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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Roomba said:
This would be very difficult to execute for both players and @Firnagzen. We'd have little time to discuss our vote (note how the update dropped on Wednesday and there still isn't consensus) and would force Firn to write on very short notice, which can be a big problem depending on his other commitments. This is why a lot of quests stick to predictable schedules.
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Going by past PMAS, it depends on Firn's schedule; he's often been willing to do short updates, even offered to do one line votes one time, IIRC.

The problem with short votes... depends; at times there was no shit going down that required quick back and forth, Firn has asked for longer votes so he could write more; at times where shit was going down... we tended to go for long, super-controlling votes that tried to address every possible thing that could happen (and failed).

If Firn's schedule/muse won't allow short daily updates... I'd rather have normal paced short updates, this situation merits it.
 
LendvaV said:
If if-clauses are the problem, can't we just put a couple lines in the vote and break the update there, then have like another 24 hours for another small update, and so on?
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The issue seems at least partially that there is a certain level of distrust of the voting block to stick to a particular approach that we all agree won't explode the conversation, instead of taking in new data, having everyone change their minds again, and then having to rehash this argument. As opposed to agreeing now on contingencies that are cohesive, and then sticking to them without trying to improvise halfway through with new intel, and having the voting base loose attention. I assume that this argument has happened more than once, for posters who've been here since nearer the start, and they're a bit burned out on it?

Edit: ninja'd (45 minutes ago because my computer didn't update me, heh). And also the Firn's schedule thing, and the amount of time we wouldn't get to discuss stuff.
 
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[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.
-[X] And to cleanse.
[X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
-[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
-[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
--[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
--[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
 
You know, I kinda liked SaltyWaffle's vote, I think we should put someamount of effort in healing homura's Self worth with things she can accept as facts.
 
Ernest352 said:
You know, I kinda liked SaltyWaffle's vote, I think we should put someamount of effort in healing homura's Self worth with things she can accept as facts.
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While I do see the logic in saying, "I'm only doing this well because I cheat," to show that it's not a failing of Homura's that she couldn't do what we did, I'm concerned that reeling off a list of advantages that Sabrina has is just going to make Homura feel even more superfluous. Also, Salty's last line is treading a little too close to the potentialbomb, and I don't think we intend to try to drop that at this time.
 
@mCooperative I was able to cut your vote down by about half.

[x] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
[x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] If further communication indicates that the above is not the cause of Homura's distress, attempt to get her to share what is. Don't continue to pursue the angle suggested below if it has been found to be irrelevant.
[x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.
[x] Disambiguation: use of first person plural pronouns in the following is meant to indicate the entire team, not just Sabrina. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
[x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
[x] We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because he knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this.
[x] Ask:
-[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
-[x] To sit down.
-[x] To cleanse.
[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
-[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
-[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
-[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
-[x] Tracking down Oriko
-[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
-[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
-[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
-[x] We--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
 
The Narrator said:
@mCooperative I was able to cut your vote down by about half.

[x] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
[x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] If further communication indicates that the above is not the cause of Homura's distress, attempt to get her to share what is. Don't continue to pursue the angle suggested below if it has been found to be irrelevant.
[x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.
[x] Disambiguation: use of first person plural pronouns in the following is meant to indicate the entire team, not just Sabrina. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
[x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
[x] We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because he knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this.
[x] Ask:
-[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
-[x] To sit down.
-[x] To cleanse.
[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
-[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
-[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
-[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
-[x] Tracking down Oriko
-[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
-[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
-[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
-[x] We--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
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I like this, but I feel like keeping the contingencies about the other two-and-a-half or so prongs the conversation could take would be nice. Possibly necessary. If it is in fact the case Homura feels feels that this is platitudes of a sort, or if it's not reassuring enough- I recall that we've had part of this conversation before. Residue Processing pt. 2 and pt. 6 touch on this a bit, and it wasn't so long ago for Homura. If we can convince her, in her emotions not just her head, of her worth and her crucial place at the center of things, that's great. But it's not unlikely that we'll be left with an "and so?" or an "and then?" at the end of our attempt to convince her in this way- so having it written explicitly that yes, we've got advantages- and why they're less "ways we're better" and more "ways we've been positioned"- and being ready to address that feels like something that we'd like to have in the vote explicitly. As your modification stands, despite its word length, it doesn't actually cover a lot of conversation space, and, as @Vebyast has said, there's a certain lack of faith that if we need to segue the topic in a separate vote that we'll stick to the direction that we've half-hashed out now.

