Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

So I want to start with a strong counter to Riona's words.

Sabrina: You know, I wouldn't put any preconditions on trying to help
Riona: Liar. Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop.

[X] It isn't a lie. You want Riona to stop but you can settle for postconditions.
[X] But what is Riona's problem she keeps in Edinburgh anyway? Somthing to cleanse from grief? You're working on cleansing enchantments and can refresh Grief Seeds indefinitely. Dewitching? You've been working on that and gotten some results
-[x] If Riona shows interest or challenge us to our claim, bring the Clear Seed again and let her examine it. Explain technical differences between Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds (clear seeds feel calmer, etc). After that, insist on the question about what's in Edinburgh.

I think it needs a followup to the qustion on Edinburgh but I'm not sure if the Clear Seed is the answer.

Kkutlord said:

I feel silly for not realizing sooner, but what every magical girl wants is to avoid being a Witch.

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It's a possibility, but it may not be. After all it isn't necessarily true that every magical girl wants to avoid being a Witch, they must be witchbombed first.

Also some Magical Girls don't give a shit. Like Kagari. Or Lapin. or Quitterie.

I mean, witchbombed or not, every Magical Girl wants to avoid their Soul Gem blackening. Plenty of Magical Girls extort Grief Seeds or ignore familiars even without knowing what Witches are. The only types who don't care about being Witches are the ones utterly wrapped up in their issues. Ultimately though, my point was Riona wanting Sabrina's soul is because otherwise she'd be dependent on Sabrina's goodwill and indefinite survival.

Onmur said:

Updating wording a bit to leave Firn more freedom of writing.


[X] Ask her what she's talking about.
-[X] Encourage Riona to talk. Ask simple, prodding questions as necessary. Don't push too much.
-[X] Try to learn:
--[X] Riona's expectations, past and present.
--[X] Riona's reasons for her actions, and for telling us all this.

[X] Afterwards:

[X] Clarify: If she lets us help, we'll help.
-[X] We'll ask:
--[X] She stops killing while we work together.
--[X] After her problem is solved, she stops killing and releases the unwillingly taken Souls.
-[X] Ask her to consider letting us help. For real, none of this 'only way to help would be giving our soul' BS.
--[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually think about it.

[X] Meanwhile... ask if she can keep a secret. If so:
-[X] Bring up de-Witching.

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Christ, Onmur. Bringing up de-Witching is the one, KEY thing we need to do. It's almost certainly at the heart of her issue. And your vote has it as the last item on a list that's over a dozen items long.

Don't throw in a dozen preconditions before bringing up the key point. Bring up the key point first, and you can go from there.

Why are you guys making this so complicated? This is stupidly simple.

You're so fixated on the moral issue with her shades, and completely sidelining the actual, important reason for this entire meeting in the first place.

[X] Bring up de-Witching

SaltyWaffles said:

Christ, Onmur. Bringing up de-Witching is the one, KEY thing we need to do. It's almost certainly at the heart of her issue. And your vote has it as the last item on a list that's over a dozen items long.

Don't throw in a dozen preconditions before bringing up the key point. Bring up the key point first, and you can go from there.

Why are you guys making this so complicated? This is stupidly simple.

You're so fixated on the moral issue with her shades, and completely sidelining the actual, important reason for this entire meeting in the first place.

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I'm not so certain the de-Witchbomb will be quite the silver bullet we hope it'll be. If it does, great, otherwise, I think we still got chances of achieving some sort of win today.

I don't like how we've handled this so far, my own vote three updates back included. I'd like to hear Riona's side if we can, rather than play along to her expectations.

Onmur said:

I'm not so certain the de-Witchbomb will be quite the silver bullet we hope it'll be. If it does, great, otherwise, I think we still got chances of achieving some sort of win today.

I don't like how we've handled this so far, my own vote three updates back included. I'd like to hear Riona's side if we can, rather than play along to her expectations.

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I think what they mean is that given everything going on... bringing up de-witching in a straight forward manner right now is useful regardless of its it a silver bullet. If it's what she wants its a major breakthrough, if not then the fact that we are still working on it still changes the conversation and also gives us ideas on Riona in why she WON'T be interested in that.

Basically at thus juncture there is no reason to not bring it up quickly... no doubt the conversation will continue after the fact to continue the issue with the shades.

DB_Explorer said:

I think what they mean is that given everything going on... bringing up de-witching in a straight forward manner right now is useful regardless of its it a silver bullet. If it's what she wants its a major breakthrough, if not then the fact that we are still working on it still changes the conversation and also gives us ideas on Riona in why she WON'T be interested in that.

Basically at thus juncture there is no reason to not bring it up quickly... no doubt the conversation will continue after the fact to continue the issue with the shades.

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Well, I'm not in a hurry.

