Adjusted my earlier vote for less risk of encouraging Homura to see herself as a nutcracker or playing into her thinking she doesn't deserve happiness.


[x]Really? For being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, for enduring the much undeserved ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring, host refugees in the first place was you. The reason I can perform operations outside Mitakihara without worrying about a sudden apocalypse? You. The reason I was able to get any use out of Oriko and Kirika in the first place instead of still fighting them or being forced to kill them? You. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
 
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Yes, thank you Mr. Thesaurus, I'm saying Homura is entitled to happiness.

Entitlement is not necessarily negative either. It's only negative when the person making demands has done nothing to justify them.

Homura wrote a check with her very soul and I very much so wish for Homura to be able to cash that check - to alter then turn of phrase.
 
Reminder that Homura was raised Catholic, so she probably doesn't think of things that way.
Well that's a big fucking problem isn't it; this is the whole Soul =/= Body thing all over again...
Yes, thank you Mr. Thesaurus, I'm saying Homura is entitled to happiness.
Well yeah, and i agree, but that's because it's the tital of "being a person" and how the system of people taking care of each other is a mechanism that makes being entitled to something cause them to get it, by dint of people giving it to them because they want to contribute to that mechanism continuing to exist ("People make the culture they are in continue to be around them" or something like that. I'm sure it's a quote somewhere); we don't want to support any system that says that our girl Homaru doesn't get to be happy, so they don't matter. End of thinking about it. We are in charge of making people happy, and we say that Homaru gets to be happy, and so do all of our friends because they want us and her to be happy as well, and so does she because otherwise we're going to get Madoka to point a disapointed face at her until she stops resisting out efforts to improve her morale.

The anvils will continue to be dropped until morale improves!
 
Entitlement is not necessarily negative either. It's only negative when the person making demands has done nothing to justify them.

Homura wrote a check with her very soul and I very much so wish for Homura to be able to cash that check - to alter then turn of phrase.
I don't think this is what specifically you are saying, but you don't have to justify everything you're entitled to.

Otherwise babies deserve nothing, and I think we can agree they do.

From my studies, I find the thought that 'people are entitled to what they get for themselves' is proper of teenagers, and is widely used to justify poor people being poor. By both the rich and the poor.

The thing here is that Homu deserves better than she ever got. Period. Not because she sold her soul. Her life was always shit and as she hasn't nearly made it to adult age, she could have never done anything to deserve it.

Homu deserves better and should be entitled to have better and should just have a better life and to get her wish come true. In a way that doesn't stomp on other people's wishes, of course.

[HOMUCIFER DON'T INTENSIFY PLZ]
 
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I didn't even vote last round... But I got tagged. Does this mean Salty acknowledges me as a regular? I exist! I have impact on things! Woo-hoo!

So, I'll try pinging everyone, so they don't have an excuse anymore. Because, guys? YOU ARE FUCKING THIS UP. BADLY.

Oh. Sorry :(

Ok, my first thought about your vote is that it feels like trying to talk to a poorly scripted npc.

"Oh shit, I wasn't done talking about the other thing, hit the b button so I can back up to the previous menu and get those other talking options back!"

I think rather than just saying 'hold up, let's go back' you need to actually acknowledge the conversation that just happened and incorporate it into your vote.

As for the rest of your vote? I'm not against it in broad strokes, but I gotta agree with the Narrator here when he says
While I understand that you're trying to tell Homura that it's not a failing of hers because the situation was unfair, I'm concerned that focusing too much on Sabrina's advantages and not enough on Homura's qualities will just make her feel even more inadequate.

This isn't enough for me to abandon your vote as unviable and jump onto the nearest hugfest bandwagon, but it is something I want to discuss before I cast my vote and inevitably forget about the thread until tagged or the next update (or both!)
 
...I actually don't think the last vote turned out that bad?

Honestly, there's no way I'd expect this to be resolved in a single vote. Just keep going guys.

I agree with you here. While there was and is some ongoing... consternation... about how we want to address things, we have made one of those small steps forward that gives us a bit more information about the multitude of complex things Homura is feeling. The last update, for all that Homura is upset, does have her engaging with the points we brought up- there's a lot of nodding and shrugging and nonverbal cues, because words are hard when you're trying to struggle through feelings you feel like you can't say, but she did answer us. She even did agree, when we asked, "Homura, Madoka is so much kinder, so much smarter, than anyone might guess at. You know that better than anyone. And... she'd never do anything that could make someone as strong as you cry, right?" Which is a huge thing to admit, in the context of this discussion, I think- that Madoka did likely know well enough to try and wish good- for Homura's sake, to make wish not incompatible with Homura's own.

Actually, I think that's a point we haven't thought to consider bringing up. The end of the last update, we were given:

"I suppose what I'm saying is that you can be happy, Homura." You sigh, and smile. "You're not alone. In more than one way. I'm here, yes, but I'm here to help. Madoka's Wish means that we can do this."

"How?" Homura whispers, her voice raw and agonized. "I don't deserv- I can't."

There are two things to unpack in the last sentence there. That Homura doesn't think she deserves to be happy; and that Homura doesn't know how to be happy, and move forward with the new chances she's been given to win a better world.

Learning to move forward isn't something we can really explain away. It takes time, and it takes adjusting to the changes in the world. It's something that'll need Homura to begin to learn, in her gut feelings, that she can be happy and the world can be good again. That's a long process. This conversation will be part of a stepping stone for that- just by reinforcing that even though things are changing, Homura's Wish is still at the center of it, that it's still something she must, and can fight for. It is still a promise, an oath, to Madoka and to herself, that she can follow and fulfill. She can still save her world, even as she learns to save herself.

