And if we'd made the opposite choice we wouldn't be in this situation. The cardassians will only move when they think us incapable to respond. Therefore to stop them we must act even then. To wait for the right time will avail us nothing, because when the right time comes they'll sit tight and make nice until our next moment of weakness.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
If the Harmony was not sitting on the border ready to sway a bunch of system while we are occupied I would say go for it. As it is we don't have the groundwork to stop the invasion without outright invading the Pact, and this not a good enough pretext for that.
If the Harmony was not sitting on the border ready to sway a bunch of system while we are occupied I would say go for it. As it is we don't have the groundwork to stop the invasion without outright invading the Pact, and this not a good enough pretext for that.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
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[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
They're simply too far away for us to do this without more lead time.
That said, we need to be able to confront the Cardassians better than we currently are able to. Therefore, there are a number of things that I think just became a critical priority for the snakepit. I'm also expecting a serious increase in the threat level.
1) Starbase at Hacitorus. We need to put more defenses in front of Rethelia in a major war.
2) Order a diplo-variant, I'd prefer the Prepler. Simply, we don't need huge numbers of fleet scouts, so Centaur-Bs and cruisers are better off being preserved for war. We need these ships so we can get more war-capable ships out of task forces on the Horizon border. Notably, we need the Apiata ready to fight.
3) Order a combat frigate, either a purpose-built one or a Shooting Star type ship. Council is unlikely to love it, but we need our proto-Defiant. Once researched, we need them in the CBZ, S-CBZ, and GBZ, and in numbers. We've got to be able to respond immediately to any more of this.
4) Academy expansions. If possible, some kind of larger academy expansion. We need more ships, and now that means more crew.
5) Additional resources.
6) An official defensive alliance with the ISC. They're more willing to put phasers over Cardassia Prime than we are, but we need an alliance more than that concerns me.
7) Position large numbers of mines and sections of pre-fab bases forward. In a war with Cardassia, we need time to put Federation REFORGER into action, and fixed defenses buy time.
8) Get the member ships we need to get the Gorn, Alupii, and Urr'azzi onside. Additionally, start pushing the Ashidi towards membership. The faster they're members of the STO building photon lance cruisers, the better.
9) Start work on one of the S9-10 D9-11 scout/skirmish proposals. We've got to stay ahead.
We're unprepared for war right now, or I'd be pushing for intervention, but we need to be prepared in the future. We've got to have ships ready to go, all the way from Indoria to Rigel.
They're simply too far away for us to do this without more lead time.
That said, we need to be able to confront the Cardassians better than we currently are able to. Therefore, there are a number of things that I think just became a critical priority for the snakepit. I'm also expecting a serious increase in the threat level.
1) Starbase at Hacitorus. We need to put more defenses in front of Rethelia in a major war.
2) Order a diplo-variant, I'd prefer the Prepler. Simply, we don't need huge numbers of fleet scouts, so Centaur-Bs and cruisers are better off being preserved for war. We need these ships so we can get more war-capable ships out of task forces on the Horizon border. Notably, we need the Apiata ready to fight.
3) Order a combat frigate, either a purpose-built one or a Shooting Star type ship. Council is unlikely to love it, but we need our proto-Defiant. Once researched, we need them in the CBZ, S-CBZ, and GBZ, and in numbers. We've got to be able to respond immediately to any more of this.
4) Academy expansions. If possible, some kind of larger academy expansion. We need more ships, and now that means more crew.
5) Additional resources.
6) An official defensive alliance with the ISC. They're more willing to put phasers over Cardassia Prime than we are, but we need an alliance more than that concerns me.
7) Position large numbers of mines and sections of pre-fab bases forward. In a war with Cardassia, we need time to put Federation REFORGER into action, and fixed defenses buy time.
8) Get the member ships we need to get the Gorn, Alupii, and Urr'azzi onside. Additionally, start pushing the Ashidi towards membership. The faster they're members of the STO building photon lance cruisers, the better.
9) Start work on one of the S9-10 D9-11 scout/skirmish proposals. We've got to stay ahead.
We're unprepared for war right now, or I'd be pushing for intervention, but we need to be prepared in the future. We've got to have ships ready to go, all the way from Indoria to Rigel.
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- madison
ergh, that's not a bad point. fuck it.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
the ISC and the horizon are going to throw in with us, and I would be unsurprised if there was someone the Cardassians shared a border with who they feel a need to keep an eye on. Might as well have this shit go hot while we have support from 2 other powers.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
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- USoA
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
It's illogical but I want to at least try.
It's illogical but I want to at least try.
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- Aotearoa
C7 S5 H4 L6 P4 D5 115 BR 85SR O2E4T3 2.5yrs is one frigate possibility we could order in this snakepit.
Similar capability to an Excelsior-A for about half of all relevant costs, and not a complete loss as a generalist response frigate either. However, I also note it's pretty similar to the Renaissance-A, but again cheaper on materials, time and crew.
