Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Spotted a few spelling errors:
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah Firn is sending some not so subtle signals we're on shaky ground and we need to proceed extremely carefully. That's not to say this wasn't necessary but still careful now.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[]Does anybody ever? Deserve or not, I don't care, even if you can't see it, I want to help you find it. For acting as a force multiplier beyond my wildest dreams, being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, enduring the ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring , host refugees in the first place was you. The reason I can perform operations outside Mitakihara without gambling the apocalypse on full disclosure? You. The reason I was able to get any use out of Oriko and Kirika in the first place instead of still fighting them or being forced to kill them? You. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
Last edited:
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Hmmm...
Gut instinct: Affirming that Homura is needed.
(Telling her she is good person who deserves good things comes before or after, I don't know. Probably after, since Homu probably woudn't hear it now?)
So, for one we could go ahead and re-affirm Homu is needed to protect Madoka.
We can turn the world on its head and fix every issue out there forever, but we can't protect everyone all the time. Protecting Madoka is Homura's job, necessarily.
Second, Feathers.
Explicitly, not Feathers because Oriko says Feathers exists, but Feathers because we can't deny something shitty is going on, what with Sayaka's mysterious Witch Kissing... and maybe we can offer metaknowledge, too.
I've long believed Feathers is some sort of equal and opposite reaction to us, so just like we're here to fix things, Feathers is around to unfix things.
And we believe we will need Homu's help in order to deal with Feathers (partly because Oriko is so sure of it, but also because she's our friend who is far more capable she can possibly give herself credit for).
...
Maybe we can point out that she never was meant to do this alone? That while the loops would destroy us (and still haven't broken her), the reason we're doing so good is because it's our first time trying, but we have all the metaknowledge accumulated from Homu's loops to guide us.
Hmmm... And remember to tell Homu she's good. She might not believe it, but it'll do her good.
Gut instinct: Affirming that Homura is needed.
(Telling her she is good person who deserves good things comes before or after, I don't know. Probably after, since Homu probably woudn't hear it now?)
So, for one we could go ahead and re-affirm Homu is needed to protect Madoka.
We can turn the world on its head and fix every issue out there forever, but we can't protect everyone all the time. Protecting Madoka is Homura's job, necessarily.
Second, Feathers.
Explicitly, not Feathers because Oriko says Feathers exists, but Feathers because we can't deny something shitty is going on, what with Sayaka's mysterious Witch Kissing... and maybe we can offer metaknowledge, too.
I've long believed Feathers is some sort of equal and opposite reaction to us, so just like we're here to fix things, Feathers is around to unfix things.
And we believe we will need Homu's help in order to deal with Feathers (partly because Oriko is so sure of it, but also because she's our friend who is far more capable she can possibly give herself credit for).
...
Maybe we can point out that she never was meant to do this alone? That while the loops would destroy us (and still haven't broken her), the reason we're doing so good is because it's our first time trying, but we have all the metaknowledge accumulated from Homu's loops to guide us.
Hmmm... And remember to tell Homu she's good. She might not believe it, but it'll do her good.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Oh, for fuck's sake.
So apparently the vote that we spent all that time working on and got to a winning number of votes came too late and got ignored. So Firn went one of the "credit everything to Madoka's wish" votes, which had exactly the effect that I said it would and mad Homura feel worse.
So I say we just go ahead and make basically that same vote again, and hope that this time it actually gets said.
So apparently the vote that we spent all that time working on and got to a winning number of votes came too late and got ignored. So Firn went one of the "credit everything to Madoka's wish" votes, which had exactly the effect that I said it would and mad Homura feel worse.
So I say we just go ahead and make basically that same vote again, and hope that this time it actually gets said.
You mean like I've been telling you for the last several days?
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Redshirt's vote had no context, merely saying "do thing" and looks like it stripped whole sections of mCooperative's earlier vote. Given the trouble we've had before with sentence-long bits of votes being cut down to two or three words it's not surprising that it came to this.Oh, for fuck's sake.
So apparently the vote that we spent all that time working on and got to a winning number of votes came too late and got ignored. So Firn went one of the "credit everything to Madoka's wish" votes, which had exactly the effect that I said it would and mad Homura feel worse.
So I say we just go ahead and make basically that same vote again, and hope that this time it actually gets said.
You mean like I've been telling you for the last several days?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
So, I can think a few ways this could go wrong, but I want to consider sharing our knowledge of the last canon loop.
