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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kaizuki said:
We absolutely want to convince her to let go of all of her shades, for moral reasons. The catch is that we're totally willing to help her with whatever her problem is before she lets them all go.
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If the shades were capable of being confirmed as giving their informed consent of their own will, then her retaining that shade is alright. The issue isn't even her power being used to create shades, it's the way she's used it that's morally repugnant in the extreme.

Even if her shades can't be confirmed as giving their informed consent of their own will, then for the examples where there is a clear reason for deferring authority on the matter to Rionna (example being a relative or close friend who was incapacitated, but clearly would have consented if they could have) there's no real moral issue. It's not quite as formalized as Power of Attorney is in various legal systems, but we have a clear framework we can take inspiration from for dealing with the gray uses of her power.

So I'd say that if her sister is one of her shades, there's certainly grounds where even without an proper interview with her sister's shade, it being entirely acceptable to go "No, I don't have any problem with this".

The main issue I can see with checking with the shades is, well, how much could Rionna control their responses.

But no, speaking as one of the apparent hardliners, the issue isn't Rionna's power, it's how she's used it. I'm not going to argue that she needs to give up her sister, screw that.

EDIT: No, seriously, if that's what anyone thought was being argued for, then no, that's not the case. Hell, I'd spite-vote against someone who was arguing for that, because that's fucked up.
 
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She becomes an active Problem if she takes any more. I agree that best course of action for existing shades is to establish medical necessity or clear agency and consent, at which point them staying around is essentially comparable to living on a spaceship or something where someone else has the helm. The issue is that establishment, potentially up to epistemic uncertainty.
 
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@Kaizuki

You're vote's alright, but here's an editing pass. Feel free to take or leave sections as you prefer.

[x] Why can't you help her?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, or Rionna tries to leave, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, as long as they're willing to stop once it's not needed. It would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, assure her that you're able and willing to keep secrets even from very close friends - (gesture at Mami).
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, or if she asks what our interest in cooperation is, mention that you're interested in dewitching.
 
Vebyast said:
She becomes an active Problem if she takes any more. I agree that best course of action for existing shades is to establish medical necessity or clear agency and consent, at which point them staying around is essentially comparable to living on a spaceship or something where someone else has the helm. The issue is that establishment, potentially up to epistemic uncertainty.
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Yeah, figuring that out for her current shades would be a beast -- we'd basically need someone with magical lie detection or the like. If we're able to figure out a way to work with her, which would necessitate her no longer "collecting" more shades, then I'd be able to accept her keeping all of them we have a good way to prove whether or not they're able to give their consent.
 
[X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect things -- she wouldn't need to secure her city with a shade army, after all.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.
[X] If she makes to leave: break to voting.
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Redshirt Army said:
[x] Why can't you help her?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, or Rionna tries to leave, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, as long as they're willing to stop once it's not needed. It would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, assure her that you're able and willing to keep secrets even from very close friends - (gesture at Mami).
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, or if she asks what our interest in cooperation is, mention that you're interested in dewitching.
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[X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.
 
Vebyast said:
She becomes an active Problem if she takes any more.
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Godwinson said:
which would necessitate her no longer "collecting" more shades
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To clarify to avoid misunderstanding- if she takes any more shades without their consent, right?

And, if there's a situation against combatants where the other option (as in, the option that we, as Sabrina, have been forced to concede already, which is a high bar) is legitimately "shoot for the gem", then if shading someone and then releasing them into death (or, if the situation is bad enough, say, asking them where they're keeping hostages and then releasing them into death) is less dangerous than a straight fight- is that also a situation we're willing to cede forcible shading is acceptable for?

Or someone (not necessarily meguca, but aware of meguca) who is unsavably about to die, like, we-don't-have-a-healer-or-anyone-who-can-heal-fast-enough-to-deal-with-this-injury-on-hand gonna-die (.... which does grow unlikely since we have Homura on hand, given), and shading them in order to give them a chance at last words, or pointing to their murderer or some shit-

Just, trying to pin down where everyone is on this. Also, dunno, something about this is nagging me as situations I've seen somewhere, and it's uh making me want to clarify excessively.
 
Kaizuki said:
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
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Hmmm. Something about this section as it stands rubs me the wrong way.

Like, if you're concerned about working with someone because you don't want them to know something, and then they say they've mostly figured it out (with implications that they'll try to figure out the rest), well...

It doesn't make you more well disposed to that person, because you still don't want them to know something, except now it looks like they'll figure it out soon.

Like, depending on how paranoid protective Rionna is of her secret, I could legitimately see this vote chunk leading to an attack, and even in the more general case, I feel like it'll make her more bitter towards us and more begrudging with her cooperation.
 
Thoughts from Discord, re: The fact that Riona does not presently seem to display care about the morality or lack thereof of collecting shades; and the idea that her "collection" comment itself may give the impression that she has avaricious reasons to want to keep ahold of them beyond their present tactical value, and would thus object to releasing them into death or returning them to mortal bodies [paraphrased].