Going from your "Homura, you're crucial to this too, don't sell yourself short", and then if necessary being ready to head off her pointing to us and how we've done on our own with "I was positioned in exactly the right place for the person I am to make changes, I was given advantages for that position, and they all come from you and what you've done before me", and then finally being ready to gently address the Madowish because it is information that's a bit of an elephant, is a progression that covers a bit more conversational space, and gives a certain amount of... concession and negotiation, between the three main ways we seem to be parsing this potential conversation.

I still have one or two more things to do before I can actually get back into working on this, but my plan was mostly to go into the Madowish third of my frankenvote and make sure that while it can definitively state "have faith in the Madoka who believes in you", that it also covers the possible case where that would be coming on too strongly and would be taking too much of Homura's agency, and so has the necessary contingencies to stay at the level of "Madoka made a wish, I think it created me, and it created me so that you could have the breathing room to protect Madoka properly, not have to deal with the back end of the bullshit that occasionally comes down like a rain to fuck things up, and also so Madoka could feel like she's done something useful without actually being in harms way anymore" or something a bit more nuanced than that but more subtle than "Madoka literally fixed it", which I agree, would not be something I'd bet on helping unless we get more signals from Homura about.

tl;dr: I'd still rather have the contingency stack, because it seems like it may cover more people's ideas effectively, leave less of a solid "Hell no" divide in our strategy, and give a bit more certainty for "so we all approximately agree these are acceptable directions to head under these specific conversational conditions".
 
mCooperative said:
As your modification stands, despite its word length, it doesn't actually cover a lot of conversation space, and, as @Vebyast has said, there's a certain lack of faith that if we need to segue the topic in a separate vote that we'll stick to the direction that we've half-hashed out now.
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The thing is, if this is a non-starter and we need to do another vote, will we want to stick to that direction? We'll have learned new things and will want to adjust our approach accordingly. Not wanting to blindly steamroll on with a prepared script that isn't working is why we have shit like adding a "break to voting if this isn't working" conditional.

But part of it is also that I'm extremely sleep deprived and couldn't really come up with a contingency stack that I liked. And the contingency stack that was there was all very Madowish focused and I've said why I think bringing that up is a dubious prospect at best.

Feel free to add to this or make adjustments.
 
The Narrator said:
The thing is, if this is a non-starter and we need to do another vote, will we want to stick to that direction? We'll have learned new things and will want to adjust our approach accordingly. Not wanting to blindly steamroll on with a prepared script that isn't working is why we have shit like adding a "break to voting if this isn't working" conditional.

But part of it is also that I'm extremely sleep deprived and couldn't really come up with a contingency stack that I liked. And the contingency stack that was there was all very Madowish focused and I've said why I think bringing that up is a dubious prospect at best.

Feel free to add to this or make adjustments.
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Mostly, contingencies following "if these specific things happen, then we know what to do", because those are what seem to be interpreted as the most likely paths. If we do diverge from those trains of thought, then yeah, "break to vote", but again, having it in writing an agreement "what do if this path == true". We've got three or four paths planned, and voting those in as contingencies seems to be what would satisfy folks generally, and if none of those contingencies are right, then we can go back to the drawing board satisfied that we know none of them are right and that we've all had a chance to test our piece.

