[X] Emotional comfort first.
-[X] Softly disagree with Homura's negativity.
-[X] Firmly state your belief in her. Re-state your promises that things will work this time.

[X] Keep asking Homura how she's feeling, if she needs time, and once you reach a point where Homura feels better, ask if she wants to go on.

[X] Make the case that Homura is the source of Madoka's hope.
-[X] There is hope, thing will work out, and it's thanks to Homura.

Solving problems in the present! I like that, ATM. Why are we discussing anything else if that isn't solved?

@Onmur - Is your vote more complete if you were to address her fears?

Rather than counting them, by offsetting them? Without inflaming Homura's potential for bad adaptation, can we offer some antidote to her fears? Certainty? How about Choice - that being a form of Control? As long as we keep such from becoming destructive and useless, isn't that a path forward? Control can be offered in a positive and goal oriented manner, to help Homura develop her tolerance? Just thinkin.'
We have to keep in mind Homura would rather kill O&K, have us stop doing our meguca saving thing, and use the fact the current timeline has been successful beyond her wildest dreams to take down Walpurgisnacht, easily.

Surely that'll be enough to take down Feathers too, whatever that is.

As it is, Homu is not just worried that she's not the one saving Madoka herself; while that might be the core issue, she's being pressed on all sides by constant fears.

First it was fear of Walpurgisnact; then Oriko popped back up as a threat this timeline and we kept her around to keep worrying Homu; then Homu seemed to at least consider the existence of Feathers; then we keep getting in trouble with meguca and now we're getting meguca inmigrants.

Homu's got quite a bit of stress piled up on her thin frame.
 
@Kaizuki
There is another goal I think you could add on? We should be trying to consider how to get Homura to share her pain more often. We need to make that a "system she can control," not just a "promise to help you." Her utilization will be too little otherwise, her self-care is rather damaged. Homura is at risk to not reach out, even though she knows she could. Such a plan needs to be interactive with us.

We want that but it's a separate mess.

You'll recall there have been a couple times we've tried to get Homura to tell people about the loops. Now, that's not exactly a perfect point, because what we really want to do is tell people a really, incredibly censored version that doesn't, for instance, involve the witchbomb. But that's not what she thinks of it.

Homura... firmly believes that telling people about the loops is a quick route to bad-ending a loop. I think it's worth talking it through with her, explaining how we'd do it, all the ways it probably wouldn't end up going horribly wrong, etcetera. But that's a whole kettle of fish in and of itself -- it probably deserves its own vote. And once that conclusion is reached, it becomes pretty obvious that we can't mix it in with the current one, because we need to address what's going on in the present.


[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.

[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] Homura is not a failure. She is not a good for nothing. You won't put up with hearing one of the most amazing people in the world, one of your friends, put themselves down like that.
-[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her. And if Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been worse for it.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.

[x] Conversation goals: Get Homura to a point where it's safe to let her think about all of this.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura hasn't met her own standards of success yet.

[x] Potentially, as needed to accomplish those goals:
-[x] She was put in a nearly impossible situation, and can't blame herself for that. You couldn't have done better, not in her shoes.
--[x] She still kept Mami and Sayaka in her heart to the end, even though they kept falling and taking Madoka with them. She kept trying, which is all anyone could ask.
-[x] You know what Homura's done, and you accept her. You'll believe in her to the end.
--[x] Madoka would too, you're certain of it.
-[x] Only because of Homura is there hope for a better world in the future.
--[x] Striving for a better outcome for everyone is what Madoka would have wanted from her.
-[x] Thank Homura for all she's done - and still is doing - for Madoka, you, and the world.
-[x] Provide tactile support and encouragement to the degree Homura is comfortable with it.

[x] Let Homu compose herself before returning to realtime.

I don't think we should put anything in here abut returning to realtime, and I continue to wish you'd just kind of scrap everything after the first two blocks. Not only would it bring it well within the re-imposed word limit

[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)

but frankly everything after that is... It's all just completely irrelevant. Yeah, I get that you have a delimiter on it saying "if it seems like a good idea do it." It's still got you over 300 words for little discernible reason.

