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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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redzonejoe said:
I don't entirely disagree with you, I'm just concerned that if we never get to the heart of the issue, any amount of positive reinforcement will be countered constantly be an equal or greater amount of negative reinforcement from herself. If we spend 5 hours in a day making her feel appreciated, she has 16-24 hours of her own brain telling her why we're wrong and she's horrible. We need to tackle the source of her negative emotions while also providing positive feedback.

I mean... shit. What do I know about psychology. That's just my gut feeling and expectations of this vote.

I suspect It could take years of therapy to tackle her issues, and even then 'managed' is a more likely term to be used than 'resolved'. I'm not expecting any miracles. But i don't expect that telling her she's great no really I promise is going to be even half as successful as a competent therapist.
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As I attempt to remain recused from as much of this conversation as possible, in part because it's spawned an addition to the docket of things I need to bring up with my therapist (... mostly some realizations that wow am I explaining some things about my subjective experience wrong, I appear to have made some, ah, assumptions about How Humans Normally Do Their Emotions, and you know what they say about assumptions...), I'mma reappear for just a moment. Might I make a suggestion? Share a few thoughts?

Thoughts:
Tackling the source of her negative emotions needs to be done slowly. People can get defensive of their issues if you poke them wrong, even if those issues are negative emotions that are actively hurting them. Because it could feel like you're poking their right to have those feelings. (And also, if you try and fix the issue too hard, they could just feel worse that they're not magically being fixed, because clearly they should just be magically fixed. It can be hard to give yourself the time you need.) That's not even getting into specific landmines we're facing here. It's not going to happen all at once, here and now.

Suggestions:
Touch on the source of her negative emotions, sure. Bring up our thoughts, our ideas, @Kaizuki's excellent expansion of things. But don't push. Bring them up, hand them to her to consider. For her to consider, not for us to harp on. Then- you're right when you say "If we spend 5 hours in a day making her feel appreciated, she has 16-24 hours of her own brain telling her why we're wrong and she's horrible." Counter this, then, not by trying to impress upon her our good opinion of her (which would just be more of us pushing), but rather, by making her impress it upon herself. That is- give her something good, that she can neither refute, nor get out of her head. A self-enforcing affirmation of her worth. I think you might describe it as sort of the opposite of a conventional negative intrusive thought?

Could go about it a few ways. Clearest one, is give her something to push back against, that also happens to mean she pushes back against her own lack of self worth. Like... Meh. Like what @DB_Explorer was saying, about "If you, who've spent who knows how many loops, don't deserve a happy ending then few on this earth do", only then pointedly asking if this would mean Madoka doesn't deserve a happy ending either. Except less mean and more effective, because that would absolutely not work, obviously. But that kind of juxtaposition of ideas. Either something she absolutely cannot refute as true, something she emotionally cannot refute as true, from which logically follows that she herself must have worth; or something she absolutely denies, absolutely emotionally rages against, that also entails she must rage against her own lack of self worth. Something that takes advantage of her gut instincts about the world. Bonus points if we phrase it well enough that it just... sticks around. The sort of quote that echoes in your head for years afterwards.

Give her the tools to let her own intrusive thought generator fight against itself.

Edit: Clarification: This should be something well-phrased enough that we do not overemphasize it when we're saying it. It just needs to be embedded in everything else, quietly. It needs to be something that resonates with Homura, that she picks up on her own and makes her own. Not just another idea we're trying to push on her and make her believe. It's the agency thing, again, as well as everything else. Circles within circles.



So. I'll reply specifically about this idea, being as that I brought it up, but otherwise, don't be surprised if I disappear from this conversation. Touchy topics, touchy topics, and all.

Edit: I apologize if I accidentally rehashed what anyone has said, it's altogether too late for me to be deciding to write this or not, and it spawned basically directly from what I was writing on my "vote in abeyance for counseling appointments in the near future" list. Kind of blurted it all out here, kneejerk idea reaction.
 
