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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I very much like the short votes/updates approach to this. It lets us react far more easily, so I'd rather have one, or at most two goals per vote. That would be reflected in the votes being short in wordcount, too.

If Firn needs to scratch his writing itch, he's gonna have to do more short updates per week. :p
 
Mmm, perhaps one should address the others Homura has hurt in the loops as well?

Since she is actually capable of empathy, and does feel bad about the terrible things she did to people besides Madoka.

A big part of whats coming down is realizing how wrong she feels she was going about it. Since she never got results, but we did.

She did horrible things, now she does not even have the excuse of protecting madoka I am not surprised the guilt is catching up with her.


She is starting to slip into the mindset that she is making things worse, we should address that what she did made this possible.

she did a lot of terrible things. Mistakenly, intentionally, and due to simply not having any good options.

She also fixed, so, much. They would all be dead if not for her, or that we would not exist.
 
Kaizuki said:
Solely in the case of erased timelines. Homura's time magic protects Madoka from the consequences. Eventually there will be a timeline where Madoka simply won't need to make a wish *Sabrina looks pointedly at herself*
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Even if I thought this would be a convincing argument (erased or not, each of those is a time that Homura had to watch the woman she loved die or turn into a monster), the votes in play don't really communicate that to Homura. As has been recently demonstrated for us, ideas that are not actually in the vote don't wind up happening.
 
Kaizuki said:
She doesn't have to suffer the consequences as long as Homura is there to rewind time, shielding her from them.
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Ignoring my issues with the vote approach on principle, this particular part of the reasoning is extremely suspect.

Homura doesn't rewind time.

Those timelines still exist. They're still going, and in point of fact Homura could return to them if for some godforsaken reason she wanted to. (Confirmed in Wraith Arc.) Which means that those Madoka's that became Gretchen are still Gretchen, and are still suffering.

Obviously we shouldn't tell Homura this, but I'm not comfortable straight up lying about something this integral either.
 
Maybe we need to help Homura at least start to internalize the notion that the game was rigged before, that Karma/Destiny/whatever would never have allowed her victory in the initial conditions so she is not to blame?
 
Redshirt Army said:
Ignoring my issues with the vote approach on principle, this particular part of the reasoning is extremely suspect.

Homura doesn't rewind time.

Those timelines still exist. They're still going, and in point of fact Homura could return to them if for some godforsaken reason she wanted to. (Confirmed in Wraith Arc.) Which means that those Madoka's that became Gretchen are still Gretchen, and are still suffering.

Obviously we shouldn't tell Homura this, but I'm not comfortable straight up lying about something this integral either.
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Wait, what? Then how does looping increase Madoka 's potential?
 
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Conjured Blade said:
Maybe we need to help Homura at least start to internalize the notion that the game was rigged before, that Karma/Destiny/whatever would never have allowed her victory in the initial conditions so she is not to blame?
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A big problem is that while we know that all this shit isn't Homura's fault... She can't really accept that.

She's taken responsibility for basically everything, that's partly why she tries so hard, and why she blames herself so much.

If we could get Homu to accept she doesn't have all the blame, and maybe accept that it's OK for us (and Madoka) to bear some of the burden... that would be fantastic.

It would also probably mean breaking some of the foundation of Homura's personality, her will and determination that we admire so much.

So. Problem.
 
[] Homura succeeded.
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Did she? I mean, so far Madoka has always been killed or witched out by Walpurgisnatch so Homura hasn't really suceeded yet on her mission/wish. However, it's also true that as far as Homura doesn't give up she hasn't failed either.

Keeping her promise to Madoka about not being tricked into wishing is another thing altogether.
 
zxzx24 said:
She is starting to slip into the mindset that she is making things worse, we should address that what she did made this possible.
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Conjured Blade said:
Maybe we need to help Homura at least start to internalize the notion that the game was rigged before, that Karma/Destiny/whatever would never have allowed her victory in the initial conditions so she is not to blame?
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Kinda like what I've been wanting to tell her for the last two or three votes, then?
 
Onmur said:
A big problem is that while we know that all this shit isn't Homura's fault... She can't really accept that.

She's taken responsibility for basically everything, that's partly why she tries so hard, and why she blames herself so much.

If we could get Homu to accept she doesn't have all the blame, and maybe accept that it's OK for us (and Madoka) to bear some of the burden... that would be fantastic.