[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.

[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] Homura is not a failure. You won't put up with hearing one of the most amazing people in the world, one of your friends, put themselves down like that.
-[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her. And if Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been worse for it.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.

[x] Conversation goals: get Homura to accept that she has accomplished something positive for Madoka.
 
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... I'm having trouble determining who this is directed at. Or if it's just general advice.

I do think that we need to immediately oppose Homura's expressed sentiment that she's a failure from the end of the last update. Letting Homura build on that is a bad idea, better to nip that line of poisonous self-flagellation in the bud.

That said, doing it in a way Homura will accept instead of stubbornly digging her heel in on is obviously preferable.
I'm directing this at both you and @Kaizuki, since you're both implementing this. I'm usually all for "directly and immediately oppose individual's negative feelings", but every time we've tried it in this quest it has been an unmitigated disaster. You're not giving her any reason to change her mind, so she's going to either double down on her already-unsubstantiated belief or collapse because she's a failure at that too. If you want to immediately oppose her, just keep giving her reasons. We have an endless pile of them. If nothing else, just be more supportive. Warm, comforting, hugs, whatever, anything other than EMPRESS SABRINA COMMANDS YOU TO BE HAPPY.
 
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I'm directing this at both you and @Kaizuki, since you're both implementing this. I'm usually all for "directly and immediately oppose individual's negative feelings", but every time we've tried it in this quest it has been an unmitigated disaster. You're not giving her any reason to change her mind, so she's going to either double down on her already-unsubstantiated belief or collapse because she's a failure at that too. If you want to immediately oppose her, just keep giving her reasons. We have an endless pile of them. If nothing else, just be more supportive. Warm, comforting, hugs, whatever, anything other than EMPRESS SABRINA COMMANDS YOU TO BE HAPPY.

No reasons is untrue.

-[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her. And if Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been worse for it.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.

[x] Conversation goals: get Homura to accept that she has accomplished something positive for Madoka.

You could argue there are too few reasons for your liking, and provide suggestions, I guess.
 
You could argue there are too few reasons for your liking, and provide suggestions, I guess.
You're not introducing the idea that our metaknowledge includes hypothetical futures, and we've already told Homura that Madoka thinks she's great. Rehearsing evidence is disturbingly effective, but I think that it's overwhelmed by the part where you're retreating to an ideological position that cannot be engaged with, only refuted on faith, and almost surely starting a fight.

I have an entire vote full of suggestions for reasoning.
 
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@Kaizuki , May I ask why you have dropped this thought?

Stick to empathyBrina and lead her through it repeatedly, until something sticks or there's a different result:

Repetition is important!

It seems to me that actually [EKS]voting in the instruction to calmly repeat is needed IMHO? What if Brinapilot doesn't do that without direction?
30 - 40 repeats is not "great dialog."
In real life, that is more the way to give the effect we need, truth be told. My interest in Quest isn't great writing for this scene. My goal is best outcome using our real life input.

Repetition is important!

My last experience with a fully irrational child took many hours. Timestop isn't here as a form of metaphor alone. My intent is to do the initial exchange right, and it takes all night to do that.

Will you go carefully through the last versions, and implement a repeat clause? We are advised to mix in plain Madoka praise, Incubator blaming, and maybe some other positive distractions.

Be her family, and be smart about it.

Repetition is important!
 
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You're not introducing the idea that our metaknowledge includes hypothetical futures, and we've already told Homura that Madoka thinks she's great. Rehearsing evidence is disturbingly effective, but I think that it's overwhelmed by the part where you're retreating to an ideological position that cannot be engaged with, only refuted on faith, and will almost surely start a fight.

I have an entire vote full of suggestions for reasoning.

Talking about "once upon a never" is tricky, but it could be done. @Kaizuki, consolidation?
 
Talking about "once upon a never" is tricky, but it could be done. @Kaizuki, consolidation?

Did anyone think to ask Homura -

AFTER we have played out our capacity to affirm her repeatedly!

Repetition is important!