Though the shade collection is problematic, yes, I'll also say that while Riona might not care about the morality of it, or the lack thereof, that doesn't necessarily mean that she's a staunch "will be against returning them" type either- she could very well not care, but if we give her a reason that it's more practical to release them, then we may not have a fight in that regard. I also don't necessarily want to make an assessment of her view of her shades as a "collection" in the sense of "possessively attached to them for avaricious reasons beyond their practical value" based on just this conversation- she had to decide to call them something, and she doesn't seem like the type to declare them her "Terrifying Ghost Army". A somewhat wry term like "collection" is not an awful option for someone looking to call them something as a collective of "shades that I am controlling that I think are or am lying about being insensate".

Also, someone doesn't need to care about the morality of something, or believe in the morality of something, in order to decide to act morally or in a way the people around them declare is 'moral'.

(Also, she could totally still be in "I'm not thinking about it, ever, because if I did it might bother me enough to kill me" mode, or a lesser version of the same.)

Additionally- though it's been somewhat implied that Riona might first need to physically incapacitate or kill a meguca to swipe their soul, so that it's unlikely there would be a case where that would be easier than just straight up killing them- in that case, I'd want to posit whether, if she's in a situation where we'd judge lethal force justified in the first place, that we'd also accept Riona temporarily shading the soul of whoever she killed- whether to use their powers in the present situation or not- and then releasing them after the situation is over, or after we've spoken with them/gotten last words/etc.

While the general case is definitely that we want Riona to stop killing people and swiping their souls, I'm mostly just wanting to be explicit about the fact there are edge cases to be aware could come up. Or Riona could start on the whole "throwing dilemmas into our face to try and provoke us into getting mad or not being able to answer her, thus using that to justify not agreeing to work with us" thing again. Not necessarily expecting it, but wouldn't be surprised either.

... and that's about all the poorly organized thoughts there that I got.

... I'm still getting a lot of deja vu about the possible edge cases for Riona's powers. It's bugging me. It feels like something we're forgetting that's going to come up one or two updoots from now. But heck if I can remember what it is. *grumbles*
 
Redshirt Army said:
Hmmm. Something about this section as it stands rubs me the wrong way.

Like, if you're concerned about working with someone because you don't want them to know something, and then they say they've mostly figured it out (with implications that they'll try to figure out the rest), well...

It doesn't make you more well disposed to that person, because you still don't want them to know something, except now it looks like they'll figure it out soon.

Like, depending on how paranoid protective Rionna is of her secret, I could legitimately see this vote chunk leading to an attack, and even in the more general case, I feel like it'll make her more bitter towards us and more begrudging with her cooperation.
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I agree with the problematic phrasing. Maybe it can be folded into the previous line?

Kaizuki said:
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
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Even if what she's doing is super horrible, we would help as long as she stops doing bad things, and if there's anything really wrong going on, we'd like to help make it better just because we're out to fix things.
 
Funny theory: what if Riona's power is reactive? ie, if someone tries to use magic on her, she can absorb their soul?

So then she comes to us, and she says:
* hello, I am the soul stealer
* I am being deliberately rude to you
* I have an army of people I enslaved and you don't get to judge me for it
* oh dear, when I'm in your privacy field I'm completely cut off from all my shades, I am sooo vulnerable right now

It might also be true that she's made a Moral Decision to only steal the souls of people who attack her.
But I think the "reactive power" version works well with her claim that she's only enslaved Bad People.
It also would explain her apparent confidence, in walking into our privacy field and trusting us not to alpha strike her.
 
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Vote renovated. More applied power.

Vebyast said:
She becomes an active Problem if she takes any more. I agree that best course of action for existing shades is to establish medical necessity or clear agency and consent, at which point them staying around is essentially comparable to living on a spaceship or something where someone else has the helm. The issue is that establishment, potentially up to epistemic uncertainty.
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Yup. If she opens real negotiations. Vetting her shades, OTOH, - - is there a Miracle Max enchantment? ::rimshot::

Redshirt Army said:
Hmmm. Something about this section as it stands rubs me the wrong way.

Like, if you're concerned about working with someone because you don't want them to know something, and then they say they've mostly figured it out (with implications that they'll try to figure out the rest), well...

It doesn't make you more well disposed to that person, because you still don't want them to know something, except now it looks like they'll figure it out soon.

Like, depending on how paranoid protective Rionna is of her secret, I could legitimately see this vote chunk leading to an attack, and even in the more general case, I feel like it'll make her more bitter towards us and more begrudging with her cooperation.
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Just so, sir.
The cure is to present a menu of choices that do not include any actual reference to her issue.
Tip part of our cards to her. We can risk this.
I'm under the impression she has a lie detector. She HAS to trust her lie detector somewhat, and that will work for us.

Given her aloof and isolated attitude, we need to punch through very hard. Speak her language. NO conditionals.
I think she may have years of powers-discrimination stuck in her mind.
Ah, if only we could have Sakura come here and give us a common enemy....

[X] Deliver points with force. Counter her negatives.
[X] Tell Rionna that we need to make a soul gem. Her soul vision is important.
[X] We are not fighting her. Punishment isn't our only response.
[X] State that saving absolutely everybody is our goal. Helping is our strength. Even strangers.
[X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
[X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
[X] Proof - We can visit Anri.
[X] Body fabrication is possible. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
[X] Explain we understand perfectly the evils Magical Girl life leads her to do, whatever they are. Nothing new to see here.
[X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time to deal squarely with us. Her wish is right here.
[X] We can almost communicate with witches.