Gonna take a shot at it when homework is done- if @Firnagzen can confirm we still have discussion time?
Adhoc vote count started by mCooperative on Apr 14, 2018 at 1:41 AM, finished with 136288 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future, by telling her to have faith in Madoka, who has faith in her, and whose Wish makes it now possible to succeed. Also deal with:
    -[x] The conflict between her promise to Madoka, and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself, feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. I've been handed so much. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
    [X] Ask:
    -[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
    -[X] To sit down.
    -[X] To cleanse.
    [x] Tone: Quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing.
    [x] I've been given so much.
    -[x] Knowledge
    --[x] Literally a guidebook.
    ---[x] Not just what people could do, who they could be, events, information. You've got that.
    ---[x] I was given narrative framing; the exact information that could change things; the certainty that it's the information that matters. And a decent suggestion on where to apply it. That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?
    -[x] Power that specifically derails resource issues
    --[x] The single greatest tool that Homura hadn't been able to leverage before.
    -[x] Tone: Gentle levity, sincerity: And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura.
    --[x] Tone: More serious: Don't sell yourself short. I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.
    --[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
    ---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    ---[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
    ---[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    ----[x] Tracking down Oriko
    ----[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    ---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    ---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    --[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    --[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're -just here to help her.
    [x] If there's an indication during any of the above that this is not actually answering Homura's unspoken question, or if we get through the above and it looks like the conversation still has steam to keep going:
    -[x] But there's more than that, we both suspect, huh?
    -[x] I'm just going to say it- we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here.
    --[x] Tone: Gently: It's pretty likely I'm a result of Madoka's wish last loop. Specially equipped to work on the fixing of everything.
    --[x] But... I don't think it's just me. And I have some thoughts about that, if you want me to try and explain them.
    [x] If we're given no reason to avoid this line of conversation:
    -[x] If you doesn't want to say anything, that's fine. But please- if you want me to start somewhere else, elaborate, go back to a point- anything...
    -[X] Do our best to answer anything she wants to know, explain everything, to the best of our ability. She needs that.
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    --[X] Lay out all your evidence. The timings of events; Nagisa. Echoes of could-have-been-timelines; Sayaka's behaviour. Etc.
    --[X] Madoka's Wish is helping by more than just adding Sabrina
    ---[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    ----[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    ---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    ---[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    ---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    ---[x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    ----[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    ----[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [X] Null
    [x] Wait to see if Homura has more to say.
    -[x] If she doesn't, Vebyast's vote.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
    -[x] If further communication indicates that the above is not the cause of Homura's distress, attempt to get her to share what is. Don't continue to pursue the angle suggested below if it has been found to be irrelevant.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.
    [x] Disambiguation: use of first person plural pronouns in the following is meant to indicate the entire team, not just Sabrina. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
    [x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
    [x] We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because he knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this.
    [X] Ask:
    -[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
    -[X] To sit down.
    -[X] To cleanse.
    [x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
    -[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    -[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
    -[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    -[x] Tracking down Oriko
    -[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    -[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    -[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    [x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    [x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
    -[x] We--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
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Contingency voting huh? Isn't that exactly the sort of thing the wordcount limit was put in place to squelch? Not to mention the sort of thing that always always always blows up in our face?

I'm done. I cannot with this vote anymore.
 
Aranfan said:
Contingency voting huh? Isn't that exactly the sort of thing the wordcount limit was put in place to squelch?
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While I was, in fact, not around for the events you're citing with reference to the inception of the wordcount limit, I did ask Firn to clarify the related "specific dialogue direction + wordcount" issue and wasn't given any indication that contingency voting was a motive at hand. That said, it wasn't a main topic of the discussion, so, before this goes any further and I invest even more of my past-midnight on this vote monstrosity:

@Firnagzen , could you clarify your policy on contingency voting? That is, in cases where the wordcount is being exceeded for purposes of clarity or specific direction, do you have objections to votes comprised of extensive "if this happens, do this, otherwise, do this" logic? What about in the hypothetical case we attempt to fit if-else logic within a given wordcount?

Also, sorry for tagging you for your attention two posts in a row.



To whom my vote may concern: That is, @The Narrator, @Racoras , @Qwertystop , @Filraen , @Matou Sutegobana : I plan to resume edits on my vote proposal in the morning (EST), if Firn has both indicated extensive contingency voting is permissible, and that there is still time for discussion on this specific vote. Otherwise, I will likely switch to The Narrator's vote, unless someone pulls in with some revolutionary counterproposal to the three main non-contingency votes.
 
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mCooperative said:
While I was, in fact, not around for the events you're citing with reference to the inception of the wordcount limit, I did ask Firn to clarify the related "specific dialogue direction + wordcount" issue and wasn't given any indication that contingency voting was a motive at hand. That said, it wasn't a main topic of the discussion, so, before this goes any further and I invest even more of my past-midnight on this vote monstrosity:

@Firnagzen , could you clarify your policy on contingency voting? That is, in cases where the wordcount is being exceeded for purposes of clarity or specific direction, do you have objections to votes comprised of extensive "if this happens, do this, otherwise, do this" logic? What about in the hypothetical case we attempt to fit if-else logic within a given wordcount?