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mCooperative said:
As I attempt to remain recused from as much of this conversation as possible, in part because it's spawned an addition to the docket of things I need to bring up with my therapist (... mostly some realizations that wow am I explaining some things about my subjective experience wrong, I appear to have made some, ah, assumptions about How Humans Normally Do Their Emotions, and you know what they say about assumptions...), I'mma reappear for just a moment. Might I make a suggestion? Share a few thoughts?

Thoughts:
Tackling the source of her negative emotions needs to be done slowly. People can get defensive of their issues if you poke them wrong, even if those issues are negative emotions that are actively hurting them. Because it could feel like you're poking their right to have those feelings. (And also, if you try and fix the issue too hard, they could just feel worse that they're not magically being fixed, because clearly they should just be magically fixed. It can be hard to give yourself the time you need.) That's not even getting into specific landmines we're facing here. It's not going to happen all at once, here and now.

Suggestions:
Touch on the source of her negative emotions, sure. Bring up our thoughts, our ideas, @Kaizuki's excellent expansion of things. But don't push. Bring them up, hand them to her to consider. For her to consider, not for us to harp on. Then- you're right when you say "If we spend 5 hours in a day making her feel appreciated, she has 16-24 hours of her own brain telling her why we're wrong and she's horrible." Counter this, then, not by trying to impress upon her our good opinion of her (which would just be more of us pushing), but rather, by making her impress it upon herself. That is- give her something good, that she can neither refute, nor get out of her head. A self-enforcing affirmation of her worth. I think you might describe it as sort of the opposite of a conventional negative intrusive thought?

Could go about it a few ways. Clearest one, is give her something to push back against, that also happens to mean she pushes back against her own lack of self worth. Like... Meh. Like what @DB_Explorer was saying, about "If you, who've spent who knows how many loops, don't deserve a happy ending then few on this earth do", and then pointedly asking if this would mean Madoka doesn't deserve a happy ending either. Except less mean and more effective, because that would absolutely not work, obviously. But that kind of juxtaposition of ideas. Either something she absolutely cannot refute as true, something she emotionally cannot refute as true, from which logically follows that she herself must have worth; or something she absolutely denies, absolutely emotionally rages against, that also entails she must rage against her own lack of self worth. Something that takes advantage of her gut instincts about the world. Bonus points if we phrase it well enough that it just... sticks around. The sort of quote that echoes in your head for years afterwards.

Give her the tools to let her own intrusive thought generator fight against itself.



So. I'll reply specifically about this idea, being as that I brought it up, but otherwise, don't be surprised if I disappear from this conversation. Touchy topics, touchy topics, and all.
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Omniatrix said:
This is exactly what I was thinking while I was reading the post. It's a great plan, and I think it's the direction we need to take, but it's probably still not a philosophy we're going to be able to convince her of by the end of this conversation.



It's not supposed to cut it - I don't think anything is going to clearly get through to her immediately. The point isn't to logically convince her that she's a good person, because that's not how emotions work. The point is to set up/continue an extended campaign of affirmation. No matter how soundly argued, we're not going to get out of this conversation with her really, truly believing she isn't a terrible person. We probably won't even get her to say she's not a bad person out loud regardless of her belief. But we can establish and repeatedly emphasize that we don't think she's bad, that other people don't think she's bad, and that at the very least she can, ah, believe in the friends who believe in her, I guess. The emotional part of our brains are kind of dumb: repeat something enough and it will start to believe it. That's the part of the brain that we're targeting for the talk about why she does deserve to be happy.

On that note, I kind of want to approach that part of the conversation the same way you would in therapy. Of course, that's kind of hard since I'm not actually a therapist, but I know there are a few approaches we might use. The constant repetition that she isn't evil and we (that is, us and all of her other friends) do actually like her is one that we've already talked about. We might ask Mami and Madoka especially to make a point of complimenting her and asking for her opinion when it's relevant? Regardless, that's kind of by definition a long term thing, here it just means categorically denying that she doesn't deserve to be happy.

Let's see, I think it's also a thing to respond in the third person here. That is, go with the "that's a really mean thing to say about one of my closest friends" kind of line. I'm not sure if that will be helpful here, although it might be useful in surprising/confusing her and getting her attention away from self-loathing for a moment. I know it's a thing to get people to make a self-affirming statement even if they don't believe it. So, like, asking her to say "I am not a bad person," or "I deserve to be happy," as a way of kind of tricking the emotional parts of her brain to internalize it a little bit. Again, nothing that will get her to flat-out believe all this immediately, but things that will lead that way gradually with repetition.