I kind of want to make the point that no, Sabrina looks set to stop Rionna from doing what she's doing regardless of whether Sabrina gets to help or not, so it's not a lie. That would push Rionna into fighting, though. Perhaps something like the following?

[X] Yes, you despise it. Your offer is not a lie, though.
[X] You simply believe that she has a reason for this.
-[X] And that if her problem is solved, she won't have that reason anymore. She'll stop.
[X] Are you wrong?

I'm inclined to think that the Dewitching thing is more a proof of competence at the moment. Sabrina still has to convince Rionna that she actually does want to help her, and that the price for doing so won't leave Rionna completely defenceless.

So this vote basically tries to do a few things. It addresses the apparent contradiction raised by Sabrina's half-truth. It probes Rionna for any reason she might have without asking her straight out. It puts the moral burden on Rionna, in that it's no longer Sabrina forcing her to stop - Rionna has to stop eventually of her own accord, or she's a terrible person. Finally, it leaves open the possibility of, well, attacking her if necessary.

My main concern is that she'll just refuse to acknowledge that she does have a reason even if she does have one, but not sure what can be done in that case, anyway.

Onmur said:

Well, I'm not in a hurry.

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Well I'm viewing it as a means to elicit new information in this case. Her reaction to de-witching or lack of reaction will be telling and thus inform us on how to proceed with actions related to.

[X] Sabrina helps everyone, even witches. De-witching research happening. We don't send them to Kyuubey already. Rionna isn't worse than a witch? We will help her.
[X] Before Rionna decides her end, explore the truth we are saying. Proof exists.
[X] Rionna must have used countless powers already. Another Shade can't help her.
-[X] What she needs is someone to cast the magic along with her, isn't it?
[X] The only way to move forward when one has done everything they could do is to do things differently than ever before. Sabrina is the person who acts in the way that won't hurt Rionna. Who else has helped with her problem?
[X] People don't do horrible things without reason. Force is almost always less effective than addressing the underlying problem, answering the reason..
[X] Anri is our example of morality, tell the story.

Reworked.

If she is solely lusting after her own cleansing, that discussion would be even easier. She would be playing right into our desires, we would have her next turn.
If she has a de-witching goal, we will find out with this vote. No more time for the pretty lead-in that was presented before.
If she has a radically different goal, I expect to hear her laugh, such that we will be glad the Privacy Sphere can contain it.

DB_Explorer said:

Well I'm viewing it as a means to elicit new information in this case. Her reaction to de-witching or lack of reaction will be telling and thus inform us on how to proceed with actions related to.

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This is exactly my position. We should do that.

I think the first thing we say is the most telling here. Correct? or irrelevant?
For those such as Onmur who might wish to debate the wisdom of the choice,
Can we break down our choices into a list?

Talk about de-witching, directly

Talk about incarnation, directly

Talk about both, indirectly

Neither; Talk about Sabrina's attitudes

Neither; Make a concession

Neither; Talk about Rionna

What outcomes do we expect for success or failure in each case?

NitroFumetsu said:

Right, is she rejecting a Clear Seed or isn't she?

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In a sense she is, because we have preconditions for giving out clear seeds, such as "Help other magical girls and pay it forwards" and "do not do that thing that is the literal opposite of that which you are still currently doing."

[X] Redshirt Army

Onmur said:

I'm not so certain the de-Witchbomb will be quite the silver bullet we hope it'll be. If it does, great, otherwise, I think we still got chances of achieving some sort of win today.

I don't like how we've handled this so far, my own vote three updates back included. I'd like to hear Riona's side if we can, rather than play along to her expectations.

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It doesn't matter if it's the silver bullet or not. It's the one thing that might get her interested in a working relationship with us (well, I suppose there's the possibility that she yanked the soul of her Witched sister or something, and she's trying to find a way to fix that, but even that probably involves deWitching, so...). If it doesn't work, then nothing will.

But trying to engage her on moral grounds is pointless right now. She doesn't care. We make it clear where we stand morally? She won't care, because it means that she just goes back home tomorrow regardless, and doesn't work with us or come to Mitakihara again. Unless we can pique her interest with something she actually wants, she doesn't really care about what we say.

She firmly believes that we can't help. Not that we won't help, but that we can't. Which probably means that she thinks we can't help with deWitching, which is a reasonable assumption to make regarding a Grief controller. We need to disabuse her of that notion ASAP, because otherwise she'll just write us off as a waste of time and leave Mitakihara for good.

Why did the Clear Seed interest her somewhat? Not because she needs it to sustain herself. It's probably because it is a quiescent form of a Grief Seed, which her sister probably is right now--thus, her sister being a Clear Seed is probably less suffering for her sister. Hence, why she's interested. It's no guarantee, but it's a fair shot.