Instead of that, we have an example. Visit Anri in her hideaway, kill two birds with one stone. We have proof of our morals, just as sure as hers. Use it.

If she is either resurrecting or de-witching someone, the first three points should apply. If she needs de-witching, the follow on points will apply, but not if she wants to return a shade.

We don't trust her with the Clear Seed, because we don't know if she would save this girl yet.

I'm still going with the dual-meaning of "her collection." Both her stolen powers / soldiers, and the catalog of her sins. Remember, she has to charge them to keep them.
 
Just a reminder of where we left off the conversation:
Firnagzen said:
"You can't help me," Rionna says, shaking her head. "Go back to your girl, go back to your friends.
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This doesn't read as hostile to me. This reads as "Go back home and be happy, down this path lays only misery." Rionna didn't find what she was expecting, and now she doesn't want to get a good person involved in her shit. She throws some vaguely threatening remark on the end, but her heart's clearly not in it.
 
I think it may be important to come back to this part here - some of it has been brought up before, but I feel it's important to reiterate:
Firnagzen said:
Rionna sighs, taking another long pull from her flask. "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."
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This is very early in the meeting with Rionna, long before Sabrina starts developing a strong dislike of her. Though yes, she is irritating before that, but not so much on moral grounds. And yet, that's her immediate response. It means that beyond the issues raised in the conversation with Sabrina, it's not just about trusting Sabrina - it's about trusting anyone at all. It's a very binary response: "The power I want isn't transferable, I'm not willing to fight her to take it, so this trip was a waste." I'm going to make a guess here (again) that Rionna has a (still not very nice) moral code - I've already argued that, and there's various other things like the way she talks about Grief manipulators which seem to suggest this. And that's something that's making kill Sabrina - the girl who has the power she wants and probably sorely needs - a line she doesn't want to cross. I think it's very easy for her to argue that the typical Grief manipulator probably deserves it, because there are few things nastier than a power that has few applications other than Witching someone out (the beneficial possibilities notwithstanding). But it's harder to argue that with someone who seems generally like a good person, whose power doesn't work that way, and has shown up to the meeting with a girlfriend she obviously cares about. Someone whom she's specifically mentioned in the last line.

The thing is though, it's a trap. There's no way she can get the powers she needs without either breaking that code or accepting help. She won't ever get an opportunity better than this. It's simply not possible, and it looks like she's going to throw it away. I kind of dismissed bringing this up before when someone else mentioned it, but maybe it is worth saying in some part? That in fact, some things cannot be done alone, even if people you trusted have betrayed you before?
 
HeroCycle said:
I support we need to keep these top of our list:

### "Trust" is foreign to Rionna.
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PhDEevee said:
it's not just about trusting Sabrina - it's about trusting anyone at all.
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This fits with my ideas. For a while now.
HeroCycle said:
Our way out of that is to demonstrate that the lonesome road isn't the only road.
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How else do we agree?

Do you have different thoughts on how to penetrate her state of mind right now? That is what I am most focused on.

[One] Deliver points with force. Counter her negatives.
[Two] Tell Rionna that we need to make a soul gem. Her soul vision is important.
[Three] We are not fighting her. Punishment isn't our only response.
[Four] State that saving absolutely everybody is our goal. Helping is our strength. Even strangers.

Please comment. Is this able, or what would be required? Did this contradict the result we want?

I think having a talk about the power of trust is not going to open her up yet. Her guard is way too strong.
 
PhDEevee said:
I think it may be important to come back to this part here - some of it has been brought up before, but I feel it's important to reiterate:

This is very early in the meeting with Rionna, long before Sabrina starts developing a strong dislike of her. Though yes, she is irritating before that, but not so much on moral grounds. And yet, that's her immediate response. It means that beyond the issues raised in the conversation with Sabrina, it's not just about trusting Sabrina - it's about trusting anyone at all. It's a very binary response: "The power I want isn't transferable, I'm not willing to fight her to take it, so this trip was a waste." I'm going to make a guess here (again) that Rionna has a (still not very nice) moral code - I've already argued that, and there's various other things like the way she talks about Grief manipulators which seem to suggest this. And that's something that's making kill Sabrina - the girl who has the power she wants and probably sorely needs - a line she doesn't want to cross. I think it's very easy for her to argue that the typical Grief manipulator probably deserves it, because there are few things nastier than a power that has few applications other than Witching someone out (the beneficial possibilities notwithstanding). But it's harder to argue that with someone who seems generally like a good person, whose power doesn't work that way, and has shown up to the meeting with a girlfriend she obviously cares about. Someone whom she's specifically mentioned in the last line.

The thing is though, it's a trap. There's no way she can get the powers she needs without either breaking that code or accepting help. She won't ever get an opportunity better than this. It's simply not possible, and it looks like she's going to throw it away. I kind of dismissed bringing this up before when someone else mentioned it, but maybe it is worth saying in some part? That in fact, some things cannot be done alone, even if people you trusted have betrayed you before?
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You were talking about refining one of my older ideas?(Included here for convenience of the other readers)

[]Neither of us want a fight. That's why I'm not leaving. I'm the first lead you've had in years. Either your gem blackens or you psyche yourself into trying to steal my soul. I've tasted a Witches despair firsthand. You don't deserve it. Nobody does.
​
 
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Random idea:



"Is this necessary?"