It would also probably mean breaking some of the foundation of Homura's personality, her will and determination that we admire so much.

So. Problem.
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Hence my "at least start to internalize". It's like when she asks "how" and I suggest "Probably easier said then done but learning to see yourself as a human being again."
 
Filraen said:
Did she? I mean, so far Madoka has always been killed or witched out by Walpurgisnatch so Homura hasn't really suceeded yet on her mission/wish. However, it's also true that as far as Homura doesn't give up she hasn't failed either.

Keeping her promise to Madoka about not being tricked into wishing is another thing altogether.
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If Homura wanted to drop everything, hand responsibility to us, and take Madoka on an island vacation, we'd be done. In fact, every single theory we have says that she - or, more accurately, her timey-wimey Witch - is the sole remaining obstacle to a happy ending. So, yes, Homura has already won.
Kaizuki said:
Next vote, assuming that that or something along those lines is the ending of this post, looks like this:
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You're assuming that future-you is Contessa again. You aren't Contessa. Please don't do this kind of thing. Fail-deadly votes are unacceptable. I think that it's worth noting that we took a vote in this update that was not on your roadmap when you voted last update. Think about what that means. You cannot guarantee that your next vote will go exactly like you predict. You can never predict that.

On top of that, you are explicitly voting to do something you know will upset Homura so that you can challenge her on it. Your vote has a line in it about being empathetic and taking care to not make Homura shut down and to make sure she's understanding things, but your strategy ignores all of that. You cannot guarantee that Homura responds in a way that leaves an opening for you to continue your vote. And after your vote, if she doesn't give us an opening, we're hosed.
Kaizuki said:
Listen, I could push out a block vote that would take us all the way to the end of what I think we want to say. I haven't done it, because I think it's highly preferable for us to run individual parts of it that are as self-contained as possible, because it lets us better react to Homura and it lets us abort if we feel that we need to for some reason.
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At the very least you need to explain your entire damn plan instead of dripping out a bit at a time. It's difficult to engage with your plans because you're not even saying what they are.
 
Aranfan said:
That makes zero sense to me.
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Imagine a purple thread piercing through the pink dot on each individual layer of a stacked pile of a hundred blankets.

All of the stacked blankets above the bottommost layer still exist, and indeed their continued existence is what gives the blanket on the bottom so much "weight" piled onto it.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[x] Vebyast

In the short term. I think I'll try writing something to address some short term issues raised with this vote, but for now the approach seems sensible.
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Doesn't seem sensible to me. It's still trying to sell Homura on the idea of a Madowish being a good thing, and basically telling her to think of the deaths and witchings of all those Madokas, and of the entire world in later loops, as a success on her part.

I don't foresee a positive reaction to that. Why do you?
 
Three things

When did I vote for Vebyast? I... didn't, did I?

Maybe it's [] Godwinson vote pulling in from the previous updates. Huh.

Second

[] Redshirt Army

Third

Army of Redshirts, Crazy Catgirl: your votes are really, really similar. Why do you argue again? Is it the Keikaku thing? Does anyone remember that Keikaku means plan is the phrase that prominently figures in Neon Fucking Genesis Evangelion and Death Freaking Note? Gendo and Light, peeps, officially the worst girls in the animu.

Don't go down that road, Kai. Ahead lies only torment and giggling Gendos. Also, no mumis and no hugs.


Edit: weeell
[x] null
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I'm... extremely dubious about plotting a conversation 4 updates in advance, and I'm even more sceptical about doing it behind the back of the thread. It's neat that you think you have a super special awesome plan for dealing with this, but if you want to convince me to agree to your current course of actions you're going to have to convince me of your entire plan.

I'm not going to just assume that your plan is optimal on faith, not when planning too far ahead has already bit us in the ass repeatedly. Indeed, I'm very close to voting against you on principle at this point. I find this behaviour unacceptable.
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I kinda have to agree with Redshirt here: I very much want to see Kaizuki's whole plan here, not just the current section of it. We have the inspiration yeah, but that's not really a substitute.

@Kaizuki: A big part of the reason that I want to see it is that, even if it's still unbuilt or not yet structured in a vote format, having that plan allows us to comment and work on it, in a way that just having it in front of us here and now... doesn't. As things stand now, we're forced to go along with a plan we don't have know the inner workings of, and if anything is wrong, we can't fix it.