Telling Homu that the events we knew about are different from what's happened in PMAS; how Madoka made a Wish that had her fix everything with her own hands. Share our speculation that something make PMAS Doka realize what this would have done to Homu, and that she must have made this different Wish so it was someone else in her place, fixing things, so that Homu could have her chance at accomplishing her own Wish still.
That's Madoka's Wish. This has been discussed, yes?
Could this help, if we share it with Homura?
Punctuation and linebreaks help as with any text, but super long votes are not just disrespectful, they're actually hard to understand and votecraft with. And of course, interpret when the QM needs to write.
I mean, that's common sense, right?
Telling Homu that the events we knew about are different from what's happened in PMAS; how Madoka made a Wish that had her fix everything with her own hands. Share our speculation that something make PMAS Doka realize what this would have done to Homu, and that she must have made this different Wish so it was someone else in her place, fixing things, so that Homu could have her chance at accomplishing her own Wish still.
That's Madoka's Wish. This has been discussed, yes?
Could this help, if we share it with Homura?
Just don't let the votes bloat to the point they're difficult to understand.
Punctuation and linebreaks help as with any text, but super long votes are not just disrespectful, they're actually hard to understand and votecraft with. And of course, interpret when the QM needs to write.
I mean, that's common sense, right?
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
You mean you wanted the right thing for this moment at a moment in which it wasn't the right thing?You mean like I've been telling you for the last several days?
Why would you do that?
Homu just expressed her own feelings of inadequacy, of not deserving (good things), of being bad, basically. Now is the time to act on it.
We never disagreed that these must likely needed to be done, onlt at the timing.
Kai's vote, which I supported, had the purpose of doing exactly this (in this regard): help Homura express herself so we could then reassure her.
If you wanted to do this this update, then I was right in thinking you were rushing the hell up. That would've not gone right; this is only a possibly right course of action right now, not before.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I like this, but think it could use a slightly more explicit note on "her watching Mitakihara and our backs" and and possibly her aid in saving Sayaka, but yeah, it's good.
Unless that's what you mean by "Gambling the apocalypse on full disclosure" but that's a bit weirdly worded and sounds like you're referring to Homura informing us of stuff rather than her keeping guard.
inb4 Madoka is the Queen Administrator
Last edited:
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
So, comment. I believe there's one thing that's the most important in this conversation, and it's to reassure Homura. Simple as that.
There's other important things to do, and as much as possible (without rushing) we should address Homura's specific concerns, but the most important part for this string of updates is gonna be to reassure Homura.
Emotional support. She needs it more than she lets herself believe.
There's other important things to do, and as much as possible (without rushing) we should address Homura's specific concerns, but the most important part for this string of updates is gonna be to reassure Homura.
Emotional support. She needs it more than she lets herself believe.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Yeah her watching Mitakihara is what lets us operate outside it without gambling the apocalypse on madoka being able to replicate our wish or bootstrap herself to godhood. I'm not sure of a better way to put it right now. Any ideas?
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Can we continue to hug Homura? I'm not sure this is the right conversational break for it, but I feel that Homura continues to need hugs.
That sounds like you jest, but on the other hand, we had a brief, shining moment in which the vote was a screencap collage of present discussion. And a flowchart would be clearer than another vote-strosity from me, so, **shrug**.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
What's up there isn't Redshirt's vote at all. Firn must have started writing the update before Redshirt's vote surpassed the others.
No, telling her more about Madoka's Wish will absolutely not help. Homura feels that she's failed because she is not saving Madoka as she wished to do. The more credit you give to Madoka's Wish, the less worthy Homura will feel.
That's what using hypens to indent is supposed to do, but people never use 'em right.
But jumping immediately into talking about Madoka's wish wasn't rushing? And I don't remember you warning us about anything of the sort.
Have you even been reading the thread? Because the rest of us figured out that this was what Homura was feeling based on what she said last update, and while we were going to try to get her to talk more about it to make sure, we were also going to avoid blurting out a bunch of stuff about Madoka's Wish that would make her feel worse in the process, and even warned you repeatedly that doing so would make Homura feel worse, which it just did.
Okay, basically the same vote as last time, but the no-wordcount-limit version with full context:
[x] Main goals, in no particular order:
-[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
-[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
[x] Overall tone and subtext:
-[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
-[x] Comforting and encouraging.
--[x] Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
[x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
[x] "I'm not succeeding. We're succeeding. Together. Everything we've done--it's been all of us."