[X] Onmur

As far as the vote goes, I think dewitching is better brought up as something we intend to do and gain help towards, rather than as a way we could help Rionna. The problem with it being a way to help is that it could cut too close to her insecurities if the "don't ask about her sister" thing is any indication. Like we're sounding out her weaknesses.

Beyond that, if her issue is permanent storage, and the clear seed does not cut it even after its ludicrous capacity has been explained, it might also be worthwhile to note the ethical cleansing idea.

As far as the vote itself goes, I like Kaizuki and Redshirts' proposals.


If I had to structure it all it would be something like.

Above all else, your raison d'etre is helping people. And if that's not something she trusts, she can trust that you want to work on dewitching and were hoping for someone that could aid you in that.


...But with more of the Redshirt&Kaizuki skeleton inserted into all of that.

The Phoenixian said:

As far as the vote goes, I think dewitching is better brought up as something we intend to do and gain help towards, rather than as a way we could help Rionna. The problem with it being a way to help is that it could cut too close to her insecurities if the "don't ask about her sister" thing is any indication. Like we're sounding out her weaknesses.

Beyond that, if her issue is permanent storage, and the clear seed does not cut it even after its ludicrous capacity has been explained, it might also be worthwhile to note the ethical cleansing idea.

As far as the vote itself goes, I like Kaizuki and Redshirts' proposals.


If I had to structure it all it would be something like.

Above all else, your raison d'etre is helping people. And if that's not something she trusts, she can trust that you want to work on dewitching and were hoping for someone that could aid you in that.


...But with more of the Redshirt&Kaizuki skeleton inserted into all of that.

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How would you explain Rionna's goals and limitations thus far? Would you try to paint a picture of her reactions to your desired vote?

My concept is to create an offer to her that does not require her to extend anything to us yet.

How will we establish a position she cares to buy into?
Does Rionna care about helping people who are not in her world? What does her evidence say so far?

[x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was pushed by circumstance to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
-[x] If I manage to help you, if the things you treasure are safe, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?

[x] My whole goal is to help people. And if that's not something you trust, then trust that I'm working on some really tricky problems -like dewitching- and would appreciate some assistance.

Redshirt Army said:

[x] I do want you to stop. But if I refused to help any magical girl who was pushed by circumstance to do something awful... there wouldn't be very many girls that I could help left.
-[x] If I manage to help you, if the things you treasure are safe, and if what you've done is no longer necessary afterwards... won't you want to stop, yourself?

[x] My whole goal is to help people. And if that's not something you trust, then trust that I'm working on some really tricky problems -like dewitching- and would appreciate some assistance.

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Is the very first item in your vote -referring to her Shades?-

"I do want you to stop." Placing that first sounds like an end-of-the-road to me. For the reason that Rionna is too invested in her past to debate that ATM.

IMHO, we should decide upon what we consider an acceptable thing to offer her, and prove it is without negatives from her view.

Offering de-witching is not a loss of position for us.

Can we prove that it is a free offer?

"My whole goal is to help people" sounds useful. Do you think that lining up proof behind that would make it stronger? I think de-witching is the proof of our commitment here, not a project she wants to share.
In the best outcome I'm seeing, we convince her that sharing this goal is something Rionna must force herself to do. It seems like she has no value of the other, and a small value of social order. If she wants de-witching, it isn't for "everybody," it is for her own narrow interest.

Her secret might be off of this track. But at least conducting ourselves in the style of define-and-offer may get further responses out of her. Trying to corner her in a moral bind, or talk about her morals at all, will just get further rejection as I see it.

Here's a thought:

Riona is reluctant to reveal her secret to us. What if we reveal a secret to her first? We want to tell her that we're working on dewitching, but what if we phrase telling her as a gesture of good faith we're making to earn her trust? She might be more willing to tell us something if she thinks of it as an exchange.

You know, if she can read our Soul like some Questers speculated, then her

Firnagzen said:

"Liar," Rionna says, completely without rancor. "Y' despise what I've done, and you want me to stop."

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Is a statement based on her complete understanding, and not an educated guess.

So we're running a risk of getting caught every time we say half-truths or decide to rules lawyering with our words.

Moreover, Riona seems like a person who appreciates honesty, if nothing else. I'm making such an assessment based on her own actions, or rather, that she was completely level with us on what she'd done.

But silly Raiseth, you would say, why didn't she tell us about Edinburgh then?

She didn't tell us, but she didn't try to mislead or deny there is something in her city, which at the very least shows she has little experience in dissembling. She also honestly told us to fuck off with that line of questioning, or else.

What I want to say is, maybe Sabrina's response needs to be honest in what she wants from Riona and honest in what she could do for Riona. And that Sabrina, as a character, wants to help every Magical Girl she can, so she's going to try to help Riona.

And no, I don't offer to ask her about her sister, that would be... unwise.