So uh, @Onmur and @Kaizuki if any of those suggestions look good? I really think we need to approach this, at least in part, from the "this is a traumatized teenager, trying to reason them out of emotions is never going to work" angle, in addition to the more rational approach to try and change the underlying philosophy.
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HeroCycle said:
The best session is when we make her refute her own reasons for unhappiness. It isn't going to happen by itself, but that is the way we do it. Heavy thinking and deep empathy are required, as well as super patience.

My proposal so far was to have our conversation in many short bites IC, which lends itself to shorter votes, as it so happens.
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Is this sort of thing good for you, @Onmur ?
 
mCooperative said:
I appear to have made some, ah, assumptions about How Humans Normally Do Their Emotions, and you know what they say about assumptions.
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Being the rare sort of person who actually calms down when angry if told to calm down, I can relate to this. Probably in a much different way than you meant when typing it out though.

As to everything else you said, well I don't actually disagree? I came into it expecting you to contradict anything I said, but it was more of an addition or an elaboration to my own thoughts. So... Yeah. I agree. Good post m'dude. Still trying to resist the urge to debate though.
 
redzonejoe said:
Being the rare sort of person who actually calms down when angry if told to calm down, I can relate to this. Probably in a much different way than you meant when typing it out though.

As to everything else you said, well I don't actually disagree? I came into it expecting you to contradict anything I said, but it was more of an addition or an elaboration to my own thoughts. So... Yeah. I agree. Good post m'dude. Still trying to resist the urge to debate though.
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Not so different a way, I think, actually. Pursuant to the conversation a few pages back about irrational fears and anxieties- apparently one doesn't just treat them the same way as rational fears to make them sit on the back shelf? Also, I have been told many people cannot just reach into their brain and move thought processes around like furniture that needs an API. Not sure I can believe it, though. **shrug**

Good to hear that- I was using your thoughts more as a springboard, than anything to really try and refute. If you did have any more thoughts/responses, more ideas in the air is always interesting to hear, though. (Given, I, too, am trying to resist the urge to find something to debate. Heh. Such conversational instincts.)
 
I'm going to point out my posts have been, as stated, and also due to my current real life work load means I've been glossing over most of the in depth debate.

Thinking about my initial idea though it may not effectively address Homura's issues but it does cut off the current line of thought Homura is having. Human being's aren't logical you don't have to outline the logic first then come to the conclusion. You can state your position *then* explain why its true.
 
Kaizuki said:
This was originally, like, a bunch of things including a vote, but it grew into something a lot more important so I dumped the chaff into storage and am posting this. @AuraTwilight could you look this over for me? And maybe @Godwinson. This may be pretty opaque to people who lack the context of Wraith Arc or who just... haven't spent a lot of time in here.

Abstract: a new viewpoint for the loops which will hopefully provide a goal state to push Homura towards.

Homura believes that she can't deserve happiness because of all the pain she has caused Madoka across the loops -- this is why she eventually surrenders in canon: she decides that there is no way out and that the only thing she has achieved each loop, each reset, has been to force Madoka to walk through the hellscape of their Spring one more time. In canon the potential bomb, when dropped, breaks her resistance by causing her to conclude that each loop can only get worse, and so Madoka can only ever suffer more as long as Homura continues to travel through time. Unmaking this belief is nearly impossible, because Homura perceives that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], and she has spent at least a decade in a hell that has driven this deeply into her psyche.

As of these last couple posts, she seems willing to accept that victory is possible and that she wants that -- she even seems to have accepted that Madoka's wish affecting this timeline is acceptable as long as victory is achieved. But her self-hatred persists, and the thought of being happy -- she can't accept it, because she doesn't deserve it after putting Madoka through so much [PAIN].