-[x] "We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because it knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this."
-[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka.
--[x] Remind her: Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises
---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
----[x] Tracking down Oriko
----[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
----[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
-----[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
----[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
--[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.
--[x] And we--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
-[x] If the problem is Homura not liking herself; feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before; feeling that Sabrina is doing better with the same tools; possibly regards Sabrina emphasizing Homura's contributions as platitudes.
--[x] Remind her that Sabrina is cheating:
---[x] Sabrina got to start with the knowledge that Homura had to learn the hard way over multiple loops, so she could make a wish that broke the system.
----[x] Griefbending: Power that specifically derails resource issues
----[x] Also, we had Homura as an ally. Don't let her sell herself short: we stand on the shoulders of giants.
-----[x] Remind Homura of her contributions; connect this back to the above.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
What I had been writing, before I stopped and gave up, went like this:
[] She helps you here and now: Catching Oriko, saving Sayaka, the money and opportunity to even have the chance to go out and make allies? Is all because you have her here, watching your back. And she keeps you from doing dumb things too.
The bolded bit being the relevant section.
No, what's up there is the same vote in abeyance that was in the last vote, that we made two votes ago.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Nah. This vote under-performed. A lot. I think we can see why. First biggest issue here is-
Not Knowing The Territory.
We (voters) need to turn our love into understanding. Technical understanding. Some folks may benefit from reading these? "just" trying to support Homura is insufficient, if we don't do it with her problems in mind. Support will only be partial, and we won't help enough, if we can't get it to her past the wall of her symptoms. Oh, there is also her abusive past, but one at a time<
All or Nothing', or 'Black and White' Thinking and Depression
The long-term costs of traumatic stress: intertwined physical and psychological consequences
https://nvf.org/effects-of-ptsd-in-veterans/
Regular comfort is only part of the picture.
Think more. Be able. Since we went down this rabbit hole, we are assuming the burden of therapy. Do it, by which I mean, learn how to do it.
Not Knowing The Territory.
We (voters) need to turn our love into understanding. Technical understanding. Some folks may benefit from reading these? "just" trying to support Homura is insufficient, if we don't do it with her problems in mind. Support will only be partial, and we won't help enough, if we can't get it to her past the wall of her symptoms. Oh, there is also her abusive past, but one at a time<
All or Nothing', or 'Black and White' Thinking and Depression
The long-term costs of traumatic stress: intertwined physical and psychological consequences
https://nvf.org/effects-of-ptsd-in-veterans/
Regular comfort is only part of the picture.
Think more. Be able. Since we went down this rabbit hole, we are assuming the burden of therapy. Do it, by which I mean, learn how to do it.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Clarifying my earlier proposal with what I mean by disclosure for people to improve/incorporating Phoenixian's proposal.
[]Does anybody ever? Deserve or not, I don't care, even if you can't see it, I want to help you find it. For acting as a force multiplier beyond my wildest dreams, being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, enduring the ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. Catching Oriko, saving Sayaka, the money and opportunity to even have the chance to go out and make allies? Is all because I have you here, watching my back. Regardless of the nature of fate here, having to justify myself to you is good practice to keep myself from doing something so idealistic it circles around into dumb. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
Edit: Looks like I removed disclosure mentioning completely. Oh well.
[]Does anybody ever? Deserve or not, I don't care, even if you can't see it, I want to help you find it. For acting as a force multiplier beyond my wildest dreams, being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, enduring the ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. Catching Oriko, saving Sayaka, the money and opportunity to even have the chance to go out and make allies? Is all because I have you here, watching my back. Regardless of the nature of fate here, having to justify myself to you is good practice to keep myself from doing something so idealistic it circles around into dumb. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
Edit: Looks like I removed disclosure mentioning completely. Oh well.
Last edited:
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I meant what Sabrina did during the update, not what's in the "vote in abeyance" spoiler.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Yep. Maybe you cherry picked which parts you read?
Because it was confirmed (not for the first time) that Firn was taking into account more than the winning vote while writing.
I do believe this update went with pretty much the general idea of what the thread as a whole wanted to happen, and that does include Madowish talk (it's in the vote you voted for at the end, in case you didn't see it).
Also,
at this so hard:Homura is telling us how she feels. Period. This was the whole point of the vote I supported, though I had hoped we had reached this point before going into Madowish talk: That Homura says what she feels.