[X]Full Disclosure then.
-[X]You want to fix her justification for soul hunting/vigilantism because you despise it, but are willing to make your price conditional on you being able to deliver.
-[X]If her problem is dewitching related she's welcome to take a closer look at the clear seed to demonstrate your capabilities.
-[X]If you don't help you think her gem will blacken(nobody deserves that)
or the fight will happen.
-[X]You want her powers for clear seed/dewitching research and would prefer not condemning her to indefinite cryogenic stasis after a power copier takes them.

SaltyWaffles said:

It doesn't matter if it's the silver bullet or not. It's the one thing that might get her interested in a working relationship with us (well, I suppose there's the possibility that she yanked the soul of her Witched sister or something, and she's trying to find a way to fix that, but even that probably involves deWitching, so...). If it doesn't work, then nothing will.

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Or that she'll try to kill us because de-Witching attempts always end in tragedy and disaster.

At any rate, I am voting to bring up de-Witching. I've been trying to bring it up more in a context like Narrator said:

The Narrator said:

Here's a thought:

Riona is reluctant to reveal her secret to us. What if we reveal a secret to her first? We want to tell her that we're working on dewitching, but what if we phrase telling her as a gesture of good faith we're making to earn her trust? She might be more willing to tell us something if she thinks of it as an exchange.

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Not just throw it like it'll solve everything, but make it part of an exchange. 'Exchange of trust' I think I put it in earlier vote versions.

But trying to engage her on moral grounds is pointless right now. She doesn't care. We make it clear where we stand morally? She won't care, because it means that she just goes back home tomorrow regardless, and doesn't work with us or come to Mitakihara again. Unless we can pique her interest with something she actually wants, she doesn't really care about what we say.

She firmly believes that we can't help. Not that we won't help, but that we can't. Which probably means that she thinks we can't help with deWitching, which is a reasonable assumption to make regarding a Grief controller. We need to disabuse her of that notion ASAP, because otherwise she'll just write us off as a waste of time and leave Mitakihara for good.

Why did the Clear Seed interest her somewhat? Not because she needs it to sustain herself. It's probably because it is a quiescent form of a Grief Seed, which her sister probably is right now--thus, her sister being a Clear Seed is probably less suffering for her sister. Hence, why she's interested. It's no guarantee, but it's a fair shot.

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I have to assume this is aimed at me, only because you didn't quote anybody else.

I want to see if Riona will say something sincerely for once; this whole conversation, she's been playing to her own preconceptions, taking refuge in thinking she knows everything that's happening and just staying in her protective shell, on the defensive.

I'd like to hear her explain the why of what she does, and why she's told us all his, from her mouth.

I'm pretty sure she firmly believes we won't help. That 'we can't' because we won't. She's going by past experience. In this and everything else she's said today. She knows nothing of our skill, which was just pointed out; she's judging us solely by our reactions to her throwing her crimes in our face.

We played perfectly to her preconceptions, like a puppet, and doing so, reinforced them.



[] Not a lie. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply after you've helped solve her problem.
-[] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
-[] But hold that thought...

[] She looks like she's got something to say?
-[] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations.
-[] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.

[] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
-[] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
-[] Ask her to take a few minutes to actually consider it.

[] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
-[] She'll stop killing people.
-[] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
-[] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
-[] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
--[] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.

Stop killing people is a precondition much as I hate saying it.

[X] Partially concede her point. You suppose her continuing to take souls while working together would be an issue. You would not expect anything further unless you can deliver. You've got a laundry list of demands you expect her to comply afteryou've helped solve her problem.
-[X] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.
-[X] But hold that thought...

[X] She looks like she's got something to say?
-[X] Encourage her to talk. Dig at her reasons and expectations, both in speech and action.
-[X] Try to cut her off if she looks to go into a defeatist rant.

[X] Insist that you can help. It's your purpose, what you feel you were made for.
-[X] Help for real, none of that soul taking bullshit.
-[X] Ask her to take a few minutes to actuallyconsider it.

[X] About that laundry list. In exchange for your help:
-[X] She'll fully stop killing people.
-[X] She'll release the souls unwillingly taken.
-[X] She'll help a friend of us (Wish rejection).
-[X] She'll help us with a secret project, if she agrees to keep it secret.
--[X] If so, reveal de-Witching plans.

Conjured Blade said:

Stop killing people is a precondition much as I hate saying it.

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Yes, but we already went and said 'no preconditions'.

So...

-[X] And you'll stop her from killing anybody while you're working together.

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Just... say it isn't, then do our best to get Riona to not kill anybody?

If we wanted to be cold, the important thing is Riona agrees. Once we're there we could fudge the point. No killing wasn't a precondition, but we'll stop her from killing because killing is wrong. :/

(I'm not certain why we said 'no preconditions' when 'no killing' was a thing I thought we had agreed on. >_> )