Our problem is that nobody has really even been able to envision a stable state to bring Homura into. She is so incredibly traumatized, so riddled with irrational psychoses, so full of self-hatred, that she's practically a witch walking. We require either a method of circumventing Homura's belief that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], that is, some way by which we can convince her that the past is irrelevant as long as the future is [GOOD]... or a method of undermining that belief, that is, some way by which we can convince her that [SHE IS NOT GUILTY]. But convincing her that the past is irrelevant is impossible as a method of accomplishing this, because she'll never accept that it's irrelevant that she has hurt Madoka. Never. And convincing her that she's not guilty of having hurt Madoka... that's impossible too. Right?

But... if we put this under a microscope, the cornerstone of this belief system is that Madoka would have wanted her to stop looping if it was causing Madoka suffering.

If that can be undermined in the right way, the entire accursed architecture might fall apart. But how?

Here, perhaps we can take a lesson from beyond the anime. For those who have read through Wraith Arc, the general belief is that Homura was meant to fight by Madoka's side, using her shield to take Madoka back in time with her, and that that would have led to a Good End -- instead, of course, we get the end of Wraith Arc where Kyubey is the first being to exploit Homura's time travel alongside her, which subsequently leads to an attempt by Kyubey to overthrow the law of cycles and culminates in the birth of Homucifer. The takeaway from that, I think, is that if Madoka and Homura fighting side-by-side would have produced a Good End, it must have involved a resolution or abortion of Homura's self-hatred over her causing Madoka to suffer.

A leap of logic produces this: if Homura can be convinced that Madoka willingly chose to keep going, then what is there left for her to be tortured by?

Perusing the script of episode ten produces a few more ingredients.







The solution we can piece together with this is to convince Homura that the two of them have been fighting together this whole time and that she simply hasn't realized it.

We'll use her perception of Madoka across the timelines as a single person to weave a reality where Homura didn't need to use her shield's ability to carry others back in time to fight alongside Madoka. Where for every step Homura has taken, every battle she has fought for Madoka, Madoka has been fighting however she can for Homura at the same time. Where every loop was initiated at Madoka's behest, and every tragedy suffered by two souls bracing each other as best they were able.






Madoka didn't doesn't want their story to end at Walpurgisnacht.







Madoka believed believes that Homura is worth protecting.







Madoka didn't doesn't want to be tricked into contracting by Kyubey, but felt feels that some things are more important -- Homura especially.







Madoka knew knows that Homura can go back, and so she makes a wish to protect Homura from Walpurgis to ensure that Homura doesn't die, preserving hope for the future. Homura telling her that she can go back or not has nothing to do with it -- Madoka knows it in her heart anyway and tends to dream about it at the start of loops.







Homura's job is to protect Madoka, and Madoka's job is to protect Homura -- whether from suicide by Walpurgis, emotional exhaustion, friendly fire, or anything else. Homura may feel like she's tried absolutely everything, but the time loop hasn't been Homura's fight alone, and her partner made a request of her. Madoka asked Homura not to let Kyubey fool her. Last loop, Homura succeeded at that. And last loop, Madoka found something new -- a way to stack the deck of the next loop.

Nothing Homura has ever done has imposed unwanted suffering on Madoka... Because there has never been a loop that Madoka would accept, and she would rather go through it again than give up on Homura.





I believe this is a potential stable state, which I think is more than anything we've suggested in the past can say. It presents a viewpoint from which Homura has never hurt Madoka, where the loops were a linear progression towards actually preventing Kyubey from fooling Madoka -- we can pass off most of the wish-endings as either being successes on Homura's end where Madoka was still experimenting with wishes to see what she could get to happen before hitting on something really really good last loop, or we can pass them off as minor failures on Homura's end where she had almost gotten the parts right that she needed to so Madoka could make a wish that wouldn't be QB tricking her -- and just generally where the loops are so much less awful than they are from her current point of view... where there's more hope in the world.

The detailwork is, I think, doable. A lot of mileage out of "Madoka is stuck working off of really incomplete memories that are more like gut feelings / dreams than actual knowledge, and waiting until she can't wait any longer before she wishes lets her gather as much context as possible," for instance. I want a thorough fucking review of everything in here before I start suggesting ways to go about pursuing it, though.