Also, sorry for tagging you for your attention two posts in a row.
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I'll point out that one of the things that's been done in the (recent) past for dealing with uncertainty is goal based voting. With generalized goals providing the broad direction of the vote and specifics for use when and where desired.

Basically Sort of like:

[] lead in/prefix block

[] goals, in order of priority
-[] goal 1
--[] additional notes if necessary
-[] goal 2
-[] goal 3

[] potential specifics
-[] exact quote
-[] more detailed point

It's not for everything, and with the recent aggressive wordcount optimization it never really got fully developed, but Firn had some kind words for it in the past and it sounds like that might be what you're looking for.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I'll point out that one of the things that's been done in the (recent) past for dealing with uncertainty is goal based voting. With generalized goals providing the broad direction of the vote and specifics for use when and where desired.

Basically Sort of like:

[] lead in/prefix block

[] goals, in order of priority
-[] goal 1
--[] additional notes if necessary
-[] goal 2
-[] goal 3

[] potential specifics
-[] exact quote
-[] more detailed point

It's not for everything, and with the recent aggressive wordcount optimization it never really got fully developed, but Firn had some kind words for it in the past and it sounds like that might be what you're looking for.
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Hm. Will have to take that into account. Whether heavy contingencies are veto'd or not, that seems good for streamlining whatever direction we head in. Making it more comprehensible than my stapled-together-vote-whatsit, anyway. }=o)

In the morning, though. Actually good night this time, because otherwise I'll be here another hour until 4 am. (Yes. The next hour will become two hours. That's how this works. That was clearly deliberate. Really.)
 
A lot of that goal-based voting recently seemed to take the form of "apply hugs, use a gentle caring tone.... why didnt it work?!". With Hijiri especially it just rolled off like water on a duck, its not complex enough to deal with someone like Homura in a non-condescending way, and really it seemed like it was getting slapped onto a lot of situations where it should just be written in as a permavote/part of Brina-pilot.

Besides, part of the point of mCooperative's vote was to try and list the goals of "we suspect theory A, and will probe for that, but we're keeping aware that it may be wrong and instead theory B and C so prepare for those". All the other short-style votes seem to be instead "go whole hog on favorite theory A, break to voting if its wrong" or else want another mini-update to help settle on just the one theory. So like I said earlier, if people don't want rapid mini-updates because it limits discussion and is too prone to distracted voting blocks causing shifts each new update... then we need to be writing votes that can actually cover a full update.
 
Racoras said:
So like I said earlier, if people don't want rapid mini-updates because it limits discussion and is too prone to distracted voting blocks causing shifts each new update...
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I don't believe that this is a valid concern, frankly. If the voters are changing the plan between updates, it's because new information has suggested a different approach, not because they got distracted by a shiny thing and wandered away. Have some faith in the people in the thread; we've gotten along quite well thus far.



And on a not-unrelated note, is anyone else a little troubled by the silence in here? Normally when there was a tough vote being worked on, this thread would be a flurry of activity. (Even if there were no decisions to be made it would be a flurry of shitposting.) Instead, all of the most prolific posters have been quiet all day. The question then arises: if they're not discussing the vote here then where are they discussing it? @Firnagzen quite firmly ordered that all voting discussion should take place here, not in secret on Discord or in PMs to try to exclude the general populace from the decision-making.
 
The Narrator said:
I don't believe that this is a valid concern, frankly. If the voters are changing the plan between updates, it's because new information has suggested a different approach, not because they got distracted by a shiny thing and wandered away. Have some faith in the people in the thread; we've gotten along quite well thus far.



And on a not-unrelated note, is anyone else a little troubled by the silence in here? Normally when there was a tough vote being worked on, this thread would be a flurry of activity. (Even if there were no decisions to be made it would be a flurry of shitposting.) Instead, all of the most prolific posters have been quiet all day. The question then arises: if they're not discussing the vote here then where are they discussing it? @Firnagzen quite firmly ordered that all voting discussion should take place here, not in secret on Discord or in PMs to try to exclude the general populace from the decision-making.
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Perhaps people are simply busy? That happens sometimes. I know Vebyast is currently unable to participate in the thread.

In my case, it's mostly my anxiety issues keeping me from participating in the thread a lot. Unlike a chat, anything I post here will stay here for a long time, and people might be reading it a year in the future and going 'oh wow what an idiot'. Also, the discussion kinda scares me a bit sometimes.