"What did you do to protect Madoka today" "Did she contract today?" "Yesterday?" etc.

Stick to simple contradictions in her worldview? Fight her self hatered in the here and now, until we need to get abstract later?
 
A thought.

Homura's Wish wasn't exactly about Madoka, but about herself. She wants to become Someone Who Can Protect Madoka.

The thought is that, supposing we showed up and killed Walp, completely sidelining Homura, wouldn't that leave her Wish unfulfilled?

Which would be a terrible thing?

If Homu doesn't feel she's Protecting Madoka, I don't think she'll consider her Wish fulfilled.
 
A thought.

Homura's Wish wasn't exactly about Madoka, but about herself. She wants to become Someone Who Can Protect Madoka.

The thought is that, supposing we showed up and killed Walp, completely sidelining Homura, wouldn't that leave her Wish unfulfilled?

Which would be a terrible thing?

If Homu doesn't feel she's Protecting Madoka, I don't think she'll consider her Wish fulfilled.

Hence why I propose a bit of self depecation/bringing up what she made possible/bringing up how our best option if she wasn't here would be hoping she can replicate our wish due to being a mysterious amnesiac without gold or the ability to follow people inside school without making a scene.
 
A thought.

Homura's Wish wasn't exactly about Madoka, but about herself. She wants to become Someone Who Can Protect Madoka.

The thought is that, supposing we showed up and killed Walp, completely sidelining Homura, wouldn't that leave her Wish unfulfilled?

Which would be a terrible thing?

If Homu doesn't feel she's Protecting Madoka, I don't think she'll consider her Wish fulfilled.
Yes, that's been our biggest obstacle for quite a while. Homura doesn't just need to feel that Madoka has been protected, she has to feel that she protected Madoka. I've seen several translations, so it's any guess about the details; I've seen a couple variations on "to be the one to protect her this time". Either way, if she'd just wished that Madoka could be safe, we'd have been done a long time ago - just tell her that we're here and her job is done, great success.

You have actually prompted me to go looking for concrete translations, though, which raised something interesting that I think we haven't been considering all along:
Article:
"I want to redo my first encounter with Kaname-san. But this time, instead of her protecting me, I want to become strong enough to protect her!"
Source: [url=https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Homura_Akemi]Homura Akemi - PMMM Wiki[/url]

We may have a hard time with the "become stronger" part of that.
 
Yes, that's been our biggest obstacle for quite a while. Homura doesn't just need to feel that Madoka has been protected, she has to feel that she protected Madoka. I've seen several translations, so it's any guess about the details; I've seen a couple variations on "to be the one to protect her this time". Either way, if she'd just wished that Madoka could be safe, we'd have been done a long time ago - just tell her that we're here and her job is done, great success.

You have actually prompted me to go looking for concrete translations, though, which raised something interesting that I think we haven't been considering all along:
Article:
"I want to redo my first encounter with Kaname-san. But this time, instead of her protecting me, I want to become strong enough to protect her!"
Source: [URL='https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Homura_Akemi']Homura Akemi - PMMM Wiki[/URL]

We may have a hard time with the "become stronger" part of that.
That's the point I tried to raise, precisely.

Homura needs to feel she has become, let's say, worthy, by the time Walpurgisnacht dies.

This implies two things, at least, I think: One is that Walpurgisnacht might become stronger if Homura does not feel she has become worthy, because delicious despair.

Two is that we're on a time limit to help Homura become worthy of her Wish.
 
That's the point I tried to raise, precisely.

Homura needs to feel she has become, let's say, worthy, by the time Walpurgisnacht dies.

This implies two things, at least, I think: One is that Walpurgisnacht might become stronger if Homura does not feel she has become worthy, because delicious despair.

Two is that we're on a time limit to help Homura become worthy of her Wish.
Ah, sorry - there's a subtle difference between "Homura needs to be the one to protect Madoka" and "Homura needs to become strong enough to protect Madoka", and I thought you had come down on the other side.
 
So... My first thought is trying and seeing if we can involve Homura more in our efforts to recruit meguca for Walpurgisnacht and such.