But we can't make it happen right away- we'll probably leave this conversation still concerned and a little unsatisfied in that regard; Homura will probably still doubt what we're saying to reassure her, even if she verbally says she accepts it. But if we give her the seeds of the idea that she can be happy, that the world can be good, that she's never wrong to hope, then I think she'll slowly allow herself to- to cautiously release those fears, and let those seeds grow to fill the space the fear once lived, so to speak. In her own time. And we'll need to keep reminding her, and this, as with all the deep-seated sorrows in all our friends, might take years- realtime and questtime, longer that we may even have. But, well. Heh. 'Love takes time, and love takes work'? And so does healing, and compassion too.

As for Homura thinking she doesn't deserve to be happy- I think something we haven't considered saying in response* is that, well. Clearly Madoka thinks Homura deserves to be happy. And of course we, Sabrina, thinks Homura deserves to be happy, but we're not what matters here. Homura has kept the promise she made to Madoka, so very long ago- Madoka's wish, that's made a Golden Ending possible, was made by a Madoka who was not tricked. And Homura has admitted- Madoka is kind, and cares, and knew enough to wish well.

That wish- in its way, from what we see it has done, the ripple effects into this timeline and presumably any which would come after it- seems like it was actually made in the very same spirit as the canon Madokami wish. That she doesn't want the stories of any magical girls to end in despair.

We can ask Homura- she wants Madoka safe, yeah? To have a life that is safe- and then a life that is happy. And only thereafter, a life where she can take the opportunity to enact good on the world. Safe and happy and good- in order of priority. I can understand that. That's- it's a bit selfish of me, but those are my priorities for my people, too, more or less. Tempered with a bit more belief in their own agency, given. In this world, Madoka will be safe. Homura will be able to save her, and we'll help her as best we can. But that's something she'll only come to believe in time, same as I said above. So then. We might not be able to convince Homura she deserves any of this- we believe it, and Madoka believes it, and we'll keep reminding Homura of that, but Homura is the only one who can begin to believe it for herself.

But can she try? Madoka will only be able to be truly happy if Homura can be happy again too. In a world where Madoka will be saved, where Homura will save her- can Homura bring herself to try to believe she deserves to be happy?

If she can't bring herself to believe, for her own sake, she deserves to be happy- can she start by trying to believe it for Madoka's sake?

It doesn't have to be now- nor any time soon. But can she at least consider it?

* @Vebyast, I do remember this was a big part of your proposal last time, but it doesn't seem to have come back for this round yet, even though this time I think we have a pretty good opening for it, if we're careful.

I'm not a hundred percent convinced this is the best route right now, but it's one I think should at least be on the table so we can keep it in mind as an option, or perhaps part of an option.

First instinct - If you, who've spent who knows how many loops, don't deserve a happy ending then few on this earth do. You have never sat idle - you've always improved yourself as you strived to your goal. You have no idea how important your skill, your knowledge is. Every time something happens my first question is - Is Homura able to help?

Not Sayaka, not even Mami - but you.

[ ] We'll help Homura save Madoka. Will she help us save everyone else?

I think these are also directions we should very much keep in mind- things that keep emphasizing what Homura has done, how important she is. And, in the case of Onmur's idea, putting forth the idea that it is a tradeoff, not just us swooping in to steal the show. We're helping with Homura's main priority- and Homura is just as important a force helping with our own.

Edit: Jesus magical space Christ, how the hell is this so long. I did not sit down meaning to write something this long again!

Edit: And wow, that was a bunch of thoughts that didn't actually feed much into any conclusions about shaping the actual vote proposals. Huh.
 
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[] Main point: Emotional support. Show faith in Homura.

[] Homura is Good. Homura deserves better.
-[] Her life has been unfair. That's not her fault, but that of other people.
-[] Homura's walked through a hell that would've long broken anyone else, us included.
--[] We admire her for that.
--[] We want to help her so much, because we can't think of anybody more deserving than her.

[] Madoka's Wish.
-[] She could have Wished differently. She's someone who dearly wants to fix problems, all problems, with her own hands. We believe she choose to not do so because then she would've left Homura alone.
-[] Instead, Madoka gave everyone a chance. Including herself, and Homura.
-[Hmmm...] Feathers: We believe it's a direct and opposite reaction to Madoka's Wish.
--[] Justify: Metaknowledge, Sayaka's mysterious Witchnapping.

[] Homura is needed.
-[] List all the ways she's helped.
--[] With advice, for dealing with enemies and with Kyouko.
--[] Her abilities, and the sheer personal time and effort she puts in.
--[] Her willingness to run to our help every time.
--[] The gold we're using to for meguca needs.
--[] Protecting not just Madoka, but Mitakihara, allowing us to deal with problems outside.
--[] The knowledge we derived from her loops, the foundation of most of our success.
---[] Compare to times when we don't have metaknowledge: Ono, Akiko.
-[] Nobody else is better qualified to protect Madoka. Nobody else has walked through hell for her.

[] We'll help Homura save Madoka. Will she help us save everyone else?

@Redshirt Army, look at this (incomplete) list of things Homu has done for us already. If we were to include something like this in the vote, we could use some word reduction, eh? Eh?
 
So... here's something I'd like to reiterate: the wordcount is a guideline, at best. I had it in the first place because votes were bloating out to ridiculous degrees that were unwieldy and awful to work with. But shorter doesn't necessarily mean better. I'm incredibly busy these days, and I frequently only have time to skim the thread. This means that I may miss context and important points.

So what I'm saying is that if adhering to the wordcount means you lose clarity, then forget that wordcount.

Sooo.... that last minute "hey this two thousand word vote is insane, lets shred it for a 150 one thats totally just as good because Firn prefers it!" .... baseless. Or at least much weaker than implied. Aannd.... it does look like context got lost, specifically pesky things like "Don't do this route except as a last option, with conditions on even considering it".

Or rather, it does look a bit like Firn only had a chance to skim the early part of debate and entirely missed everything with mCooperative and Narrator >_>

Someone else blazed the trail first. Two someones blazed your trail for you. And you need your friends at your back, to help you and to keep you sane. You're fighting for them. You're leading, but you're not doing it alone.

