No action or inaction on Sabrina's part caused those emptied souls of teenagers to despair. In fact, it's the opposite: clear seeds are calmer then grief seeds.

Also, we are looking on ways to stop relying on grief/clear seeds.

The absolutely moral action here would be emptying them and storing them somewhere secure until we figure out Dewitching.
Anything less than that and we enter the fine grounds of moral finagling and compromise.
 
The absolutely moral action here would be emptying them and storing them somewhere secure until we figure out Dewitching.
Anything less than that and we enter the fine grounds of moral finagling and compromise.

That would cause more magical girls to witch out, making it less than absolutely moral.
 
You know, Kyouko wanders around talking about humans as literal food in the MG/Witch law of the jungle style ecosystem. If Riona acts callous about the souls, I really don't think we can judge her for it. We need more time with her. And her expertise at de-witching could be really useful.

Perhaps a compromise? We continue to work with her so long as she doesn't enslave more souls, but we let her keep the ones she has, since she apparently needs them to feel secure. It's unreasonable to ask someone to give up the majority of their power base and trust totally to the goodness of a stranger after all. With any luck, as trust develops, we'll be able to persuade her to release the rest of her souls.
 
A couple of things to say right now, and I need to go to the bank.

Do we want to take a hard stance?

[] "People aren't things to be collected."

It probably would sour any attempts at talking further, but this is the point about whether we can work with Riona, or not.

I don't think this would prompt a fight. We could take defensive measures, but I still doubt Riona's motives are Obviously Evil.




Riona doesn't want to budge and she's clearty baiting us. But I very much doubt she has a counter for Homura's timestop.
If Homu bumps into a ghost and that pulls the ghosts into timestop, that might be troublesome.
 
That would cause more magical girls to witch out, making it less than absolutely moral.

I was starting to agree with you, but there is a way, actually!

Just convince Homura to go around on a worldwide Cleansing trip! In timestop! Every day!

Forever and ever

Until we figure out Dewitching and Grief Cubes.
Unrealistic? Yes.
Absolutely moral? Heck yes. :V
 
I was starting to agree with you, but there is a way, actually!

Just convince Homura to go around on a worldwide Cleansing trip! In timestop! Every day!

Forever and ever

Until we figure out Dewitching and Grief Cubes.
Unrealistic? Yes.
Absolutely moral? Heck yes. :V

Ah but that's not a way because Homura kills us then herself halfway in hour 2332 of the first day.
 
That would cause more magical girls to witch out, making it less than absolutely moral.

Like they said, finagling and compromise.

Given that we've had more time to talk, I'm tempted to gem her but not kill her just to make a point, but the odds that we wouldn't be able to gem her that fast followed by the odds that she would take it a second a commencement of more lengthy hostilities rather than a single point being made are unacceptably high.

If we do start a fight here, we want to win it in literal fractions of a second (not accounting for timestop of course).

That and there are the diplomatic repercussions to think of.

I like the tone of the votes that lean towards expressing disappointment and asking why she's so willing to just back off and leave. I will remind people though, she came here expecting a false grief cleanser because that's all she ever knew before. She literally did come to kill us on the expectation that our powers were a lie.

Now that she's been proven wrong, she really doesn't have anything else to do here. She didn't come for infinite cleansing, she came expecting to be performing a debatably-righteous smiting and has now been informed that said smiting is unnecessary. Paladin arrives, finds out there's no justice to be dispensed, but gets asked by a local mayor if she wants to stick around and do healing instead of carrying on their wandering campaign of smites.

Actually to be fair to the metaphor, we haven't brought up dewitching yet, so it's less 'heal instead of smite?' And more 'stop smiting' with an implicit 'or else' in there.

When you look at it like that. Is it any wonder she's saying no?

So yeah, let's bring up dewitchification first.
 
Have we figured out what Riona wants from us? We're assuming it's cleansing or something, but if high school taught me anything, it's to never assume nothing.
 
Have we figured out what Riona wants from us? We're assuming it's cleansing or something, but if high school taught me anything, it's to never assume nothing.

Well the only other possibility I can imagine is dewitching. Oriko said we shouldn't bring up her sister, right? Maybe her sister witched?

That'd certainly also explain her harsh stance towards false grief cleansers.
 
Clear Seeds are human souls, and we treat them like property. We use them for our own ends and give them to others as gifts for them to dump grief into. If someone--quite rightly--told us to that the use of Clear Seeds was immoral and that we must stop using them and recover all the ones that we've given away, would we immediately comply?