I'm also waiting for mCooperative to update his vote like he said, so that I can reevaluate whether to vote for him or Kaizuki...
 
Added some courses of action to take if Homura's issue isn't what we expect, as well as some other minor cleanup:


[x] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
[x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] If further communication indicates that the above is not the cause of Homura's distress, attempt to get her to share what is. Don't continue to pursue the angle suggested below if it has been found to be irrelevant.
[x] Overall tone and subtext: Be comforting and encouraging. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
-[x] Encourage her to communicate what she's feeling, rather than use having to guess. Try to get her to engage and respond.
[x] Disambiguation: use of first person plural pronouns in the following is meant to indicate the entire team, not just Sabrina.
[x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. Everything we've done--it's been all of us.
[x] We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because he knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this.
[x] Ask:
-[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
-[x] To sit down.
-[x] To cleanse.
[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
-[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
-[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
-[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
-[x] Tracking down Oriko
-[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
-[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
-[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
-[x] We--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
[x] If Homura's issue isn't her wish but just a general feeling of inadequacy, remind her that Sabrina is cheating.
-[x] Sabrina started out already knowing a lot of the things that Homura had to spend several loops learning the hard way and got to cheat the system with her wish.
-[x] Remind Homura of her own awesomeness and the vital role she's played using some of the points listed above. Emphasize the value of teamwork.
-[x] IF AND ONLY IF it seems like it might be needed and Wish Rejection is a non-issue, broach the topic of Madoka's Wish.
--[x] Discuss some of the timeline changes that seem to have made it possible for things to be fixed when they otherwise couldn't.
--[x] If Madoka's Wish really did create Sabrina, then it created her to help Homura succeed, because Madoka wants Homura to get her happy ending, too.
[x] If Homura's issue isn't a sense of inadequacy at all, but a fear that something will go wrong after these early successes have raised her hopes, encourage her that we will succeed.
-[x] Remind her of all the extra advantages we have this time around, which can actually let us break the system for a change. Emphasize the power of teamwork.
-[x] IF AND ONLY IF it seems like it might be needed and Wish Rejection is a non-issue, broach the topic of Madoka's Wish, as above.




I can't really think of any reason beyond those three for Homura to have said what she said. Feelings of inadequacy, feelings of inadequacy plus wish rejection or fear for the future.
 
Something that Firn has brought up before in the thread, but I re-confirmed last night:

[4:31 PM] Sabrina: @Firnagzen When you're writing an update, you don't look just at the winning vote, right? You also look at competing votes where they're similar, and the discussion itself?
[4:35 PM] Firnagzen: I do, yeah.
[4:35 PM] Sabrina: So, as a completely off-the-wall example, if a vote was:
[×] Cook dinner with Mami
6 votes
[×] Play music for Mami
4 votes
[×] Cook dinner with Mami, while playing music
3 votes
And none of the discussion indicated people were voting to not cook dinner or play music, you would have Sabrina cook dinner with Mami, while playing music, right @Firnagzen?
[4:36 PM] Firnagzen: Yup.

Since it looks like we're all largely voting around the same theme and the issue is just a question of tone of approach, Firn is likely to grab from all the votes to get the idea we're trying to convey.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Apr 14, 2018 at 10:30 PM, finished with 136317 posts and 32 votes.
  • [x] Approach:
    -[x] Encourage Homura to believe in herself. Be positive.
    -[x] Respect Homura. Don't guess, respond. Provide explanations.
    -[x] Only bring up sensitive topics as prompted. Be delicate.
    [x] It doesn't work for "me", it works for "us". We're a team. Hugs/Cleansing as appropriate.
    -[x] Ask Homura to explain the issue. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate us. Not when she needs a friend.
    [x] Address, if/when it comes up:
    -[x] Homura feeling useless.
    --[x] Explain how despite Sabrina's advantages, Homura remains invaluable in protecting Madoka.
    ---[x] If safe/necessary, Madoka's Wish's help.
    -[x] Risks we're taking.
    --[x] Address specific concerns.
    --[x] We won't risk ultimate success.
    -[x] Homura's promise.
    --[x] You don't think Madoka was tricked, last loop. She Wished that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    [X] Caution regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts.
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I found a thing:

Firnagzen said:
Also, while I don't mind large votes, I think this is getting too large, folks. Cut it down.
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As said before, Firn seems to not mind large votes, but there's limits.