"Yes!"

"Why?"

"Because I want to have pictures of my friends, Homura. I got group pics, and already got single pictures of everyone else."

"Do I have to pose like this?"

"Yes."

"Why?"

"Because it makes you look cut- cool!"

"... Fine."

"OK, now do a hair flip, and..."

*Hairflips*

*Snap!*

"Holy shit."

"Let me see- wow..."

"It actually captured the magic-"

"-Of the hairflip!"

"It's like it's moving..."

"Like a GIF, almost."

"But better."

"Magically..."

"It's gonna look great in the posters Oriko wanted."

"Posters...?"

"... Uh..."

"Oriko...?"

"UH..."

"You mean for the program to reach out and help meguca?"

"... Yes."

"And you... want to use me..."

"Your image! You know, since your hair flips are magical, we thought maybe they could attract magical girls, or at least gather some attention..."

"..."

"... I also wanted to send a copy to Madoka."

"..."

"Is she OK?"

"You check, I think she might bite me if I get close right now-"

"No."

"... No to the posters, or no to-"

"No to anything Oriko had any part in."

"Aw. And about Madoka?"

"... Fine."

"Yes!"

"..."


"Eeeeeeeee she's so cute! Thank you! How did you convince her to keep the picture? I tried taking some but she always deletes them. Homura's really shy like that..."

"Ah, the power of bargaining."

"What did you bargain?"

"Simple. By presenting a much less prefereably possibility first, the idea of keeping this picture became much more acceptable by comparison."

"Hence asking Homura to be our poster girl."

"More tea?"

"Please."

*Nods absently*

*Pours tea*

"You know... now I kinda want that to... happen."

"I'm sorry to say we've calculated the odds of Miss Akemi accepting that use of her image around one-point-thirthy-three percent."

"Repeating."

"Aw."

"Very similar to the odds of Oriko and Kirika surviving if Homura finds out you're having tea at their home."

"I won't tell her! Promise!"

"You know, what with the magical effect, that picture could become a pretty decent meme on 2chan-"

"Kirika no."
 
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Conjured Blade said:
You were talking about refining one of my older ideas?(Included here for convenience of the other readers)

[]Neither of us want a fight. That's why I'm not leaving. I'm the first lead you've had in years. Either your gem blackens or you psyche yourself into trying to steal my soul. I've tasted a Witches despair firsthand. You don't deserve it. Nobody does.
​
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Yes, my previous objections to how you've set this up withstanding. The way I would probably put it might go something like:

{} You don't want this fight, because it's a line you don't want to cross, isn't it? I haven't attacked you and nor do you think I deserve to die.
{} Nor is it that I can't help you. It's because what you're trying to do is so important to you that you're not willing to take the risk to trust me.
{} But I'm your best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe you've been betrayed before, but there are things you just can't do alone, no matter how determined you are. No matter how strong you are.

I don't know. *shrugs*
 
PhDEevee said:
I think it may be important to come back to this part here - some of it has been brought up before, but I feel it's important to reiterate:

This is very early in the meeting with Rionna, long before Sabrina starts developing a strong dislike of her. Though yes, she is irritating before that, but not so much on moral grounds. And yet, that's her immediate response. It means that beyond the issues raised in the conversation with Sabrina, it's not just about trusting Sabrina - it's about trusting anyone at all. It's a very binary response: "The power I want isn't transferable, I'm not willing to fight her to take it, so this trip was a waste." I'm going to make a guess here (again) that Rionna has a (still not very nice) moral code - I've already argued that, and there's various other things like the way she talks about Grief manipulators which seem to suggest this. And that's something that's making kill Sabrina - the girl who has the power she wants and probably sorely needs - a line she doesn't want to cross. I think it's very easy for her to argue that the typical Grief manipulator probably deserves it, because there are few things nastier than a power that has few applications other than Witching someone out (the beneficial possibilities notwithstanding). But it's harder to argue that with someone who seems generally like a good person, whose power doesn't work that way, and has shown up to the meeting with a girlfriend she obviously cares about. Someone whom she's specifically mentioned in the last line.

The thing is though, it's a trap. There's no way she can get the powers she needs without either breaking that code or accepting help. She won't ever get an opportunity better than this. It's simply not possible, and it looks like she's going to throw it away. I kind of dismissed bringing this up before when someone else mentioned it, but maybe it is worth saying in some part? That in fact, some things cannot be done alone, even if people you trusted have betrayed you before?
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It's kind of late, but I could resume what I understand of the situation like this (and see if anyone points anything I missed):

- There's a sister-related flustercuck going at Riona's city.

- Going by the "neither of us want a fight" lines, meguca who find out Riona's deal probably tend to attack her, to stop her, and she ends up killing them and shading them.

- Riona probably is the only meguca in Edinsburgh, because she ended up killing or chasing away all meguca this way. Also, at this point, she might need the whole city just for her Soul Gem's upkeep.

- This sets her on a mentality of "if they find out, I'll have to kill them" - "I have to deal with this alone". Notice how Riona came here for our power, not for our help. And she listed out the ways she could get our power, and why they wouldn't work, as you quoted.

(Possibility: Grief Control Enchantments? Requirements: Trust, time.)