Also:
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===
Resolution
===
And so they stand, hand in hand
Through the falling of the sand;
Through the time and through the rain
They face the Night and face the pain
Of a battle long begun,
A Wish ungranted and unwon.

They never falter, never fall-
Every time they give their all,
To save each other, save the day;
Hand in hand they've paved the way
To fix the story, stop the strife
And let their hopes come back to life.

Now the battle can be won,
The Wish resolved as it begun;
Forged in time and forged in pain,
Beat back the Night, and end the rain,
Catch the falling of the sand,
And win the morning, hand in hand.
 
HeroCycle said:
Isn't that supposed to be our bonus for unlocking Oriko 2.0? So, gotta wait.
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Ah, yes, the one true reward for Oriko permanently joining our party.

... So wait, if we get Sayaka to grab some laser powers too...

That's like, half the party with lasers. Any ideas to get everyone lasers, so we can be a whole team of lesbians with lasers?
 
Torgamous said:
"Madoka wishing makes you suffer. Does that mean she doesn't deserve happiness?"
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I feel like that's both too nuclear an option, and doesn't have a direct enough connection between the two thoughts for Homura to bridge them the way we hope even if we were willing to take a nuclear option. It's very much visibly us trying to make a point, and while it's something that may certainly stick in mind, it's confrontational enough that the pushback might well all be directed toward us, instead of being useful for fighting other demons.

At least, that's how I read it?
 
Given that Homura has faith in Sabrina, would a promise of "demonstrating Homura she's a person worth of happiness" work? (in the way out closing to that argument). It isn't like we Sabrina can really convince Homura otherwise so easily, but explicitly making it an ongoing process?

(Just throwing a random thought because I don't know to navigate this)
 
Filraen said:
Given that Homura has faith in Sabrina, would a promise of "demonstrating Homura she's a person worth of happiness" work? (in the way out closing to that argument). It isn't like we Sabrina can really convince Homura otherwise so easily, but explicitly making it an ongoing process?

(Just throwing a random thought because I don't know to navigate this)
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I think it would be a good way to end the discussion when it starts running out of steam, yeah, particularly if it's got some bit about how "even if it takes long after Walpurgisnacht is come and defeated" (but better worded), because it both tells Homura we're gonna be fighting for her, to show her she's worthy of happiness, while making it easier for her to accept because she can unconsciously put it behind Walnutmart in her internal calendar- it would lose all immediacy, in that regard, but it would be tied on behind the defeat of Walpurgisnacht. And when the time comes that we've beat Walmartnight, and Homura realizes that we've done it, that she's finally won, it will tug back up the thread about us promising that we'll show her she's worthy of happiness. And it might be more than a bit easier to believe, right then, in that moment of relief- because what's one more miracle, after all this?

Or. That's one idea, anyway.
 
In beteen taking care of other things, I've been stuck on writing this post for hours. :p

Thoughts:

[] Standing: Don't disagree with Homura directly where it might cause her to close herself off.

We need to not make Homura think we just don't understand.

[] Standing: Encourage Homura to explain why she thinks her way. Don't move too fast.

As someone said, it's better if Homura can articulate her own feelings to the extent she can, so she herself can expose the root of her issues.

[] Standing: Homura has assumed responsibility for everything upon herself, since she couldn't find anybody else who would. That includes being at fault for things going wrong, even if she doesn't deserve it.
-[] Ideally, Homura would recognize when something is her fault and when not, but this would mean chipping away at her foundations.
-[] Her guilt and shame that we can do what she couldn't could be an example of that.
-[] Thread carefully.

[] Specific: Why?
-[] There is nobody in this world we find more deserving of happiness than Homura.
-[] List all the ways we admire Homura, or she has helped us, if necessary.
-[] Madoka won't be happy with an end result in which Homura isn't happy.
--[] Doesn't Madoka deserve to be happy?




@Kaizuki
I don't think we can just move onto your idea right now. Maybe take an update first?




So, note: I believe part of why Homura hates herself is because she's taken ALL the burden upon herself. If nobody else can help, then it's all Homura's responsibility, then it's all her fault when things don't work.