Checking the votes back then, the invisible line where vote lenght becomes silly even in Firn's mind is around the 450 words mark.

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Redshirt Army
No. of votes: 1
MrLZRS

[x] A few hours, maaybe the whole day if we do end up getting in touch with Tokyo, or if some crisis comes up. But probably, what, four or five hours? Look at Mami for confirmation.
-[x] The plan was just a quick visit to check up on people and cleanse some Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. You don't need to commit to it now, Sayaka. We don't need train tickets or anything, so feel free to wait on deciding.
[x] Shall we move this discussion to someplace more comfortable?
-[x] Use a Grief platform to fly everyone back to Mami's place. Offer to clean everyone's Soul Gems. Offer Sayaka her apology cupcake for waking her up.
[x] Ask Homura and Mami by telepathy if this is a good time to talk to Sayaka about Walpurgisnacht. Ask to form the privacy construct, then do so.
[x] There's a couple more things we need to talk about.
-[x] When multiple witches interact with each other, under rare circumstances, they can merge into a single, stronger witch. There's one such conglomerate that has persisted for hundreds of years, gathering strength all the while. It is known as Walpurgisnacht- the night of witches.
--[x] Indications are that it's going to arrive in Mitakihara by the end of the month.
---[x] Indicate for Mami to confirm all this.
[x] Homura knows more than I do, but the basics are that it's enormous - skyscraper sized - and manifests in the real world, not in a barrier.
-[x] Leave an opening for Homura to say as much or as little as she wants.
--[x] There's a very good chance it's going to level the entire city if unopposed: in the past, appearances of Walpurgisnacht were attributed to enormous storms, or volcanic eruptions - natural disasters of that magnitude.
[x] We're going to try to stop it. Defeat it, once and for all.
-[x] Homura's already hacked into the weather service to issue a hurricane warning and order an evacuation of the city before it hits, and we're going to ask almost every magical girl we know to fight alongside us.
-[x] We won't force Sayaka to risk her life - and with how powerful Walpurgisnacht is, even with the best plan, there's alwaysa risk - but if she's willing to help, then we'd welcome her to the team.
[x] If she asks why we didn't mention this earlier:
-[x] Grimace. With my unique power, and this amount of forewarning, we're in an unusually good position to put together a coalition against Walpurgisnacht. Pushing you and Madoka to contract was the last thing we wanted to do at that point.
[x] If Sayaka asks about the other thing: it's a bit unpleasant and not in the big enemy, will fight way, so it should probably wait until after the picnic...
No. of votes: 2
Redshirt Army, Nele

[X] Redshirt Army
[X]The Narrator
[X] A few hours, maybe the whole day if we do end up getting in touch with Tokyo, or if some crisis comes up. But probably, what, four or five hours? Look at Mami for confirmation.
-[X] The plan was just a quick visit to check up on people and cleanse some Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. You don't need to commit to it now, Sayaka. We don't need train tickets or anything, so feel free to wait on deciding.
[X] Shall we move this discussion to someplace more comfortable?
-[X] Use a Grief platform to fly everyone back to Mami's place. Offer to clean everyone's Soul Gems. Offer Sayaka her apology cupcake for waking her up.
[X] Ask Homura and Mami by telepathy if this is a good time to talk to Sayaka about Walpy-chan. Ask to form the privacy construct, then do so.
[X] There's a couple more things we need to talk about.
-[X] When multiple witches interact with each other, under rare circumstances, they can merge into a single, stronger witch. There's one such conglomerate that has persisted for hundreds of years, gathering strength all the while. It is known as Walpurgisnacht- the night of witches.
--[X] Indications are that it's going to arrive in Mitakihara by the end of the month.
---[X] Indicate for Mami to confirm all this.
[X] Homura knows more than I do, but the basics are that it's enormous - skyscraper sized - and manifests in the real world, not in a barrier.
-[X] Leave an opening for Homura to say as much or as little as she wants.
--[X] There's a very good chance it's going to level the entire city if unopposed: in the past, appearances of Walpy-chan were attributed to enormous storms, or volcanic eruptions - natural disasters of that magnitude.
[X] We're going to try to stop it. Defeat it, once and for all.
-[X] Homura's already hacked into the weather service to issue a hurricane warning and order an evacuation of the city before it hits, and we're going to ask almost every magical girl we know to fight alongside us.
-[X] We won't force Sayaka to risk her life - and with how powerful Walpy-chan is, even with the best plan, there's always a risk - but if she's willing to help, then we'd welcome her to the team.
[X] If she asks why we didn't mention this earlier:
-[X] Grimace. With my unique power, and this amount of forewarning, we're in an unusually good position to put together a coalition against Walpy-chan. Pushing you and Madoka to contract was the last thing we wanted to do at that point.
[X] If Sayaka asks about the other thing: it's a bit unpleasant and not in the big enemy, will fight way, so it should probably wait until after the picnic...
No. of votes: 2
Onmur, Script Mak3r