- In order to cope, Riona adopts the behavior she's shown. Rude, and throws all her sins at your face. Great way to check if you have morals, which would mean you'll probably object to Riona's hidden practices, and end up in a fight, and end up a shade.

We've made it clear we disagree with Riona's practices, so... I'm really hoping the de-Witching thing pans out miraculously.
 
PhDEevee said:
Yes, my previous objections to how you've set this up withstanding. The way I would probably put it might go something like:

{} You don't want this fight, because it's a line you don't want to cross, isn't it? I haven't attacked you and nor do you think I deserve to die.
{} Nor is it that I can't help you. It's because what you're trying to do is so important to you that you're not willing to take the risk to trust me.
{} But I'm your best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe you've been betrayed before, but there are things you just can't do alone, no matter how determined you are. No matter how strong you are.

I don't know. *shrugs*
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It has consistent flow.

IMHO, your vote needs to specify how it will be delivered past her -nope- barricade.

Please convert to a voting syntax, and ekcs it in? Good ideas should be voted.
 
We shouldn't forget we also want Riona to look at Oriko's soul.

And Niko asked us to call her after we met Riona.



By the way, while the thread was locked, I updated Sabrina's full name.

I haven't updated it since start of may, last year, and wow, Sabrina's name has grown 28% longer!