We can't quite go and say 'no it's not your responsibility' without chipping away at the foundation of Homura's Will.

It'd be great if we could lay the blame for everything at the feet of whoever's responsible. At KB's, Walpurgis'... ultimately, her heart problems are at the core of this, and there's none we can ever point at and say it's their fault, so Homu will always assume it's her own fault that she was born with a weak heart, to some level.
 
Omniatrix said:
it's probably still not a philosophy we're going to be able to convince her of by the end of this conversation.
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It should actually cascade pretty quickly. It's... She'll believe it. It explains a lot of things she has no explanation for.

Onmur said:
@Kaizuki
I don't think we can just move onto your idea right now. Maybe take an update first?
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Yeah. Uh... I think I'm going to stick with simple though. For now at least.

[X] Continuous cleanse
[X] Of course she deserves happiness. That's what we think, that's what the others would think, that's what Madoka would think.
-[X] Await response, then break.
 
Making some adjustments based on new developments and ideas that others have put forward.


[x] Main goals, in no particular order:
-[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
-[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
-[x] Encourage Homura to say what she's feeling, and listen to what she says... and doesn't say.

[x] Overall tone and subtext:
-[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
-[x] Comforting and encouraging.
--[x] Don't make Homura feel like our sidekick. Make her feel like she's the hero and we're her sidekick.
-[x] Don't steamroll over Homura with speeches, let her express herself.

[x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
-[x] She's spent more than a decade putting herself through a Sisyphean purgatory to save someone she loves. If anyone deserves a happy ending, it's her.
-[x] Homura is our friend, the closest thing we have to family, and we care about her. We want her to be happy.
--[x] Not just Sabrina, but everyone. Mami, Sayaka, Hitomi and most of all Madoka. Even if they don't know what she's been through, they all care about her and want her to be happy.
---[x] As crazy as it sounds, even Oriko is rooting for her to win, because Homura winning means that the world is saved.
-[x] Even after Walpurgisnacht is beaten, we're never going to give up on Homura. We'll do everything we can to help her be happy.

[x] Homura will save Madoka, and all of us will do everything we can to help her.
-[x] Meanwhile, Sabrina is going to save everyone, and wouldn't mind having Homura's help.

-[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka or other feelings of inadequacy, then remind her of how much good she's done.
--[x] Remind her: Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises
---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
---[x] Tracking down Oriko
---[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
--[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.


Word Count: 488.
 
Kaizuki said:
It should actually cascade pretty quickly. It's... She'll believe it. It explains a lot of things she has no explanation for.



Yeah. Uh... I think I'm going to stick with simple though. For now at least.

[X] Continuous cleanse
[X] Of course she deserves happiness. That's what we think, that's what the others would think, that's what Madoka would think.
-[X] Await response, then break.
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Hmmm... there's an appeal to going simple. But I think we can add some potential actions for Firn to write with?



[X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible.

[X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.

[X] Why does she think that?
-[X] You firmly believe she deserves happiness. She more than anyone else.
-[X] Potential arguments:
--[X] Madoka would agree with us.
--[X] She hasn't failed. Not as long as she doesn't give up.



Further potential arguments I'm considering, but I'm unsure about:

--[] She's the one best fit to protect Madoka. None else has walked through her for her.
--[] We are here thanks to Homura.
--[] Most of our success is thanks to our metaknowledge. A lot of that is from Homura's loops.
---[] Contrast with Ono and Akiko. We screw up without access to helpful metaknowledge.
---[] Working with others is hard. It's not her fault when it doesn't work.
 
Onmur said:
Hmmm... there's an appeal to going simple. But I think we can add some potential actions for Firn to write with?



[X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible.

[X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.

[X] Why does she think that?
-[X] You firmly believe she deserves happiness. She more than anyone else.
-[X] Potential arguments:
--[X] Madoka would agree with us.
--[X] She hasn't failed. Not as long as she doesn't give up.