I don't expect it to be nice and pretty --- and there's no shame in that at all! --- but I do want to see what you're working with.
 
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Alright. My feelings on the whole thing:

Going in a conversation without a plan is stupid

Not changing the plan when the circumstances demand is suicidal

If Kaizuki really believes that his plan is valid, I see no evidence opposing his position on the matter, for now. Though yeah, seeing the whole plan would be nice.

Now, my thoughts:

Two leading votes still say quite similar things while expanding on different issues. I will wait until these two brothers decide their father the king was quite wrong in dividing his kingdom between the two of them and start killing each other, then pick the winner.
 
[x] Goal: Homura needs a new viewpoint:
-[x] That implies her success
-[x] That permits Madoka to have made a Wish
-[x] That doesn't imply she's been causing suffering for Madoka
-[x] That promises a good outcome

[X] Approach:
-[x] Show empathy - physical /emotional support, check her understanding as you go, give her time to compose herself when necessary, etc.
-[x] Softly lead Homura to the goal; don't dictate or push. Take care to keep her open and listening, so she doesn't close off.
--[x] You don't need to get it all done on the spot. She just needs to be stable enough that you can keep working on it with her.
-[x] Provide supporting evidence when prompted or appropriate.
-[X] Cleanse as needed.

[X] Observation: Madoka thinks that Homura is helping.
-[x] Madoka's dreams only give her instincts and impressions, but those instincts and impressions tell her to trust Homura. In her dreams, Homura is the hero fighting to protect her.
-[x] Madoka would stay away if she felt that Homura was hurting her or causing problems. She believes that she's best off with Homura there for her.

[x] Gently, without pushing:
-[x] It's only because of Homura that things can be saved. If Homura had given up, at any point... everything would be gone. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, the very world itself. And if she hadn't been so very, very, unimaginably strong, Sabrina wouldn't exist.
-[x] Homura is, and was, protecting Madoka. You owe everything to her. Without her labour, none of this would be the slightest bit possible.
-[x] Madoka wasn't tricked. And now, in this time, Madoka doesn't need to make a wish. You think this is what Madoka wanted when she asked Homura for her promise.
-[x] Reiterate that everything will be okay.

Took some small tidbits from Kai and Narrators votes, and rewrote the final section of Vebyasts to not explicitly call Homura's achievements a "success", while still carrying the same underlying meaning and tone.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[x] Gently, without pushing:
-[x] It's only because of Homura that things can be saved. If Homura had given up, at any point... everything would be gone. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, the very world itself. And if she hadn't been so very, very, unimaginably strong, Sabrina wouldn't exist.
-[x] Homura is, and was, protecting Madoka. You owe everything to her. Without her labour, none of this would be the slightest bit possible.
-[x] Madoka wasn't tricked. And now, in this time, Madoka doesn't need to make a wish. You think this is what Madoka wanted when she asked Homura for her promise.
-[x] Reiterate that everything will be okay.
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I think that it is critical to point out to Homura that there was a failure mode she didn't even imagine that she's successfully avoided, namely "Madoka Wishes that everything would just end" or "Madoka tells Homura to fuck off". Right now Homura doesn't think that she's succeeded at anything. Showing her that she's stopped that one huge thing has to do at least something to help her.

Madoka's Wish indicated a phase change. Up until the last loop, Homura's job was to keep Madoka from Wishing Bad and to keep everything going so that Madoka could keep accumulating knowledge. Now that that phase is complete, the job has change: Sabrina's here, Everything Can Be Fixed, and we have to execute. Homura has succeeded in dragging herself and Madoka through that initial build-up and into the final stretch.
 
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I like Vebyast's approach, but I take issue with the statement that Homura succeeded. I agree that that statement could be actively harmful. But I think we could fairly claim that Homura is making progress toward success. Metaphorically, Homura's trying to navigate a maze. While Homura doesn't feel like she's been making progress from her perspective, we have a bird's eye view of the problem and can say that she's been getting closer to the exit, based on our knowledge.

I think Kaizuki's vote's a little lecturing, but the points are perfectly reasonable.

*goes off for a bit*

Oh hey I got ninja'd by Redshirt Army. That's a good vote that addresses my issues.

[x] Redshirt Army
 
Yeah, didn't we broach the whole Homura succeeded thing before and it outright backfired?

She asked, if we succeeded in the end, what is everyone still doing here?
 
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