See, this is a nice bit, and does seem to reflect the other options for responding that people (Narrator) proposed and others included as contingencies..... why didn't Sabrina Actually Say ANY OF IT to Homura? She thought about the issue, but her actual words were entirely about crediting Madowish.

Because it was confirmed (not for the first time) that Firn was taking into account more than the winning vote while writing.

I do believe this update went with pretty much the general idea of what the thread as a whole wanted to happen, and that does include Madowish talk

See, that was confirmed last post....but then this post also confirms he doesn't actually have time to read all twentyish pages, so things get lost. Liiike the fact that Madowish was a last resort for much of the voters, or really most of the winning vote in general (this really does look like the early votes of Vebyast and others more than the winning one or the ones that were leading before it.)

So why for the love of Moe are Onmur and Redshirt arguing to triple-down on "Madoka's wish is doing everything"? Like.... trying to push the idea that Madoka wants Homura happy, so Homura is failing Madoka if she believes otherwise and if she disagrees at all with a Wish for someone to show up and beat the challenge Homura has been failing at? It might /work/ with Homura's damaged mindset of Madoka-Centered-Morality, but its not exactly as healthy a solution as showing her how she has been helping and how she has been at least an equal member of saving things.

[X] The Narrator

Lets hope this vote actually sticks and goes through this time... no last minute changes or early bandwagons being used (I get that Firn needs time to write and that voting and debate usually happen right up until the update happens.... but there are moments when I'm sympathetic to quests that clearly call a vote as decided so time isn't wasted by continuing when he's already started. Or I'm massively misreading what happened this time).

we could use some word reduction, eh? Eh?

Maybe its just the end of that.... but i really really really don't want to see us getting a vote that looks like "Word reduction eh eh, lets go 150 words no 20 words eh?
[] Reassure her
-[] Hug teh Homu
brinapilot can do the rest right?" or something)
 
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But we can't make it happen right away- we'll probably leave this conversation still concerned and a little unsatisfied in that regard; Homura will probably still doubt what we're saying to reassure her, even if she verbally says she accepts it. But if we give her the seeds of the idea that she can be happy, that the world can be good, that she's never wrong to hope, then I think she'll slowly allow herself to- to cautiously release those fears, and let those seeds grow to fill the space the fear once lived, so to speak. In her own time. And we'll need to keep reminding her, and this, as with all the deep-seated sorrows in all our friends, might take years- realtime and questtime, longer that we may even have. But, well. Heh. 'Love takes time, and love takes work'? And so does healing, and compassion too.

I really want to give just about all the ratings to your post, but this in particular stands out to me. We need to understand that if Homura is anything like a real person (and Firn has up till now done a good job of making everyone believable as real people), then there is nothing we can say here that will make her better immediately. This isn't a puzzle, there's no right answer that will get us a satisfying ending, and it's not helpful if after every unsatisfying update everyone insists that a vote was a failure. Homura has been pretty extensively traumatized, and that's not something we can fix with words.

What we can do here is encourage her, make sure she knows that it's possible, and reaffirm that we'll help her with everything we can. If there's a big flaw in the previous vote, it's that we focused on external things instead of internal. This update has made it pretty clear that whatever we do needs to be focused on Homura, not the situation around her. I don't know how many other readers here have been to a therapist before, or know much about it, but there's a reason they tend to focus on what you're doing and how you feel about it as opposed to the exterior. It's also why I think I agree with mCooperative, and we should be resting that encouragement on people we know are important to her, namely Madoka, ourselves, and our other friends. Focusing on the situation around her isn't going to help when, in her own eyes especially, it's her that's broken.

Of course, that all said, part of the problem here is that we can't really pull her out of the context that's caused her trauma. Also, none of this really addresses the nominal reasons she pulled us into the timestop, which all further complicate the larger conversation, even if our immediate actions should focus on building her up. To that, I say:

*flees*
 
I really want to give just about all the ratings to your post, but this in particular stands out to me. We need to understand that if Homura is anything like a real person (and Firn has up till now done a good job of making everyone believable as real people), then there is nothing we can say here that will make her better immediately. This isn't a puzzle, there's no right answer that will get us a satisfying ending, and it's not helpful if after every unsatisfying update everyone insists that a vote was a failure. Homura has been pretty extensively traumatized, and that's not something we can fix with words.

What we can do here is encourage her, make sure she knows that it's possible, and reaffirm that we'll help her with everything we can. If there's a big flaw in the previous vote, it's that we focused on external things instead of internal. This update has made it pretty clear that whatever we do needs to be focused on Homura, not the situation around her. I don't know how many other readers here have been to a therapist before, or know much about it, but there's a reason they tend to focus on what you're doing and how you feel about it as opposed to the exterior. It's also why I think I agree with mCooperative, and we should be resting that encouragement on people we know are important to her, namely Madoka, ourselves, and our other friends. Focusing on the situation around her isn't going to help when, in her own eyes especially, it's her that's broken.

Of course, that all said, part of the problem here is that we can't really pull her out of the context that's caused her trauma. Also, none of this really addresses the nominal reasons she pulled us into the timestop, which all further complicate the larger conversation, even if our immediate actions should focus on building her up. To that, I say:

*flees*
You say we dealt with external issues instead of internal ones, but I believe the point was to address the issues Homura raised (external) in order to deal with her internal issues; I'm certain this vote went pretty damn well as many of us hoped.

Not to say All went According To Keikaku*, but at least for me, barring the fact we're talking about Madowish this early in the conversation, this update ended where I hoped and imagined:

We now have an Homura who's opening up, and now we can better help with her internal issues, as you want.

I think we need to address the MadoWish point a bit further, to make the actual point that it's not gonna fix everything, that it only makes things more fair, but everyone still needs to put in the work. Madoka didn't stomp on everyone's agencies, and Homura's Wish still needs to be realized by Homu's own hand.

