rionna protecting something in Edinburgh let us make some headway in the conversation, but we've since hit another brick wall. I don't think we can make any progress with just promises or declarations here. We need another silver bullet to put Rionna off balance.

I actually have another one of those atm, I'm just trying to work out how to put the essay down in words.
 
I want to gather some of the Rionna dialogue here for easier review., and then present a position. It seems we could negotiate from a "friendly unilateral" position for a while.

She is just that bad at negotiating that we have to play both sides for a bit. She is not able to transact the needed amount of information to gain trust.
Rionna is also terribly un-informed. She has no idea what we think, other than "don't like murder." Duh.
Helping people that you hate is an impossible thought for her right now. But we can break that.

#####

Let us be careful to remember what we have, and have yet to say to her.
You sigh as you sit down, Mami at your side. "I'm interested in working with you," you say. "There are... projects that require manipulations outside the scope of what I can do, but you might."


Be hard for me to not know. Why d'ye think I came here? It surely wasn't for your acquaintance."


"I want what everyone wants," Rionna says, and fixes an unblinking gaze on you. "I see people's Souls. I know what happens. I want what you have."


"Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."


"I..." you wet your lips. "I appreciate you being frank and upfront. I'll try and do the same - and, uh, if I'm monologuing, feel free to interrupt me at anytime?"


Rionna shrugs, eyeing you and uncapping her flask to take another swig.


"I want to create a better world," you say quietly, looking down at your hands. "Your previous actions might have been necessary at the time. I don't..."


Second chances.


"You don't judge me," Rionna says. "Y' have no right to."


"I... look," you say, grimacing. "I want magical girls to work together. I know things right now aren't ideal, but working together, with mutual support - I want there to be justice. Justice, protection, equity, accountability for magical girls so we don't all have to struggle."


"The thing is, I can cleanse Soul Gems and Grief Seeds," you say. "I can even empty Grief Seeds out to become Clear Seeds, like this."


"I... I'm sorry," you say. "I don't know you."


"Mm," Rionna says. "And you do not have trust in me. Understandable. You want me to not do what I do."


"Well..." you say.


"No," Rionna says. "I cannot."


"Cannot, or will not?" you ask, bristling. "Because I've got some ideas-"


"Cannot and will not," Rionna says. She drains her flask, tipping her head back for the last drops, and sets it aside. "You do not trust me. I don't trust you."


But here's how it is: You don't tell me how to do things, and I don't finish a fight neither of us want."


"I can't tell you how to act," you say, and meet her eyes squarely. "But whatever it is you're dealing with back home in Edinburgh, I can help you with it."


"You can't help me," Rionna says, shaking her head. "Go back to your girl, go back to your friends. Y' don't want this fight, neither do I."


"You're right. I don't want this fight, and neither do you,"


"So let's say that aside, and agree that I'm not trying to provoke you into a fight - and that you're not trying to provoke me into a fight."


"Mm," Rionna says, non-committal.


"But," you say. "I'm starting to think I want to help you with this. Why can't I?"


"D'you wanna give me your Soul?" Rionna says, with a rough snort. "No? You can't help me."


"Is that my only option?" you ask, raising your eyebrows. "Not to put too fine a point on it, my power has turned out to be a lot more versatile than my Wish would imply. I don't know what your problem is, but you don't know what I can do, either."


Something flickers across Rionna's face. Discomfort, maybe.


"Yes," she says.


"You know, I wouldn't put any preconditions on trying to help," you say, stomach flipping. It's not quite a lie. You don't like her or what she's done at all, but... Everything can be fixed. You have to at least try.


"Liar," Rionna says, completely without rancor. "Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop."

#####

We could say we aren't willing to murder her to make her stop. But we could work hard, and get to the same result peaceably.

She's "expecting things backwards," because she is defensive, asocial and selfish. These are adaptations to her issues as a magical girl. She honestly believes she could only solve her problem with her own power. Other people are as bad as she is, or worse. By abandoning all trust in other humans, she is trapped. We can't just leave her in her fate, for several good reasons. Therefore, I think changing her fate is worth our time
Is there any reason we cannot proceed forward without questioning her about her secret? That is the point. We could break into this defense two ways.

##### One, push proof of our position into her. Our position is that we DO help witches, and it is nothing new.
##### The other way would be to take her choice way, by raiding her secret, and (if correct) de--witching the sister without her consent.

I think option one is less controversial.
Or... Let's say the reason Rionna s trying to get Grief powers is to live freely? Or perhaps to become a mortal again? When she says "what everyone wants," the idea of saving witches is not a great match, only by limiting 'everyone' to the veteran population does this make sense.

What have we tried so far?
Telling her we have really good thoughts, and do good things.
We have proof of deeds, but we have yet to present it.
But hasn't seen moral proof, and she doesn't care to look for it. Baka.
We showed her a really good trick with our powers.
We tried falling for her self-judgment trap.


Further, Rionna has seemingly condemned herself already. She is the worst of the lot, in her own view. How do we get her to accept that we don't attack her for that? Become more extreme than her. We ARE in the right position. We freely try to aid witches. We imprisoned Anri, but we aren't trying to punish her - in fact, if Anri is in the same situation as Rionna, we have made the best choices possible. Even from Rionna's position. We are trying to protect witches from Kyuubey, by keeping them on this side of the warp gate. We cure evil with things other than evil.

Rionna still doesn't want to trust? And maybe never will?
More than that, Rionna wants radical independence? But that's OK, we WANT to give her our ability, not our soul. It doesn't matter WHO SHE IS, AT ALL. We want to make synthetic Grief cleansers, and we want other girls to be able to make them. We want witches to be turned back into girls everywhere. This should match perfectly with Rionna's interest. There Is Always A Catch, but this is normal - hard work is required, shortcuts - like stealing our soul - aren't acceptable. If she wants to never be a witch then all she has to do is work harder with us, be a proper apprentice, and get the power that way.

By changing the world, her criminal acts will no longer be justified. We will in fact want her to be better, but we aren't crazy. She isn't courageous, and she is stuck in her past, perhaps. We can make the first change, and it isn't a trade. No Magical Girls died by our acts in Sendai. That day Sabrina is aiming for will come, even without her. When Magical Girls all over Great Brittan do not need to hunt, there will be no more territory in Edinburgh. And there will be no more standing armies, or a need for defending her city. As long as she understands, that we will have a requirement upon completion. She has time to consider, and time to change.

I will iterate my vote later as time permits, or copy what you think applies and do it your own way.
 
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