I'm also fairly sure that she has some counter that she believes is sufficient to defend against us.
She fights griefbenders on the reg. We may not have had time to enchant the anti-soul magic defenses we wanted, but she's had years to create anti-grief magic ones.

I doubt her current level of grief usage is the norm. She's probably actively maintaining some sort of power to cancel ours in case we attack.


I wonder if Sayaka could copy her powers from inside a Time Stop? That way, if we do decide to kill her, we'd still access to her Soul Magic for our de-witching efforts.
No, Sayaka would have to touch her, which would bring her into timestop.



EDIT:
Well the only other possibility I can imagine is dewitching. Oriko said we shouldn't bring up her sister, right? Maybe her sister witched?
All the more reason to bring up dewitching to her promptly.
 
Clear Seeds are human souls, and we treat them like property. We use them for our own ends and give them to others as gifts for them to dump grief into. If someone--quite rightly--told us to that the use of Clear Seeds was immoral and that we must stop using them and recover all the ones that we've given away, would we immediately comply?
I would say that they are absolutely correct, but until we manage an alternative grief cleaning method that doesn't involve souls, we don't have a better option. Once we do, we'll get on that.
 
At this point, I strongly feel that a direct attack is a bad idea.

Rionna is very confident, despite being cut off from her shades. It could be a bluff, but I think we have to assume that her soul yank can be done *very* quickly.

And Sabrina's reflexes are poor by meguca standards. Even if Firn doesn't flat out have her kill us, trying to gem her while right in front of her, without having made any of the soul protection griefhax or enchantments we easily could have prepared?

I think if we try to quickdraw on her, even if we don't outright lose, we could suffer permanent soul or gem damage. And with Rionna's abilities, being able to sense hostile intent is very likely possible.

I think what we have to do is:

[x] Keep Rionna talking.
-[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?

[x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
-[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
--[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
 
I'm not necessarily arguing against the idea but if we get Rionna to keep talking while telling them to bring us into timestop you just know firn is going to bring us in at an inconvenient time.

"The real reason for *all of this*, everything I've been doing is tha-" Suddenly Rionna turns grey as you enter into timestop.
 
x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
-[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
--[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
Given that she isn't going to immediately leave or kill us after the conversation we can afford to put off thinking about this until after we get out of her estimated range.
 
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I find rionna to be more like a jaded prison warden who's jail is filled with deathrow and life term convicts. Except she is also the judge jury and executionor too. Which we are against.
 
[X]I think you're provoking me so you can get my power guilt free. I could use an insurance policy assuming dewitching research bears fruit to preserve my power but you already have an idea what that would cost. The power copiers I've met can't do it.
-[X]Do you want to join me in dewitching research?
-[X] If yes, tentatively agree to work together for that one day and adjourn to update your friends on the situation.
-[X] If not, 'I think we've talked enough for the day, and I need to confer with the rest of my team anyway. You have permission to remain in Mitakihara until your return flight, but if you reap any souls I will fucking shatter you. Feel free to contact me again if you actually want to do business.'
 
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I'm honestly thinking she's playing up how bad her powers are to get the inevitable judgement out of the way as quickly as possible

She saw that we reacted in the usual fashion and promptly tuned out everything we said as just more of the same bullshit she's dealt with time and time again

Or do you really think we're the first people to try this?

Point is, she wanted us to judge her

And we enthusiastically obliged
 
If Homu bumps into a ghost and that pulls the ghosts into timestop, that might be troublesome.
If Madoka is killed by being run over by a car while she's watching us talking with Riona, that might be troublesome too.

Try again.

[ ] Keep Rionna talking.
-[ ] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?

[ ] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
-[ ] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
--[ ] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
---[ ] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
I think it needs a better timing on when we want to start the timestop: is this supposed to be a bluff? Then start timestop ASAP; is Sabrina supposed to listen to Riona? Then prepare Mami+Homura to have timestop on a hair trigger, then listen Riona and call timestop when needed
 
I would say that they are absolutely correct, but until we manage an alternative grief cleaning method that doesn't involve souls, we don't have a better option. Once we do, we'll get on that.

Rionna didn't have a better option for suppressing really evil MGs than shades. The way I see it, admitting she doesn't need to do it anymore would be admitting that she did horrible things to those people and the resulting guilt would crush her. I believe that is why she is retreating into her shell, being so defensive and refusing to let go of the shades.

Of course, I am being very charitable towards her. That is very on purpose. Everything can be fixed. Do not give up on this girl.
 
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