Sabrina Onmur Ugolino Muramasa Redshirt Army UbeOne Torgamous AuraTwilight Gadjo Firnagzen The Narrator Kaizuki Godwinson Cannongerbil Vebyast Random832 Sereg Krecart landcollector LostDeviljho 'Lement SynchronizedWritersBlock defenestrator boonerunner Higure Crasian01 Agent Whiskers Aranfan Dirtnap DB_Explorer o3o SaltyWaffles EtchedSteel Guilop RexHeller Karnewarrior FlatlineAskari Kinematics Raiseth TheEyes theauthor The Phoenixian justinkal cmwatford aeqnai Jackercracks Lordsservent TechSY730 FelOnyx MrLZRS Slith10 Jonen C Appletank Madou Sutegobana CompassJimbo angelofwhim Skelm thagguy Loktarogar Knightfall AnonymousRabbit Always Happening rikalous ........ bird_poison Omegastar noahgab1133 CornyBones Hannz chocolote12 Loops Conjured Blade HeroCycle Rei of Sunshine mCooperative SpeckofStardust PhantomFractions NephyrisX Scrpt Mak3r JarringToaster Tam Lin Sailor Midgard linkhyrule5 Shadowhisker Mister Bad Guy TheFanficAddict universalperson blast flame Xexilf inverted_helix redzonejoe Baroque UberJJK LendvaV Kai Merah akrasiel23 moonstne Dragontrapper jacobplm GonnaSneeze ctulhuslp TheSlayers PhDEevee Marla sightedjt Choo Choo BlackoutSampler Mandabar Imrix Hypervene Silver GiftOfLove kinigget Phigment Filraen Julian Bradshaw NSMS Briefvoice Sightsear Spicier-Angel Retsof mistfist Atosen Diomedon NemoMarx The3rdCorinthian Rook Marcus.D.Basterd TotalTemplar03 RazorBlaxe celdak Lone Courier 6 CapnQwerty Echo Red Bovine Vinyl Jrin Nolrai Racoras veekie query Demosthenes DracoDracul AramilOniasha Emdeman Subrosian_Smithy Ompa60 Alfa290 DschingisKhan undead frog rkyeun pantherasapiens Duskwitch ultima333 Carinthium FeepingCreature Winged Knight khfan21 Omniatrix Faraway-R Mecrazyfang Spectral Waltz EvaUnit01 TJSomething Jiven Motile Mollusc Balduran Roomba NitroFumetsu NormalSightMan QTesseract Einsig nekcihc Dantalion NavySeel UrsaTempest ImmortalsBlade Ernest352 Tiroth PoptartProdigy Schwer-Muta ArcadianPhoenix Lilithium Cavalier Krekalie obssesednuker LadyLynn Wirikidor Kkutlord zxzx24 The Oldman Boobah Drasis Fair Letters veteranMortal Quest ex143 Aerhyce StellarMonarch Andmeuths Yarudazuigu Lexica TheOneMoiderah dredloki Lovnag RagnorakTres Lord K 4Dname Deathbybunnies Qwertystop Zeroth Jupi DrZiztah Vulture9 Shadows Ethereal Vitali Watcher017 Rellow Always Late argentorum Demojay Blorp Kinruush Unhacker Gnarker Sasha Dark Mage Origami Clock Draggon73 Drox crowbar MiracleGrow sopchoppy Unclouded Tiypo Garlak LanceGT0 Romka SolipsistSerpent plotvitalnpc E1Christ0 Corundum Recurrence VilimL ThoughtMaster Sole Purpose Jakobstj PlanckConstant NotAlwaysFanfic qsurf Askasknot FromTheFuture Walker of the Yellow Path skaianDestiny kylina Aran Zeminir Lord Chungus matthew badger Genial Precis Shadowward artanis00 BeaconHill Pi In The Sky MrCogmor silentspirals Battleship_Fusou LightMage Tricia itmauve Zedman7054 Norad the Borad Ralathon Snow wykel Chesire Wheeness TyrantYuyuka Z000 Arkanian GardenerBriareus Rem Nele Evilness42 JDite Zun Sketchy Lurker Xon 2005004219 Faith Crvt CV12Hornet flacyosh Dead-Not Elephant Parade mastigos Jun-Sa Unitveras banjo2E Jakinbandw 065tdsa Swimmingly yidgamer anailater Swirly592 Nictis Grigori Unlucky Bibliophile 1234q1234q TankD115 Sovereign Hunt Stormhawk9891 plinths Enhas Euryale krahe nanashi HymnOfRagnarok tarrangar DungBeetle SoothingCoffee Rayv Model DC.14F AsuraKyoko Ivan the Not-so-Terrible sargentorion Verminlord Pumparum ObsidianWings aattss Takareer Eliwan Dream Logic Doctor Akemi Metaflare MagusBlack Phant0m5 SilverRune Teiwaz AlphaDelta Valkhir Clandistine1 LoreOfClarke WSR apeljohn ChronOblivion huhYeahGoodPoint agumentic Garaichu Nachtigall Dessard dnzrx Felius crankers kanemi random_npc Akasha Atomic Aztec Xicree Guessmyname Spector29 Eprlide ArachnidsGrip BunnyLord Kyrina Taji Kitsune Shadowhope Baron Ouroboros Mortifer GilliamYaeger Logos ShadowAngelBeta Fluffiness dai1313 Dreitus Uncreative memoryofglory Doctor_Hayden Dion Rictek FallenPears PulsarObserver Khaos lava beard of sorrow James Birdsong Lord Marshal Windlass UnnamedDude Dragonjackel Strange9 Blast TheDamnedDesire Beyogi Wzd_JA I just write Kelirapc Katahiraga Nuts! Cruadin eternaleye Froggie arsdraconis abyssmal_kismet nexuseye Blaflaix Corncake DeepWaters Silver719 Stevie SomeOneElse007 Shironi ghoohg Private Lee O'Malley Valor xenondestroyer korat56 meganeshounen Vikram TheBleachDoctor Ophion DivinePotato990 ranmatoushin IProbablyForgot No One NuclearNickel FORTHEYOLOZ buffog Blink Card Captor Iron Roby Mykenae tankdrop24 drake_azathoth tzeench Zarohk Drik93 Nervos Belli Manic Dogma adreamofcold Stormwhite ManusDomine NeverDies LunaticRabbit Rapey_Lemons The Grim Squeaker ScalesLikeCinder Axel Fones Konork physxman LazyLayabout HoodedHero007 RioVenaFeth StoneSaint Anann Golden Lark Admiral Skippy Gideon020 HalaNisu TheGreatFluffy Sinsystems Feng Lengshun Torisuke Fierdin horngeek ThatOtherGuy The Sylentnight HIMP_Dahak meianmaru Wootius Incandescent Vilegrave FelSpite PolosElite23 King_Rule Lost Egos Magictoaster lavanderjasmine Felipe Melo Bobalo18 Vocalend ApocalypticFish Kioras Alivaril NGSoares somnolentSlumber Black Pawn TMTM™ Keldin NotUmika Waffelmeister 10032 Scarlet Storm Saltman WanderingTwix Tempera Ford Prefect cokerpilot Fantabulous Hammerheadcruiser DuskAtDawn Dermonster EmpirePlayer al103 ω₁ Quantumboost Dinya Insufficient Dakka NexysDhyArchen beowolf MoonlightSpark wdango pressea Magnive Dirty Socks DiceOfStupidity Senquorin Mr. Mica Glitchrr36 Stdioh SiriusA TheRuisi Virath Zako Mugi kenhikaru Inf0mercial chrisleech HavocKeeper Saotome Nakazawa Sinarblood Equable MobiusC Abodmuthkat Deaths8Ball magicdownunder Solacen 2xMachina Faenrir FlynnRidder Warer Textines redfoxdelta Edelhart QuantizedOne98 powergoat Eotyrannus Eckert Mellithae Newix Skyllian Blitz Swordomatic Havocfett Eukie Aleph Jemnite foamy NonSequtur ChaoticAwesome lancelot Bulldog18 Verdigris GaleBread Evillevi MacroDaemon runeblue360 Zhead Cetashwayo newgman AIER Avalanche Goldenlima Feuerklinge Orm Embar Castor draconas Uvigz Lamashu TheAkashicTraveller Satisfaction Doom12394 Arck1334 Ellf Reading king Sieses Detkrah Xomniac SVNB Backup Heruelen Endfall HelmettoKid HalcyonHeartbeat Sevarak thatavidreader Silvrose SixPerfections John Smith Sonohara Valor XIV tarv Yamato devo342 Amancai TitanFrost OneirosTheWriter ZeroForever Tazzzo Riero Generic_Generica Thalton Jraven What A Day ProperAttorney Dorryza Joem20 JoeStratnoff Khettien sum ergo cogito Compellor torac Omniscient Trees CynicalCoffee Kuromei RavensDagger StylizedPenguin Verthelion bladesbane Schitz ghostlySmile Mrcrazyattire Mathen57 Solariopa Ronear Vee
 
Onmur said:
We shouldn't forget we also want Riona to look at Oriko's soul.

And Niko asked us to call her after we met Riona.



By the way, while the thread was locked, I updated Sabrina's full name.

I haven't updated it since start of may, last year, and wow, Sabrina's name has grown 28% longer!