On your first point... Yeah, pretty much. But there's historically always been people who react badly to the tension of in-quest social situations, so pretty much every time we have a difficult conversation such as now, or other which have gone much worse or better, there's always some people going about how it's all a waste, a mistake, how everything's wrong, how the fact we didn't solve everything instantly means The Quest Is Unwinnable, The Players Are Completely Uncapable, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...

As mura said, we just need to keep going. This conversation's been going even better than other difficult ones we have gone through.

And even if at the end of this, everyone's still feeling unsatisfied, we can keep trying, with time. It's not the end.

If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope... ;)

*Translator's Note: keikaku means plan.
 
"Homura, all of your suffering so far has been that protection. You stuck it out long enough to learn what to do. And Madoka knew too. That wish came out of Madoka's mouth, but it came out of your heart, blood, sweat, and tears. I'm as much your child as hers. This time, it'll be fixed. The only way it could possibly fail is if Madoka rejects her wish for everything to be fixed. And we both know she never will. You've done it, Homura. You set up the loops right to make this happen, and now because of you I'm here, and on your side, and we're going to win this because of you."
 
"Homura, all of your suffering so far has been that protection. You stuck it out long enough to learn what to do. And Madoka knew too. That wish came out of Madoka's mouth, but it came out of your heart, blood, sweat, and tears. I'm as much your child as hers. This time, it'll be fixed. The only way it could possibly fail is if Madoka rejects her wish for everything to be fixed. And we both know she never will. You've done it, Homura. You set up the loops right to make this happen, and now because of you I'm here, and on your side, and we're going to win this because of you."

Yeah, this is about the gist of what I think we should be going for, along with the already proposed enumeration of her contributions in this loop, and how it's all been a group effort with our friends.
 
One thought I was thinking of is that Madoka's wish made it so that everything can be fixed.

But not that it will be fixed.

Hence our appearance, all these changes to the timeline?

It isn't enough.

The way to the "golden ending" uses what the wish provides, but it isn't just the wish itself. There needs to be an external factor that turns that can be to a will, to an is.

With such broad changes to everything, there is only one person possibly completely uneffected by the wish.

One person who has remained themselves unaltered in any subtle ways in the light of the wish, upon traveling to this new timeline.

Homura.

The wish gives Homura a path forward, but without Homura, the wish could never be completed because it only aligns things so they can be fixed not that they will.

Homura might need to "rely" on Madoka's wish, but Madoka's wish can't come true without Homura guiding it.

Homura is still central to making this wish succeed. She is central to saving Madoka.

And we know it will. Because Madoka had faith in her. Because ultimately every single timeline she took has finally lead to a place and time where an unwinnable situation has finally become winnable.

That the cycle is breakable is because of Homura and that it will be broken is because of Homura.
 
One thought I was thinking of is that Madoka's wish made it so that everything can be fixed.

But not that it will be fixed.

Hence our appearance, all these changes to the timeline?

It isn't enough.

The way to the "golden ending" uses what the wish provides, but it isn't just the wish itself. There needs to be an external factor that turns that can be to a will, to an is.

With such broad changes to everything, there is only one person possibly completely uneffected by the wish.

One person who has remained themselves unaltered in any subtle ways in the light of the wish, upon traveling to this new timeline.

Homura.

The wish gives Homura a path forward, but without Homura, the wish could never be completed because it only aligns things so they can be fixed not that they will.

Homura might need to "rely" on Madoka's wish, but Madoka's wish can't come true without Homura guiding it.

Homura is still central to making this wish succeed. She is central to saving Madoka.

And we know it will. Because Madoka had faith in her. Because ultimately every single timeline she took has finally lead to a place and time where an unwinnable situation has finally become winnable.

That the cycle is breakable is because of Homura and that it will be broken is because of Homura.
I agree with the Wish part, it's why I feel we should still address the MadoWish.

The part that's challenging about this, I think, is convincing Homura that This Is OK. That she doesn't have to save Madoka with only her own power... in this case, that she hasn't already failed, as she says, but that she can rely on Madoka's Wish and still accomplish her own Wish.

Madoka and Homura historcally are at odds, because each of them sits at one extreme and they tend to disregard each other's choices.

Madoka Wishes to save everyone (but Homura). Homura Wishes to save Madoka (and none else, to a point).

There's this thing called middle ground, and both Homu and Madoka seems to be mystified about the whole concept. :p

Well, until now. PMAS Doka made a Wish that, effectively, is the middle ground. She doesn't get to erase herself to save ALL the meguca, destroying any chance Homu could fulfill her own Wish. Rather than saving ALL the meguca herself, Madoka made it possible (not certain) that everything could be fixed. By others' hands, not doing it herself.

Traded away certainty and self-sacrifice so Homu could get her own Wish, too.

Madoka took a step into that middle ground. It's Homura's turn, when she's ready.

[HAND CLASPING INTENSIFY?]
 
A thought.

Homura feels that she doesn't deserve to be happy because she gave up on Mami, on Sayaka, on the city. She actively wants Oriko and Kiruka to die. All she cares about anymore is Modoka.

Now Sabrina comes along and it looks like everybody can be saved after all. Like maybe saving everybody is necessary for saving Madoka. Homura feels like she's rotten for giving up on the others, and like she made the wrong choice and forced even Madoka to go through countless loops of grief and dispair because of Homura's inability to care enough about people like Sayaka. If saving Sayaka helps save Modoka, then Homura giving up on Sayaka is the same as Homura forcing Madoka through another failed loop.

The only way this loop has any hope of succeeding is because Madoka took it into her own hands to save all those people Homura stopped caring about. Madoka had to save herself because Homura was subjecting her and her friends to an infinity of time-looped physical and emotional torture.


... Yeah I can kinda see why Homura feels so much self-hatred at the moment. That's what we need to address.

Edit: damn. This post 'bout to be overshadowed hard by that giant post right below.
 
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This was originally, like, a bunch of things including a vote, but it grew into something a lot more important so I dumped the chaff into storage and am posting this. @AuraTwilight could you look this over for me? And maybe @Godwinson. This may be pretty opaque to people who lack the context of Wraith Arc or who just... haven't spent a lot of time in here.