[X] A few hours, maybe the whole day if we do end up getting in touch with Tokyo, or if some crisis comes up. But probably, what, four or five hours? Look at Mami for confirmation.
-[X] The plan was just a quick visit to check up on people and cleanse some Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. You don't need to commit to it now, Sayaka. We don't need train tickets or anything, so feel free to wait on deciding.
[X] Shall we move this discussion to someplace more comfortable?
-[X] Use a Grief platform to fly everyone back to Mami's place. Offer to clean everyone's Soul Gems. Offer Sayaka her apology cupcake for waking her up.
[X] Ask Homura and Mami by telepathy if this is a good time to talk to Sayaka about Walpy-chan. Ask to form the privacy construct, then do so.
[X] There's a couple more things we need to talk about.
-[X] When multiple witches interact with each other, under rare circumstances, they can merge into a single, stronger witch. There's one such conglomerate that has persisted for hundreds of years, gathering strength all the while. It is known as Walpurgisnacht- the night of witches.
--[X] Indications are that it's going to arrive in Mitakihara by the end of the month.
---[X] Indicate for Mami to confirm all this.
[X] Homura knows more than I do, but the basics are that it's enormous - skyscraper sized - and manifests in the real world, not in a barrier.
-[X] Leave an opening for Homura to say as much or as little as she wants.
--[X] There's a very good chance it's going to level the entire city if unopposed: in the past, appearances of Walpy-chan were attributed to enormous storms, or volcanic eruptions - natural disasters of that magnitude.
[X] We're going to try to stop it. Defeat it, once and for all.
-[X] Homura's already hacked into the weather service to issue a hurricane warning and order an evacuation of the city before it hits, and we're going to ask almost every magical girl we know to fight alongside us.
-[X] We won't force Sayaka to risk her life - and with how powerful Walpy-chan is, even with the best plan, there's always a risk - but if she's willing to help, then we'd welcome her to the team.
[X] If she asks why we didn't mention this earlier:
-[X] Grimace. With my unique power, and this amount of forewarning, we're in an unusually good position to put together a coalition against Walpy-chan. Pushing you and Madoka to contract was the last thing we wanted to do at that point.
[X] If Sayaka asks about the other thing: it's a bit unpleasant and not in the big enemy, will fight way, so it should probably wait until after the picnic...
No. of votes: 1
AramilOniasha

[x] A few hours, maaybe the whole day if we do end up getting in touch with Tokyo, or if some crisis comes up. But probably, what, four or five hours? Look at Mami for confirmation.
-[x] The plan was just a quick visit to check up on people and cleanse some Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. You don't need to commit to it now, Sayaka. We don't need train tickets or anything, so feel free to wait on deciding.
[x] We've got maybe an hour left before we should break for lunch (and Walpy discussion) and cooking for the picnic; maybe a quick demo of things that Sabrina and Mami have been working on? Maybe another demo of our laser beam, and try scaling up the combo attack a little?
No. of votes: 2
banjo2E, TheEyes