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2324.Q1 - Chrystovia - Part II
Paris
Two Hours Later
The President has tasked you, and High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs Vrrasa M'Sheer, to do some more followup work as you all contemplate the intervention. Nothing is set in stone; and all the consultations are under the highest security. Ambassador Melek of the Horizon, a slim Lintrid with an absolutely exquisite facemask, arrived at Starfleet headquarters via a secured transporter, directly into the High Command offices.
When the Cardassians had declared war, the ISC were the first to reach out, stating that the Federation had to intervene. Anything less, in their eyes, was pure spineless appeasement, given their evaluation of Federation strength. The Harmony approached you a little later, just before the meeting with President Okaar. They were a little more circumspect, but they let their offer be known and clear. Now you needed to know the conditions of that agreement.
You and Vrrasa lay out your concerns to Melek. You note the ongoing conflict in the HBZ, the tense tug-of-war you've been playing with possible affiliates. You and Vrrasa let it be known politely, but firmly, that for you to consider Chrystovian intervention, this would likely need to stop.
The Lintrid takes this all in, nodding, eyes barely visible but clearly engaged. He unbuttons his suit and leans forward, "Listen, friends," he drawls, "I gotta ask -- what's this talk about... struggle, conflict. You're acting like we're in some sort of showdown. Some sort of war where we conquer people using words. That's not the case here. We're making friends, you're making friends. We are having a debate. There are winners and losers in a debate sure, but it's not life and death."
"So," you say, "If it's not life and death, surely we can set it aside? We'll have to draw down, and you--"
"Draw down." Melek stretches out the words, "What a military word for a non-military mission of peace. And don't throw that conspiratorial stuff about the Peacekeeper fleets getting involved at me. It's hypocritical coming from Starfleet, which is -- how did your Pike once put it? A peacekeeping and exploratory armada?"
Vrrasa flicks an ear, "I'm getting a feeling of hostility, here, Ambassador. We don't mean to upset you."
"I understand that. And I'm sorry if my demeanour is off-putting. I want to find the best solution for everyone. But I can tell you now that the Harmony of Horizon does not see this as a conflict. And while I cannot say for certain, I am fairly sure that my superiors will not 'draw down' our diplomatic and outreach operations. We're all making friends in our mutual neighbourhood. I see no reason for that to stop."
"I see." You say. "I'll be frank, that does complicate matters."
The Lintrid chuckles. Slowly he stands up, taking you and Vrrasa by surprise. "I see." He says, "The Interstellar Commonwealth was right. You cowards are going to weasel your way out of this one, aren't you? Because you view us as a hostile threat, no?"
You are genuinely taken aback. You haven't been spoken to this way by a non-Tellarite public offical in...
You're actually not sure when.
Vrrasa stands up, putting her hands together, "Ambassador, please. If we can't remain civil, we won't be able to find a solution."
"Damn your civility," the Lintrid growls, "I will be sent back to Horizon for this, but it's time to cut through the bullshit. You treat us like enemies when a vile agglomeration of oligarchs and dictators threatens to topple a democratically elected government, and put their people under the yoke of Tyranny. You had a chance to save Bajor and now they only whisper of suffering. Don't lecture to me about 'diplomatic conflict' and 'good manners' when preserving liberty itself is on the line!" He begins walking towards the door, "I will be censured for this. But Harmony will listen to my reccomendation. A Peacekeeping group is coming to help the Chrystovians. You can admit them into your borders and light the way for them to save a people from darkness, or you can turn them back and prove every rumor about your Federation's empty morality."
And with that, he storms out. The meeting is over. You connect a few hours later with the new Ambassador, a smooth-talking Horizonian. He apologizes profusely, but confirms what Melek said -- the Harmony is aware that time is of the essence, and so they have sent the Peacekeeping fleet towards Federation space.
They stress, however, they will respect the border. The Horizonian adds, quite pointedly, they don't want to be seen as a threat.
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So, I've been lurking on the thread for a while now, and while I wont vote I do want to throw in my two cents- we have to intervene.
As had been stated before, the Federation is incapable of starting wars of aggression and the Cardassians know this- if we back down now, they can repeat the trick at leisure until they have absorbed enough polities to make any war with them unwinnable via massive casualties.
Secondly, the Harmony- I agree with @SynchronizedWritersBlock that if the Harmony truly wants to intervene they will call off the diplowar temporarily, but the truth is that, while pulling ships from the border will result in a victory for them, the same will happen if we stand by and do nothing; the federation will be revealed as a useless pack of liars who gave up while the going got tough, while the noble Horizon at least tried to do something- and while I am not sure of distance, aren't they drawing forces from the border too? In short, they will milk it for everything its worth, and may win the diplowar as polities lose their faith in our good intentions ( a good example for me are the romulans, who already feel like we stand by when people are suffering, or the ISC).
What i feel we should do is send a task force and meet up with the Horizon and ISC fleets- while it is true that we cannot make a difference in the war before Chrystovia falls, if we get there before the Cardassians can force vassalisation the appearance of a massive fleet may be enough to force a Cardassian withdrawal from Chrystovian space, preventing a permanent occupation (or send humanitarian aid convoys to rebuild devastated cities?). If they call our bluff then, it is 3v1. In short- we cannot save the Chrystovians, but we can conduct damage control while improving our PR at the same time. As for the ships that may be destroyed.... well, the Federation has always prided itself on the morality and strength of its crews even in the face of death- that is the purpouse of the Kobiyashi Maru test.