Further potential arguments I'm considering, but I'm unsure about:

--[] She's the one best fit to protect Madoka. None else has walked through her for her.
--[] We are here thanks to Homura.
--[] Most of our success is thanks to our metaknowledge. A lot of that is from Homura's loops.
---[] Contrast with Ono and Akiko. We screw up without access to helpful metaknowledge.
---[] Working with others is hard. It's not her fault when it doesn't work.
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I think there's too much dependency on her response. A lot of small things we can kind of shoot down. I like the tone addition, that should go in. But the potential arguments stuff is just outright risking a screwup if we hit onto any of her real problems. If she says something like "I hurt Madoka" or "everything is my fault" then like... No. That requires a full vote.
So maybe something like... "Respond to any trivial arguments" I guess?
 
Kaizuki said:
I think there's too much dependency on her response. A lot of small things we can kind of shoot down. I like the tone addition, that should go in. But the potential arguments stuff is just outright risking a screwup if we hit onto any of her real problems. If she says something like "I hurt Madoka" or "everything is my fault" then like... No. That requires a full vote.
So maybe something like... "Respond to any trivial arguments" I guess?
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Click to shrink...
Hmmm... OK, maybe we can just not throw in a lot of contingencies.

[] Continuous cleansing.

[] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.

[] You believe Homura deserves happiness. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
[] Try to lead Homura through any small objections/questions with questions of your own.
[] Break to voting...

We should keep in mind, Homura did ask 'how?'. How can this work? How can she make it work, not just how could she deserve to be happy.

Madoka's Wish means that we can do this."

"How?" Homura whispers, her voice raw and agonized. "I don't deserv- I can't."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Something I think we still need to address is the question from the previous update. Why do we makethings work, when Homura fails?

And I think it has to do with Homura having taken responsibility for everything upon her own shoulders. If you take a load off her shoulders, as we do, we're chipping away at the foundations of her strength.

Oh, she doesn't need to do everything. In fact, it's better now that she's not trying to do everything. This ties with what others have said, that Homura will feel more at fault then.

[] Continuous cleansing.

[] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.

[] You believe Homura deserves happiness. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.

[] If appliable:
-[] Try to lead Homura through any small objections/questions with questions of your own.
-[] Try to touch on how unfair life has been to Homura. Apologize for not being able to help before.
-[] We can make this work together. We can help her, but we also need her help.

(?)
 
Hmmm, I'm gonna be busy, so for now I'll go with this.


[X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible.

[X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.

[X] Why does she think that?
-[X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
 
It's not going to work. Everything is hell and nothing is going to work and this conversation will explode and she'll will be crying and maybe she'll be alive and walking but not okay never okay not okay for years and years and years and nothing anyone says will be helping not the pragmatics not kindness not compassion not the taking care of herself to help us not the empirical mathematical proof she chose correctly it'll be an hour two hours three hours and we won't be able convince her of anything and all we can do is hugs cakes cookies chibis and maybe they help but even if we talk even if we believe even if everyone was telling her they believed even if she talks with us she'll never believe it wasn't her own fault that she couldn't have done more even if we say she's still helping she might say sure she is but you can never put down your burdens you can't make anyone put down their burdens and even if she knew we believed she deserves to be saved to be happy to breathe to eat with friends and at laugh and rely on us let us pick up her burdens and help her shoulder them she's doing enough with the tasks she set herself but it's not enough it's never enough because everybody is their own burden and they never feel like they're enou-

I'm. I'm out for awhile. I can't bring myself to believe this will work right now. Might still talk, general topic thoughts, but I won't be able to bring myself to chatter on and make vote suggestions. Or vote. Fuck recusal. This can't- this can't ever-

This vote needs hope, optimism, faith. I have a lot of those, but I can't anymore, today.

I've asked Madokami for all the faith I can today. Still failed literally this exact fucking conversation with five other people on side helping earlier today. All making the same damn points we are here. We were the Madoka, saying we weren't tricked, that we walked together, we'll fix this together, and fuck all the good it did us. All we can hope is that we fix the fucking problem before it kills someone with despair by proxy.