Abstract: a new viewpoint for the loops which will hopefully provide a goal state to push Homura towards.

Homura believes that she can't deserve happiness because of all the pain she has caused Madoka across the loops -- this is why she eventually surrenders in canon: she decides that there is no way out and that the only thing she has achieved each loop, each reset, has been to force Madoka to walk through the hellscape of their Spring one more time. In canon the potential bomb, when dropped, breaks her resistance by causing her to conclude that each loop can only get worse, and so Madoka can only ever suffer more as long as Homura continues to travel through time. Unmaking this belief is nearly impossible, because Homura perceives that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], and she has spent at least a decade in a hell that has driven this deeply into her psyche.

As of these last couple posts, she seems willing to accept that victory is possible and that she wants that -- she even seems to have accepted that Madoka's wish affecting this timeline is acceptable as long as victory is achieved. But her self-hatred persists, and the thought of being happy -- she can't accept it, because she doesn't deserve it after putting Madoka through so much [PAIN].

Our problem is that nobody has really even been able to envision a stable state to bring Homura into. She is so incredibly traumatized, so riddled with irrational psychoses, so full of self-hatred, that she's practically a witch walking. We require either a method of circumventing Homura's belief that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], that is, some way by which we can convince her that the past is irrelevant as long as the future is [GOOD]... or a method of undermining that belief, that is, some way by which we can convince her that [SHE IS NOT GUILTY]. But convincing her that the past is irrelevant is impossible as a method of accomplishing this, because she'll never accept that it's irrelevant that she has hurt Madoka. Never. And convincing her that she's not guilty of having hurt Madoka... that's impossible too. Right?

But... if we put this under a microscope, the cornerstone of this belief system is that Madoka would have wanted her to stop looping if it was causing Madoka suffering.

If that can be undermined in the right way, the entire accursed architecture might fall apart. But how?

Here, perhaps we can take a lesson from beyond the anime. For those who have read through Wraith Arc, the general belief is that Homura was meant to fight by Madoka's side, using her shield to take Madoka back in time with her, and that that would have led to a Good End -- instead, of course, we get the end of Wraith Arc where Kyubey is the first being to exploit Homura's time travel alongside her, which subsequently leads to an attempt by Kyubey to overthrow the law of cycles and culminates in the birth of Homucifer. The takeaway from that, I think, is that if Madoka and Homura fighting side-by-side would have produced a Good End, it must have involved a resolution or abortion of Homura's self-hatred over her causing Madoka to suffer.

A leap of logic produces this: if Homura can be convinced that Madoka willingly chose to keep going, then what is there left for her to be tortured by?

Perusing the script of episode ten produces a few more ingredients.

You can go back in time, right, Homura?
You can go back and change everything... so that we don't end up like this...

Can I ask... one more thing?
Don't let... me turn into a witch...
There's awful, horrible things in this world.
I know that now... but there's a lot of things worth protecting too.

Then save me from being stupid, from getting tricked.
Don't let Kyubey fool me again.

The solution we can piece together with this is to convince Homura that the two of them have been fighting together this whole time and that she simply hasn't realized it.

We'll use her perception of Madoka across the timelines as a single person to weave a reality where Homura didn't need to use her shield's ability to carry others back in time to fight alongside Madoka. Where for every step Homura has taken, every battle she has fought for Madoka, Madoka has been fighting however she can for Homura at the same time. Where every loop was initiated at Madoka's behest, and every tragedy suffered by two souls bracing each other as best they were able.






Madoka didn't doesn't want their story to end at Walpurgisnacht.

You can go back in time, right, Homura?
You can go back and change everything... so that we don't end up like this...





Madoka believed believes that Homura is worth protecting.

Can I ask... one more thing?
Don't let... me turn into a witch...
There's awful, horrible things in this world.
I know that now... but there's a lot of things worth protecting too.





Madoka didn't doesn't want to be tricked into contracting by Kyubey, but felt feels that some things are more important -- Homura especially.

Then save me from being stupid, from getting tricked.
Don't let Kyubey fool me again.





Madoka knew knows that Homura can go back, and so she makes a wish to protect Homura from Walpurgis to ensure that Homura doesn't die, preserving hope for the future. Homura telling her that she can go back or not has nothing to do with it -- Madoka knows it in her heart anyway and tends to dream about it at the start of loops.

-dream scene from episode 10-





Homura's job is to protect Madoka, and Madoka's job is to protect Homura -- whether from suicide by Walpurgis, emotional exhaustion, friendly fire, or anything else. Homura may feel like she's tried absolutely everything, but the time loop hasn't been Homura's fight alone, and her partner made a request of her. Madoka asked Homura not to let Kyubey fool her. Last loop, Homura succeeded at that. And last loop, Madoka found something new -- a way to stack the deck of the next loop.

Nothing Homura has ever done has imposed unwanted suffering on Madoka... Because there has never been a loop that Madoka would accept, and she would rather go through it again than give up on Homura.





I believe this is a potential stable state, which I think is more than anything we've suggested in the past can say. It presents a viewpoint from which Homura has never hurt Madoka, where the loops were a linear progression towards actually preventing Kyubey from fooling Madoka -- we can pass off most of the wish-endings as either being successes on Homura's end where Madoka was still experimenting with wishes to see what she could get to happen before hitting on something really really good last loop, or we can pass them off as minor failures on Homura's end where she had almost gotten the parts right that she needed to so Madoka could make a wish that wouldn't be QB tricking her -- and just generally where the loops are so much less awful than they are from her current point of view... where there's more hope in the world.

The detailwork is, I think, doable. A lot of mileage out of "Madoka is stuck working off of really incomplete memories that are more like gut feelings / dreams than actual knowledge, and waiting until she can't wait any longer before she wishes lets her gather as much context as possible," for instance. I want a thorough fucking review of everything in here before I start suggesting ways to go about pursuing it, though.