... But we're already using Homu a lot, and I don't think she appreciates her own efforts. Low self-steem sucks.

By what I understand, PSP golden ending consists of Homura managing to Social everyone into cooperating, thanks to... favorable circumstances (even fucking kb contributes).

Maybe we should talk with Homura about what it would mean for her to fulfill her Wish, what does she need to do and become, and how can we help her do it.
 
By what I understand, PSP golden ending consists of Homura managing to Social everyone into cooperating, thanks to... favorable circumstances (even fucking kb contributes).
Yes, but just because Homura socials everyone and gets a Golden Ending in one timeline doesn't mean it'll strictly work in another. The bonus route shows a case where Homura manages to social everyone a little too well, and it ends with all the girls except Homu getting wiped out by Walpurgis.
 
Hello, a lurker here, and I decided to post because I thought it might be worth a try to tell Homura how she looks from a different, and hopefully more objective point of view. I tried to focus on telling Homura that she has a place where she belongs.

[ ] Tell Homura what you think about her
-[ ] You need her to save Madoka; she is a wonderful, trustworthy and powerful ally and you know very well that you can't do everything on your own
-[ ] You don't blame her. How could you? It took courage for her to fight against Walpurgisnacht as she did.
---[ ] Tell her you'd be wrong to blame her for not saving Mami and Sayaka in the previous loops and that you are sure that Madoka wouldn't as well. She had a lot on her plate, and you are sure Madoka wouldn't blame her for not trying to save Mami and Sayaka on top of that. Tell her that you'd help to make things alright with them all

I put the last part in because I thought that a part of the problem might be the difference in personality between Madoka, Sabrina and Homura. Madoka and Sabrina try to save everyone. Homura just tried to save Madoka. I think Homura might be scared that Madoka and Sabrina might reject her for doing so. And I don't think Homura was wrong to do what she did. Madoka and Sabrina went the extra mile, but I think taking that extra mile is a matter of choice, not obligation. And I put the last part in partly because of the PSP golden ending.
 
Yes, but just because Homura socials everyone and gets a Golden Ending in one timeline doesn't mean it'll strictly work in another. The bonus route shows a case where Homura manages to social everyone a little too well, and it ends with all the girls except Homu getting wiped out by Walpurgis.
Point would be that managing to Social everyone into a win seems to be an OK fulfillment of Homura's Wish.

So being able to Protect Madoka doesn't necessarily mean being able to kill Walp with her own bare hands or anything like that; there's probably more than one way Homu can feel she's accomplished her Wish, the important part being that she feels she's central to whatever strategy is used.

We kind of took over the Social role this time around...

How do we help Homura think of herself as More Important in the preparations and fight against Walpurgisnacht?
 
Hello, a lurker here, and I decided to post because I thought it might be worth a try to tell Homura how she looks from a different, and hopefully more objective point of view. I tried to focus on telling Homura that she has a place where she belongs.

[ ] Tell Homura what you think about her
-[ ] You need her to save Madoka; she is a wonderful, trustworthy and powerful ally and you know very well that you can't do everything on your own
-[ ] You don't blame her. How could you? It took courage for her to fight against Walpurgisnacht as she did.
---[ ] Tell her you'd be wrong to blame her for not saving Mami and Sayaka in the previous loops and that you are sure that Madoka wouldn't as well. She had a lot on her plate, and you are sure Madoka wouldn't blame her for not trying to save Mami and Sayaka on top of that. Tell her that you'd help to make things alright with them all

I put the last part in because I thought that a part of the problem might be the difference in personality between Madoka, Sabrina and Homura. Madoka and Sabrina try to save everyone. Homura just tried to save Madoka. I think Homura might be scared that Madoka and Sabrina might reject her for doing so. And I don't think Homura was wrong to do what she did. Madoka and Sabrina went the extra mile, but I think taking that extra mile is a matter of choice, not obligation. And I put the last part in partly because of the PSP golden ending.
Welcome, literally no-name lurker! :V

;)
 
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