... sorry. Still kinda topical. What I believe, in this instant, about our odds. Why I'll not be about. Still love Kaizuki's direction. Just. Can't right now.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 17, 2018 at 2:03 AM, finished with 173 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible. Continuous cleanse.
    [X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.
    [X] Why does she think that?
    -[X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
    --[X] Await response, then break.
    [x] Main goals, in no particular order:
    -[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
    -[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
    -[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
    -[x] Encourage Homura to say what she's feeling, and listen to what she says... and doesn't say.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext:
    -[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
    -[x] Comforting and encouraging.
    --[x] Don't make Homura feel like our sidekick. Make her feel like she's the hero and we're her sidekick.
    -[x] Don't steamroll over Homura with speeches, let her express herself.
    [x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
    -[x] She's spent more than a decade putting herself through a Sisyphean purgatory to save someone she loves. If anyone deserves a happy ending, it's her.
    -[x] Homura is our friend, the closest thing we have to family, and we care about her. We want her to be happy.
    --[x] Not just Sabrina, but everyone. Mami, Sayaka, Hitomi and most of all Madoka. Even if they don't know what she's been through, they all care about her and want her to be happy.
    ---[x] As crazy as it sounds, even Oriko is rooting for her to win, because Homura winning means that the world is saved.
    -[x] Even after Walpurgisnacht is beaten, we're never going to give up on Homura. We'll do everything we can to help her be happy.
    [x] Homura will save Madoka, and all of us will do everything we can to help her.
    -[x] Meanwhile, Sabrina is going to save everyone, and wouldn't mind having Homura's help.
    -[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka or other feelings of inadequacy, then remind her of how much good she's done.
    --[x] Remind her: Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
    ---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    ---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises
    ---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
    ---[x] Tracking down Oriko
    ---[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    ---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    ---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
    ---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    ---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    --[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.
    [X] "Okay, let me back up. I didn't properly address your concerns before, so I'll do that first."
    [X] "Firstly, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would."
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "You know hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything. Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    -[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
    -[X] Relax. Comment:
    --[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
    --[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
    [X] O&K.
    -[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
    -[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
    [X] Everyone.
    -[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
    -[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
    [X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
    [X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
    -[X] Try using Control Magic...
    --[X] On Grief.
    --[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    [X] Try not to trigger her, must understand her pain right now, before sharing answers.
    -[X] Ask to do pain conversation first
    -[X] We ask questions to get her feelings visible, in a less challenging way.
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    -[X] If her pain is not covered in the topics of the vote, break to vote.
    [X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
    [X] Promise, and give honest answers.
    -[X] Slowly, and with context conversation, so she doesn't use the facts to hurt herself.
    -[X] Have her generate context examples, be careful not to lecture at this point. Understanding is what we want to see in her.
    -[X] Very small steps
    [X] When a trouble spot is sensed, break for vote.
    [x]Really? For being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, for enduring the much undeserved ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring, host refugees in the first place was you. The reason I can perform operations outside Mitakihara without worrying about a sudden apocalypse? You. The reason I was able to get any use out of Oriko and Kirika in the first place instead of still fighting them or being forced to kill them? You. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
    [X] Continuous cleanse
    [X] Of course she deserves happiness. That's what we think, that's what the others would think, that's what Madoka would think.
    -[X] Await response, then break.
    [x] Madoka wouldn't settle for a world where Homura didn't deserve happiness.
    [x] In fact, you're pretty sure she hasn't been settling.
    -[x] Tell Homura about Madoka's prophetic dreams.
    [x] Lead Homura to your theory that Madoka's been working side-by-side with Homura the entire time. She won't stop until Homura succeeds, just like Homura won't succeed until Madoka is safe.
    [X] Tone: Caring, empathetic, supportive.
    [X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
    [x] Madoka wouldn't settle for a world where Homura didn't deserve happiness.
    [x] In fact, you're pretty sure she hasn't been settling.
    [X] Tell Homura about Madoka's dreams.
    [x] Lead Homura to your theory that Madoka's been working side-by-side with Homura the entire time. She won't stop until Homura succeeds, just like Homura won't succeed until Madoka is safe.
Click to expand...
 
I shouldn't have posted that. 'Brina doesn't deserve my brain damage.
... posterity calls stronger than erasure.
... I shouldn't have posted that.
 
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