Sabrina Onmur Ugolino Muramasa Redshirt Army UbeOne Torgamous AuraTwilight Gadjo Firnagzen The Narrator Kaizuki Godwinson Cannongerbil Vebyast Random832 Sereg Krecart landcollector LostDeviljho 'Lement SynchronizedWritersBlock defenestrator boonerunner Higure Crasian01 Agent Whiskers Aranfan Dirtnap DB_Explorer o3o SaltyWaffles EtchedSteel Guilop RexHeller Karnewarrior FlatlineAskari Kinematics Raiseth TheEyes theauthor The Phoenixian justinkal cmwatford aeqnai Jackercracks Lordsservent TechSY730 FelOnyx MrLZRS Slith10 Jonen C Appletank Madou Sutegobana CompassJimbo angelofwhim Skelm thagguy Loktarogar Knightfall AnonymousRabbit Always Happening rikalous ........ bird_poison Omegastar noahgab1133 CornyBones Hannz chocolote12 Loops Conjured Blade HeroCycle Rei of Sunshine mCooperative SpeckofStardust PhantomFractions NephyrisX Scrpt Mak3r JarringToaster Tam Lin Sailor Midgard linkhyrule5 Shadowhisker Mister Bad Guy TheFanficAddict universalperson blast flame Xexilf inverted_helix redzonejoe Baroque UberJJK LendvaV Kai Merah akrasiel23 moonstne Dragontrapper jacobplm GonnaSneeze ctulhuslp TheSlayers PhDEevee Marla sightedjt Choo Choo BlackoutSampler Mandabar Imrix Hypervene Silver GiftOfLove kinigget Phigment Filraen Julian Bradshaw NSMS Briefvoice Sightsear Spicier-Angel Retsof mistfist Atosen Diomedon NemoMarx The3rdCorinthian Rook Marcus.D.Basterd TotalTemplar03 RazorBlaxe celdak Lone Courier 6 CapnQwerty Echo Red Bovine Vinyl Jrin Nolrai Racoras veekie query Demosthenes DracoDracul AramilOniasha Emdeman Subrosian_Smithy Ompa60 Alfa290 DschingisKhan undead frog rkyeun pantherasapiens Duskwitch ultima333 Carinthium FeepingCreature Winged Knight khfan21 Omniatrix Faraway-R Mecrazyfang Spectral Waltz EvaUnit01 TJSomething Jiven Motile Mollusc Balduran Roomba NitroFumetsu NormalSightMan QTesseract Einsig nekcihc Dantalion NavySeel UrsaTempest ImmortalsBlade Ernest352 Tiroth PoptartProdigy Schwer-Muta ArcadianPhoenix Lilithium Cavalier Krekalie obssesednuker LadyLynn Wirikidor Kkutlord zxzx24 The Oldman Boobah Drasis Fair Letters veteranMortal Quest ex143 Aerhyce StellarMonarch Andmeuths Yarudazuigu Lexica TheOneMoiderah dredloki Lovnag RagnorakTres Lord K 4Dname Deathbybunnies Qwertystop Zeroth Jupi DrZiztah Vulture9 Shadows Ethereal Vitali Watcher017 Rellow Always Late argentorum Demojay Blorp Kinruush Unhacker Gnarker Sasha Dark Mage Origami Clock Draggon73 Drox crowbar MiracleGrow sopchoppy Unclouded Tiypo Garlak LanceGT0 Romka SolipsistSerpent plotvitalnpc E1Christ0 Corundum Recurrence VilimL ThoughtMaster Sole Purpose Jakobstj PlanckConstant NotAlwaysFanfic qsurf Askasknot FromTheFuture Walker of the Yellow Path skaianDestiny kylina Aran Zeminir Lord Chungus matthew badger Genial Precis Shadowward artanis00 BeaconHill Pi In The Sky MrCogmor silentspirals Battleship_Fusou LightMage Tricia itmauve Zedman7054 Norad the Borad Ralathon Snow wykel Chesire Wheeness TyrantYuyuka Z000 Arkanian GardenerBriareus Rem Nele Evilness42 JDite Zun Sketchy Lurker Xon 2005004219 Faith Crvt CV12Hornet flacyosh Dead-Not Elephant Parade mastigos Jun-Sa Unitveras banjo2E Jakinbandw 065tdsa Swimmingly yidgamer anailater Swirly592 Nictis Grigori Unlucky Bibliophile 1234q1234q TankD115 Sovereign Hunt Stormhawk9891 plinths Enhas Euryale krahe nanashi HymnOfRagnarok tarrangar DungBeetle SoothingCoffee Rayv Model DC.14F AsuraKyoko Ivan the Not-so-Terrible sargentorion Verminlord Pumparum ObsidianWings aattss Takareer Eliwan Dream Logic Doctor Akemi Metaflare MagusBlack Phant0m5 SilverRune Teiwaz AlphaDelta Valkhir Clandistine1 LoreOfClarke WSR apeljohn ChronOblivion huhYeahGoodPoint agumentic Garaichu Nachtigall Dessard dnzrx Felius crankers kanemi random_npc Akasha Atomic Aztec Xicree Guessmyname Spector29 Eprlide ArachnidsGrip BunnyLord Kyrina Taji Kitsune Shadowhope Baron Ouroboros Mortifer GilliamYaeger Logos ShadowAngelBeta Fluffiness dai1313 Dreitus Uncreative memoryofglory Doctor_Hayden Dion Rictek FallenPears PulsarObserver Khaos lava beard of sorrow James Birdsong Lord Marshal Windlass UnnamedDude Dragonjackel Strange9 Blast TheDamnedDesire Beyogi Wzd_JA I just write Kelirapc Katahiraga Nuts! Cruadin eternaleye Froggie arsdraconis abyssmal_kismet nexuseye Blaflaix Corncake DeepWaters Silver719 Stevie SomeOneElse007 Shironi ghoohg Private Lee O'Malley Valor xenondestroyer korat56 meganeshounen Vikram TheBleachDoctor Ophion DivinePotato990 ranmatoushin IProbablyForgot No One NuclearNickel FORTHEYOLOZ buffog Blink Card Captor Iron Roby Mykenae tankdrop24 drake_azathoth tzeench Zarohk Drik93 Nervos Belli Manic Dogma adreamofcold Stormwhite ManusDomine NeverDies LunaticRabbit Rapey_Lemons The Grim Squeaker ScalesLikeCinder Axel Fones Konork physxman LazyLayabout HoodedHero007 RioVenaFeth StoneSaint Anann Golden Lark Admiral Skippy Gideon020 HalaNisu TheGreatFluffy Sinsystems Feng Lengshun Torisuke Fierdin horngeek ThatOtherGuy The Sylentnight HIMP_Dahak meianmaru Wootius Incandescent Vilegrave FelSpite PolosElite23 King_Rule Lost Egos Magictoaster lavanderjasmine Felipe Melo Bobalo18 Vocalend ApocalypticFish Kioras Alivaril NGSoares somnolentSlumber Black Pawn TMTM™ Keldin NotUmika Waffelmeister 10032 Scarlet Storm Saltman WanderingTwix Tempera Ford Prefect cokerpilot Fantabulous Hammerheadcruiser DuskAtDawn Dermonster EmpirePlayer al103 ω₁ Quantumboost Dinya Insufficient Dakka NexysDhyArchen beowolf MoonlightSpark wdango pressea Magnive Dirty Socks DiceOfStupidity Senquorin Mr. Mica Glitchrr36 Stdioh SiriusA TheRuisi Virath Zako Mugi kenhikaru Inf0mercial chrisleech HavocKeeper Saotome Nakazawa Sinarblood Equable MobiusC Abodmuthkat Deaths8Ball magicdownunder Solacen 2xMachina Faenrir FlynnRidder Warer Textines redfoxdelta Edelhart QuantizedOne98 powergoat Eotyrannus Eckert Mellithae Newix Skyllian Blitz Swordomatic Havocfett Eukie Aleph Jemnite foamy NonSequtur ChaoticAwesome lancelot Bulldog18 Verdigris GaleBread Evillevi MacroDaemon runeblue360 Zhead Cetashwayo newgman AIER Avalanche Goldenlima Feuerklinge Orm Embar Castor draconas Uvigz Lamashu TheAkashicTraveller Satisfaction Doom12394 Arck1334 Ellf Reading king Sieses Detkrah Xomniac SVNB Backup Heruelen Endfall HelmettoKid HalcyonHeartbeat Sevarak thatavidreader Silvrose SixPerfections John Smith Sonohara Valor XIV tarv Yamato devo342 Amancai TitanFrost OneirosTheWriter ZeroForever Tazzzo Riero Generic_Generica Thalton Jraven What A Day ProperAttorney Dorryza Joem20 JoeStratnoff Khettien sum ergo cogito Compellor torac Omniscient Trees CynicalCoffee Kuromei RavensDagger StylizedPenguin Verthelion bladesbane Schitz ghostlySmile Mrcrazyattire Mathen57 Solariopa Ronear Vee
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It brings me great joy to see my name in there.
 