*rant over* sorry guys, but I feel really strongly about this- if we give up now, we give up on the ideals that make Star Trek the most optimistic Sci Fi setting around
Edit: Ninja'd by update
As had been stated before, the Federation is incapable of starting wars of aggression and the Cardassians know this- if we back down now, they can repeat the trick at leisure until they have absorbed enough polities to make any war with them unwinnable via massive casualties.
Secondly, the Harmony- I agree with @SynchronizedWritersBlock that if the Harmony truly wants to intervene they will call off the diplowar temporarily, but the truth is that, while pulling ships from the border will result in a victory for them, the same will happen if we stand by and do nothing; the federation will be revealed as a useless pack of liars who gave up while the going got tough, while the noble Horizon at least tried to do something- and while I am not sure of distance, aren't they drawing forces from the border too? In short, they will milk it for everything its worth, and may win the diplowar as polities lose their faith in our good intentions ( a good example for me are the romulans, who already feel like we stand by when people are suffering, or the ISC).
What i feel we should do is send a task force and meet up with the Horizon and ISC fleets- while it is true that we cannot make a difference in the war before Chrystovia falls, if we get there before the Cardassians can force vassalisation the appearance of a massive fleet may be enough to force a Cardassian withdrawal from Chrystovian space, preventing a permanent occupation (or send humanitarian aid convoys to rebuild devastated cities?). If they call our bluff then, it is 3v1. In short- we cannot save the Chrystovians, but we can conduct damage control while improving our PR at the same time. As for the ships that may be destroyed.... well, the Federation has always prided itself on the morality and strength of its crews even in the face of death- that is the purpouse of the Kobiyashi Maru test.
*rant over* sorry guys, but I feel really strongly about this- if we give up now, we give up on the ideals that make Star Trek the most optimistic Sci Fi setting around
Edit: Ninja'd by update
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Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
I don't think there is a unit of measurement to calculate that burn.
It's a load of shit mind you, but I can admire it.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
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- Germany
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[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
// Nice manipulation attempt, Horizon.
@SWB - to sum up parts of your plan as I understand it - we use Bajor to either stop the Cardassians from invading the Cs, or liberate Bajor if they invade the Cs. I don't think that idea will be well received by the Diaspora "we could if we bothered but you are not worth the effort and the blood".
// Nice manipulation attempt, Horizon.
@SWB - to sum up parts of your plan as I understand it - we use Bajor to either stop the Cardassians from invading the Cs, or liberate Bajor if they invade the Cs. I don't think that idea will be well received by the Diaspora "we could if we bothered but you are not worth the effort and the blood".
Well that clinches it, in the end if they're willing to do it then we have to respond.
Need to more or less maintain TF Beyond though.
We need to ensure ISC and Harmony maintain separate areas of operations against the Cardassians and divide their forces so it could be defeated piecemeal.
We have to intervene, its a show of force since how would backing down would look in the eyes of the Gorn and Ittick-ka and it burn the Florist for their alliances with the Federation.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Need to more or less maintain TF Beyond though.
We need to ensure ISC and Harmony maintain separate areas of operations against the Cardassians and divide their forces so it could be defeated piecemeal.
We have to intervene, its a show of force since how would backing down would look in the eyes of the Gorn and Ittick-ka and it burn the Florist for their alliances with the Federation.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
- Location
- Northish
If the Harmony is not backing off we still are left with no good options. Either we accept we are going to take some serious losses in the diplomatic war and internal moral, or the Federation looks weak in front of everyone.
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How unfortunate that the Horizon is going to win in either scenario, pure circumstance I'm sure.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Our best bet is an attack towards Bajor in an attempt to liberate that world, this could be our only chance for decades to come.
With the horizon not backing of we might have to rely on the FDS with a diplopush on most worlds Beyond is working on now as we reduce its size to form a Cardassian TF.
Do we expect combat in Gorn space between our and the cadassian taskforces?
Our best bet is an attack towards Bajor in an attempt to liberate that world, this could be our only chance for decades to come.
With the horizon not backing of we might have to rely on the FDS with a diplopush on most worlds Beyond is working on now as we reduce its size to form a Cardassian TF.
Do we expect combat in Gorn space between our and the cadassian taskforces?
Strong rhetoric, but also completely full of shit. It takes the commitment of a "peacekeeping armada" to make friends and, hah, produce winners and losers at debate. The same damn ships are used to no-sell dictators, and on the other side it's literally the same case. If it truly mattered to them, we could both spare the ships. Don't play stupid games, Ambassador.
Looks like we are going to be forced to intervene if we want to keep in the ISCs good books. And HoH have worked a way win which ever we go - we intervene then they will have local superiority in the contested area, we don't intervene and they will use that as a diplomatic thrashing stick for decades.
TBH I honestly don't have a problem calling the coreward diplomatic competition a military mission of peace. There's been an actual war there and all even, but it is indeed about border security and alliance building. That's perfectly military and also just fine.