Also:
 
This was originally, like, a bunch of things including a vote, but it grew into something a lot more important so I dumped the chaff into storage and am posting this. @AuraTwilight could you look this over for me? And maybe @Godwinson. This may be pretty opaque to people who lack the context of Wraith Arc or who just... haven't spent a lot of time in here.

Abstract: a new viewpoint for the loops which will hopefully provide a goal state to push Homura towards.

Homura believes that she can't deserve happiness because of all the pain she has caused Madoka across the loops -- this is why she eventually surrenders in canon: she decides that there is no way out and that the only thing she has achieved each loop, each reset, has been to force Madoka to walk through the hellscape of their Spring one more time. In canon the potential bomb, when dropped, breaks her resistance by causing her to conclude that each loop can only get worse, and so Madoka can only ever suffer more as long as Homura continues to travel through time. Unmaking this belief is nearly impossible, because Homura perceives that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], and she has spent at least a decade in a hell that has driven this deeply into her psyche.

As of these last couple posts, she seems willing to accept that victory is possible and that she wants that -- she even seems to have accepted that Madoka's wish affecting this timeline is acceptable as long as victory is achieved. But her self-hatred persists, and the thought of being happy -- she can't accept it, because she doesn't deserve it after putting Madoka through so much [PAIN].

Our problem is that nobody has really even been able to envision a stable state to bring Homura into. She is so incredibly traumatized, so riddled with irrational psychoses, so full of self-hatred, that she's practically a witch walking. We require either a method of circumventing Homura's belief that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], that is, some way by which we can convince her that the past is irrelevant as long as the future is [GOOD]... or a method of undermining that belief, that is, some way by which we can convince her that [SHE IS NOT GUILTY]. But convincing her that the past is irrelevant is impossible as a method of accomplishing this, because she'll never accept that it's irrelevant that she has hurt Madoka. Never. And convincing her that she's not guilty of having hurt Madoka... that's impossible too. Right?

But... if we put this under a microscope, the cornerstone of this belief system is that Madoka would have wanted her to stop looping if it was causing Madoka suffering.

If that can be undermined in the right way, the entire accursed architecture might fall apart. But how?

Here, perhaps we can take a lesson from beyond the anime. For those who have read through Wraith Arc, the general belief is that Homura was meant to fight by Madoka's side, using her shield to take Madoka back in time with her, and that that would have led to a Good End -- instead, of course, we get the end of Wraith Arc where Kyubey is the first being to exploit Homura's time travel alongside her, which subsequently leads to an attempt by Kyubey to overthrow the law of cycles and culminates in the birth of Homucifer. The takeaway from that, I think, is that if Madoka and Homura fighting side-by-side would have produced a Good End, it must have involved a resolution or abortion of Homura's self-hatred over her causing Madoka to suffer.

A leap of logic produces this: if Homura can be convinced that Madoka willingly chose to keep going, then what is there left for her to be tortured by?

Perusing the script of episode ten produces a few more ingredients.







The solution we can piece together with this is to convince Homura that the two of them have been fighting together this whole time and that she simply hasn't realized it.

We'll use her perception of Madoka across the timelines as a single person to weave a reality where Homura didn't need to use her shield's ability to carry others back in time to fight alongside Madoka. Where for every step Homura has taken, every battle she has fought for Madoka, Madoka has been fighting however she can for Homura at the same time. Where every loop was initiated at Madoka's behest, and every tragedy suffered by two souls bracing each other as best they were able.






Madoka didn't doesn't want their story to end at Walpurgisnacht.







Madoka believed believes that Homura is worth protecting.







Madoka didn't doesn't want to be tricked into contracting by Kyubey, but felt feels that some things are more important -- Homura especially.







Madoka knew knows that Homura can go back, and so she makes a wish to protect Homura from Walpurgis to ensure that Homura doesn't die, preserving hope for the future. Homura telling her that she can go back or not has nothing to do with it -- Madoka knows it in her heart anyway and tends to dream about it at the start of loops.







Homura's job is to protect Madoka, and Madoka's job is to protect Homura -- whether from suicide by Walpurgis, emotional exhaustion, friendly fire, or anything else. Homura may feel like she's tried absolutely everything, but the time loop hasn't been Homura's fight alone, and her partner made a request of her. Madoka asked Homura not to let Kyubey fool her. Last loop, Homura succeeded at that. And last loop, Madoka found something new -- a way to stack the deck of the next loop.

Nothing Homura has ever done has imposed unwanted suffering on Madoka... Because there has never been a loop that Madoka would accept, and she would rather go through it again than give up on Homura.





I believe this is a potential stable state, which I think is more than anything we've suggested in the past can say. It presents a viewpoint from which Homura has never hurt Madoka, where the loops were a linear progression towards actually preventing Kyubey from fooling Madoka -- we can pass off most of the wish-endings as either being successes on Homura's end where Madoka was still experimenting with wishes to see what she could get to happen before hitting on something really really good last loop, or we can pass them off as minor failures on Homura's end where she had almost gotten the parts right that she needed to so Madoka could make a wish that wouldn't be QB tricking her -- and just generally where the loops are so much less awful than they are from her current point of view... where there's more hope in the world.

The detailwork is, I think, doable. A lot of mileage out of "Madoka is stuck working off of really incomplete memories that are more like gut feelings / dreams than actual knowledge, and waiting until she can't wait any longer before she wishes lets her gather as much context as possible," for instance. I want a thorough fucking review of everything in here before I start suggesting ways to go about pursuing it, though.





Also:


This This whole thing. All of it.

You've just All Of My Emotions, on account of, you literally just outlined my entire unspoken headcanon; I literally have a story premise outline that rests on this. And you've put it to coherent words. Detailwork aside, let it be on the record that I do emotionally believe this to be true, or as true as any interpretation can be. Also, I believe this has a good chance of bringing about a stable state, as you call it, of being a stable metaphysical philosophy, if we can bring it across correctly.