It's happening! Now we can help her with it.
I'm feeling pretty well about this, Homunshedtears aside.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
So, examining in detail, I'm wary of the "force multiplier" bit since we've had problems with that before. (We've caused problems trying to build up Mami that way back during the Apprehension.) Homura's mindset isn't Mami's, but it feels like that kind of compliment could feed into the nutcracker/good-for-nothing mentality.
Likewise "My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem." contains a good fundamental point. (That we do not and cannot do this alone) But I think it's approached from the wrong perspective.
I also do like, the original "The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring , host refugees in the first place was you." you had before, and the longer Oriko note. I just feel it might be better broken into a block instead of condensed.
The actions taken seem pretty typical of an over-generalized vote. Sabrina seems to give a roughly proportional amount of attention to a point that the vote does and, if stuff isn't laid out in detail, Firn often seems to default to the next highest vote that does say stuff.
Last edited:
- Location
- The Outer Plane Of Munchkinry.
No. Bad kitty. No bully the Homura. *Sprays the Homura with water* Now you apologise to you for saying such hurtful things.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Vote crafting bits. Vomited!
[ ] Main: Reassure Homura. Show faith and support.
[ ] Re-affirm your belief in Homura. You know what she's gone through, even if you can't understand how much it must've hurt. Homura is Good, amazing even.
-[ ] She deserves better that she ever got.
-[ ] She'll get there. We'll help. Not because of a Wish, but because we believe in her.
This would be an attempt to counter Homu's expressed worries just now.
[ ] Homura is needed.
-[ ] We could go out there and fix the world, but we can't protect everyone all the time. That's why we've got friends; why we've got her.
-[ ] Nobody can protect Madoka like Homura can. Nobody else will walk through hell for Madoka.
--[Q] Play some metal song.
-[ ] Or refine Conjured Blade's vote.
-[ ] Feathers: Disregard Oriko, explain metaknowledge; belief of Feathers being a direct and opposite reaction to us being here to help, and that we will need Homura to beat whatever Feathers is. Meta: We were handed far more power than anybody else, yet we always knew this wouldn't be easy. We know we won't win this through megatons, but with the help of our friends.
This would be working on the previous point. I doubt we can convince her she is deserving, in just a few minutes, but we can argue that she's needed nonetheless. Will Homu stop protecting Madoka? No.
Idea: Use metaknowledge. We always knew Sabrina would be OP for PMMM standards, and yet that the quest would be difficult. It's about the people.
[ ] We'll help Homura save Madoka. Will she help us save everyone else?
Maybe, it could help if we offered this as a bit of an exchange. We're not just swooping down and fixing everything; Homu is not getting everything handed to her for free. She wants to work for it, help her work for it.
(Like she's been doing, like Conjured Blade's vote touched on.)
[ ] Main: Reassure Homura. Show faith and support.
[ ] Re-affirm your belief in Homura. You know what she's gone through, even if you can't understand how much it must've hurt. Homura is Good, amazing even.
-[ ] She deserves better that she ever got.
-[ ] She'll get there. We'll help. Not because of a Wish, but because we believe in her.
This would be an attempt to counter Homu's expressed worries just now.
[ ] Homura is needed.
-[ ] We could go out there and fix the world, but we can't protect everyone all the time. That's why we've got friends; why we've got her.
-[ ] Nobody can protect Madoka like Homura can. Nobody else will walk through hell for Madoka.
--[Q] Play some metal song.
-[ ] Or refine Conjured Blade's vote.
-[ ] Feathers: Disregard Oriko, explain metaknowledge; belief of Feathers being a direct and opposite reaction to us being here to help, and that we will need Homura to beat whatever Feathers is. Meta: We were handed far more power than anybody else, yet we always knew this wouldn't be easy. We know we won't win this through megatons, but with the help of our friends.
This would be working on the previous point. I doubt we can convince her she is deserving, in just a few minutes, but we can argue that she's needed nonetheless. Will Homu stop protecting Madoka? No.
Idea: Use metaknowledge. We always knew Sabrina would be OP for PMMM standards, and yet that the quest would be difficult. It's about the people.
[ ] We'll help Homura save Madoka. Will she help us save everyone else?
Maybe, it could help if we offered this as a bit of an exchange. We're not just swooping down and fixing everything; Homu is not getting everything handed to her for free. She wants to work for it, help her work for it.
(Like she's been doing, like Conjured Blade's vote touched on.)