Off topic, but I am really glad we can read witch names

Because I am pretty sure that soul stealer who summons shades of dead is the closest a meguca has come to looking like Walpurgisnacht in this quest


...


Please tell me her sister isn't part of a mega witch that resulted from the actions of a grief manipulator

Edit:
The more I think about it the more plausible it seems that
-Sister wishes for something, eventually learns about witches' true nature
-(Faux) Grief controller sells the sister snake oil, resulting in a (honestly-probably-not-mega) witch
-Riona wishes to pull her sister out of a (probably-not-mega) witch,

If Riona already has her sister as a shade, then she might not think that de-witching is a viable goal for her. She might just want anti-grief powers to extend her and her sister's life span.

Honestly though, there isn't anything in the quest that really supports this line of speculation.
 
Last edited:
Building of PHDEevees idea and going for symmetry/a display of honesty/trust.

[x]Realize that ignorance may be a necessary part of Riona's survival strategy.
-[x]You won't start the fight, because there's a lot you can excuse in the name of keeping a gem clean(you tasted witch despair firsthand and nobody deserves it), and you haven't actually enabled her to stop yet. No matter how much you may want to seize her power for dewitching research and have her cryogenically frozen.
[X]Riona doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and she doesn't think you deserve to die. Yet you're still probably the best lead she's ever had.
[x]Stopping blackened gems is more important than your indignation so try you.
 
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