I would like to give you All The Ratings. Also: Could I have permission put a link to your entire post in my signature?
 
This was originally, like, a bunch of things including a vote, but it grew into something a lot more important so I dumped the chaff into storage and am posting this. @AuraTwilight could you look this over for me? And maybe @Godwinson. This may be pretty opaque to people who lack the context of Wraith Arc or who just... haven't spent a lot of time in here.

Abstract: a new viewpoint for the loops which will hopefully provide a goal state to push Homura towards.

Homura believes that she can't deserve happiness because of all the pain she has caused Madoka across the loops -- this is why she eventually surrenders in canon: she decides that there is no way out and that the only thing she has achieved each loop, each reset, has been to force Madoka to walk through the hellscape of their Spring one more time. In canon the potential bomb, when dropped, breaks her resistance by causing her to conclude that each loop can only get worse, and so Madoka can only ever suffer more as long as Homura continues to travel through time. Unmaking this belief is nearly impossible, because Homura perceives that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], and she has spent at least a decade in a hell that has driven this deeply into her psyche.

As of these last couple posts, she seems willing to accept that victory is possible and that she wants that -- she even seems to have accepted that Madoka's wish affecting this timeline is acceptable as long as victory is achieved. But her self-hatred persists, and the thought of being happy -- she can't accept it, because she doesn't deserve it after putting Madoka through so much [PAIN].

Our problem is that nobody has really even been able to envision a stable state to bring Homura into. She is so incredibly traumatized, so riddled with irrational psychoses, so full of self-hatred, that she's practically a witch walking. We require either a method of circumventing Homura's belief that it is a [FACT] that [SHE HAS CAUSED MADOKA UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF PAIN], that is, some way by which we can convince her that the past is irrelevant as long as the future is [GOOD]... or a method of undermining that belief, that is, some way by which we can convince her that [SHE IS NOT GUILTY]. But convincing her that the past is irrelevant is impossible as a method of accomplishing this, because she'll never accept that it's irrelevant that she has hurt Madoka. Never. And convincing her that she's not guilty of having hurt Madoka... that's impossible too. Right?

But... if we put this under a microscope, the cornerstone of this belief system is that Madoka would have wanted her to stop looping if it was causing Madoka suffering.

If that can be undermined in the right way, the entire accursed architecture might fall apart. But how?

Here, perhaps we can take a lesson from beyond the anime. For those who have read through Wraith Arc, the general belief is that Homura was meant to fight by Madoka's side, using her shield to take Madoka back in time with her, and that that would have led to a Good End -- instead, of course, we get the end of Wraith Arc where Kyubey is the first being to exploit Homura's time travel alongside her, which subsequently leads to an attempt by Kyubey to overthrow the law of cycles and culminates in the birth of Homucifer. The takeaway from that, I think, is that if Madoka and Homura fighting side-by-side would have produced a Good End, it must have involved a resolution or abortion of Homura's self-hatred over her causing Madoka to suffer.

A leap of logic produces this: if Homura can be convinced that Madoka willingly chose to keep going, then what is there left for her to be tortured by?

Perusing the script of episode ten produces a few more ingredients.







The solution we can piece together with this is to convince Homura that the two of them have been fighting together this whole time and that she simply hasn't realized it.

We'll use her perception of Madoka across the timelines as a single person to weave a reality where Homura didn't need to use her shield's ability to carry others back in time to fight alongside Madoka. Where for every step Homura has taken, every battle she has fought for Madoka, Madoka has been fighting however she can for Homura at the same time. Where every loop was initiated at Madoka's behest, and every tragedy suffered by two souls bracing each other as best they were able.






Madoka didn't doesn't want their story to end at Walpurgisnacht.







Madoka believed believes that Homura is worth protecting.







Madoka didn't doesn't want to be tricked into contracting by Kyubey, but felt feels that some things are more important -- Homura especially.







Madoka knew knows that Homura can go back, and so she makes a wish to protect Homura from Walpurgis to ensure that Homura doesn't die, preserving hope for the future. Homura telling her that she can go back or not has nothing to do with it -- Madoka knows it in her heart anyway and tends to dream about it at the start of loops.







Homura's job is to protect Madoka, and Madoka's job is to protect Homura -- whether from suicide by Walpurgis, emotional exhaustion, friendly fire, or anything else. Homura may feel like she's tried absolutely everything, but the time loop hasn't been Homura's fight alone, and her partner made a request of her. Madoka asked Homura not to let Kyubey fool her. Last loop, Homura succeeded at that. And last loop, Madoka found something new -- a way to stack the deck of the next loop.

Nothing Homura has ever done has imposed unwanted suffering on Madoka... Because there has never been a loop that Madoka would accept, and she would rather go through it again than give up on Homura.





I believe this is a potential stable state, which I think is more than anything we've suggested in the past can say. It presents a viewpoint from which Homura has never hurt Madoka, where the loops were a linear progression towards actually preventing Kyubey from fooling Madoka -- we can pass off most of the wish-endings as either being successes on Homura's end where Madoka was still experimenting with wishes to see what she could get to happen before hitting on something really really good last loop, or we can pass them off as minor failures on Homura's end where she had almost gotten the parts right that she needed to so Madoka could make a wish that wouldn't be QB tricking her -- and just generally where the loops are so much less awful than they are from her current point of view... where there's more hope in the world.

The detailwork is, I think, doable. A lot of mileage out of "Madoka is stuck working off of really incomplete memories that are more like gut feelings / dreams than actual knowledge, and waiting until she can't wait any longer before she wishes lets her gather as much context as possible," for instance. I want a thorough fucking review of everything in here before I start suggesting ways to go about pursuing it, though.





Also:

The idea that Homu's power was meant to be used alongside others has been around for so long, yet I don't think I would've ever thought of this.

Hmmm... Delivery is key. It'd be obviously easy to frame this in a way that'd make Homu snap... and touching the context of 3rd loop is gonna hurt Homu then and there...

Also, it's difficult in that we'd be trying to make Homu reinterpret something that's been flash fried into her mind, that she doesn't want to see reason with.

Does Homura know about Madoka's dreams?
 
The idea that Homu's power was meant to be used alongside others has been around for so long, yet I don't think I would've ever thought of this.

Hmmm... Delivery is key. It'd be obviously easy to frame this in a way that'd make Homu snap... and touching the context of 3rd loop is gonna hurt Homu then and there...

Also, it's difficult in that we'd be trying to make Homu reinterpret something that's been flash fried into her mind, that she doesn't want to see reason with.

Does Homura know about Madoka's dreams?

It's also annoyingly difficult because of the ending of the last vote/post. The segue is going to be a tad rough.
 
I'm so fucking frustrated. Why do I even bother?

This last vote was useless. It was so awkward that it failed from the very premise. It did not even attempt to address any of Homura's issues, and it showed no understanding of said issues.

What the hell are you people doing?

What made you look at my vote and say, "No, let's just sit her down and talk about random things and thoughts that have nothing to do with her worries or issues. THAT will work!"

I'm just going to (mostly, with a couple of edits) repost my vote from the last round and hope that some people actually learn from their mistakes. And yes, that sounds arrogant of me, but I've tried so many times to convince people nicely, with long, well-reasoned arguments, only for them to be ignored, and I just can't be bothered to repeat myself endlessly.

Like, @Vebyast : Your sole criticism for my vote last time was that "it doesn't go deep enough". Then what the everloving hell was last post's vote, then? That was as shallow as it gets--like we pretended she didn't even have any issues at all. My vote cuts right to the heart of every one of her issues in this matter. I can't really make it more direct or "deep" than this.

Other than that? It was largely ignored by all but a few people, as best I can tell when looking back at it.

So, I'll try pinging everyone, so they don't have an excuse anymore. Because, guys? YOU ARE FUCKING THIS UP. BADLY. How about trying it my way, for once?

@Phigment , @Redshirt Army , @Raiseth , @CornyBones , @HeroCycle , @Onmur , @universalperson , @redzonejoe , @The Phoenixian , @Conjured Blade , @Torgamous , @Jonen C , @Marcus.D.Basterd , @mCooperative , @Kaizuki, @The Narrator

And the people who did vote for it, I call for your help once more:
@Aranfan , @Matou Sutegobana , @ranmatoushin

Onmur, your current vote has issues. Namely, it mistakes intentions with effective actions. You can want to reassure Homura and make sure she knows we have faith in her, but saying such won't actually reassure her or make her feel better about herself. You're not addressing any of her issues. Bringing up Feathers like that won't help. You're not actually addressing any of her issues, and it shows in how last post played out--Sabrina just meandering around various topics, not addressing any of Homura's issues in any way, and she's left feeling even worse because it seems to her like we just don't even begin to understand her concerns/fears/issues.

[X] "Okay, let me back up. I didn't properly address your concerns before, so I'll do that first."
[X] "Firstly, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would."
[X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
[X] "You know hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything. Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
[X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."

We'll go into "how you can be happy" after this. Which we wouldn't have to do in the first place, if people had just listened the first time around.

SaltyWaffles.

Firstly, I didn't vote for the winning vote in this update, nor did I vote for the previous vote, and I don't really think I'm fucking this up badly just by existing, writing posts or responding to your posts specifically.

Secondly, could you please calm down?
You tagged half of the questers as people who fuck things up. Many of these people have opinions differing to yours and those of each other, but they are trying to have a productive discussion and ( mostly ) peacefully resolve their issues and reach consensus.

Thirdly, I'm going to tell you this a fellow quester and I don't want you to take it personally. Swearing at someone and telling them they "fuck things up" doesn't usually lead to people changing their opinions to your. It almost never works in the Internet, and most of the times when it works, it works for the people who have already had held the opinion of the majority. You don't have that luxury.

Well, whatever. I realize that I wasn't active enough or productive enough in the recent days, so I do have some responsibility in the situation as it is now. Honestly, I don't think it's gotten worse than before. Homu had been long overdue for some sort of emotional breakdown, considering the hellish situation she's living in, and it will assuredly get worse before it gets better. Right now she just needs to let it out, to admit her fears to us and herself. Then we can help her with them.

That's my opinion, which happens to coincide with many of the questers I admire. What a surprise!:V

Tomorrow, after I had at least six hours of sleep, I'm gonna sift through the posts, reread the update and form a more cohesive opinion, which could possibly coincide with yours.

Many more people could change their opinions if you tired to explain them in calm words, using mild language.
 
It's also annoyingly difficult because of the ending of the last vote/post. The segue is going to be a tad rough.
I think, just like before, we need to be careful to not rush, offer plenty of support and reassurance (and object to Homu's self hating), and take our time.

We need to always show Homura her concerns are important; previous update that was things working because of us/Madoka's wish, rather than her own efforts as she sees them; this update we need to address the feelings she's expressed. Of course, we also need to guide this conversation. Not like Homu would.

I'd like to tell Homu all the ways she's helped, maybe, but that might be besides the point.

I think we can move from 'Homu deserves better, she can have her happy ending' into the points about how she hasn't made everything worse.

Not that we haven't said this, but we wouldn't be here if not for her. Of course, again, not what Homu wants to hear.


How about...

- Object. Homu is Good. She deserves better.
-- None of this is her fault.
- We believe she does, not because of a Wish, but because we know her.

The point about MadoWish is still floating unfinished in the air, maybe we can grab it back down, since it ties with Loop3?

- Reassure Homu she hasn't failed. Madoka didn't Wish to fix everything with her own hands (WOULD IT BE A TERRIBLE IDEA TO BRING UP CANON END LOOP YES?), but... so that everyone's Wish could be fulfilled. Her own, and Homura's.

- AT THIS POINT SEGUE???
 
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