[x] A few hours, maaybe the whole day if we do end up getting in touch with Tokyo, or if some crisis comes up. But probably, what, four or five hours? Look at Mami for confirmation.
-[x] The plan was just a quick visit to check up on people and cleanse some Soul Gems and Grief Seeds. You don't need to commit to it now, Sayaka. We don't need train tickets or anything, so feel free to wait on deciding.
[x] We've got maybe an hour left before we should break for lunch (and Walpy discussion) and cooking for the picnic; maybe a quick demo of things that Sabrina and Mami have been working on? Demonstrate out laser attack (at a lower power level) and explain to Homura and Sayaka why they should cover their eyes if they hear us yell Prima Luce! Keep working with Mami to refine the combination attack.
[x] Break for lunch and head back to Mami's place. Offer to clean everyone's Soul Gems. Offer Sayaka her apology cupcake for waking her up.
-[x] Ask Homura and Mami by telepathy if this is a good time to talk to Sayaka about Walpy. Ask to form the privacy construct, then do so.
[x] There's another thing that we need to talk about.
-[x] When multiple witches interact with each other, under rare circumstances, they can merge into a single, stronger witch. There's one such conglomerate that has persisted for hundreds of years, gathering strength all the while. It is known as Walpurgisnacht- the night of witches.
--[x] Indications are that it's going to arrive in Mitakihara at the end of the month.
---[x] Indicate for Mami to confirm all this.
[x] Homura knows more than I do, but the basics are that it's enormous - skyscraper sized - and manifests in the real world, not in a barrier. Some of its familiars are full-sized elephants, and others are dark mockeries of magical girls.
-[x] Leave an opening for Homura to say as much or as little as she wants.
--[x] There's a very good chance it's going to level the entire city if unopposed: in the past, appearances of Walpurgisnacht were attributed to enormous storms, or volcanic eruptions - natural disasters of that magnitude.
[x] We're going to try to stop it. Defeat it, once and for all.
-[x] Homura's already hacked into the weather service to issue a hurricane warning and order an evacuation of the city before it hits, and we're going to ask almost every magical girl we know to fight alongside us.
-[x] We won't force Sayaka to risk her life - and with how powerful Walpurgisnacht is, even with the best plan, there's alwaysa risk - but if she's willing to help, then we'd be glad to have her with us.
[x] If she asks why we didn't mention this earlier:
-[x] We didn't want to do anything that might push you into contracting. If I'd told you that there was a threat to the entire city coming, would you have even thought twice about signing up? We hoped that with the three of us plus the other magical girls we were planning to recruit, we would be able to win without you having to make that sacrifice.
No. of votes: 1
The Narrator
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Preliminary additions and modifications- will be subject to streamlining. Substantial additions highlighted, but not all marked yet as part of the vote; actual vote content remains largely unchanged from last edit, so people can give more feedback. Subject to suggestions and comments. No major modifications yet; I still need to do more to address the streamlining and contingency-ifiying of the Madowish section. With some of the additions to the conversational goal section, I expect to be able to trim down direction in some of the if-else blocks. Also, some of this is a bit more dialogue-pilot than it needs to be; a remnant of when I was working through my thoughts on an earlier draft. I'll need to fix some of that, let Firn handle it.

Still need to add some stuff from @HeroCycle .

This is what I plan to head toward, when I can make it flow better, and move toward a slightly lower wordcount, though I'll wait for @Firnagzen 's explicit word on policy there. Wordcount, I am definitely trying to work with, but a part of my concern is also about the nature of contingency voting as a strategy and whether it's permissible in and of itself, as I mentioned when I asked about it above.

Ah, the trials with basically agreeing with literally everyone, subject to only mild variation.

Well, on with the extreme detail!

(Yes, this has nearly doubled in size, though not the contents actually filled in as the vote. Yes, I plan to fix it, if given the chance. But for now- food.)

... heh. "This is not a tale of servants, nor is it a tale of masters, neither yet a tale of saints. This is a tale of people fulfilling their wishes."

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[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[] Disambiguation: use of first person plural pronouns in the following is meant to indicate the entire team, not just Sabrina. [I need to edit to make sure this is fully the case]

[x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka. Also deal with:
-[x] Homura not liking herself, feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before
--[] Homura feeling useless in this loop specifically, that we're doing better with the same tools.
-[x] The conflict between her promise to Madoka, and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
--[] Try to communicate have faith in the fact that Madoka has faith in Homura, and her Wish, which makes it now possible to succeed, was so that Homura could have the breathing room to fulfill her wish, while leaving room for Madoka, in this timeline, to feel like she's done something useful without actually being in harms way anymore

[] If further communication indicates that none of the above are the cause of Homura's distress, attempt to get her to share what is. Don't continue to pursue the angle suggested below if it has been found to be irrelevant.

[x] Overall tone and subtext: Be comforting and encouraging. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
-[] At the same time, address her points seriously. Do not brush off indications that she's feeling inadequate by deflecting into segues about her usefulness if that's not what she wants to talk about.
-[x] Encourage her to communicate what she's feeling, rather than use having to guess. Try to get her to engage and respond.

[x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. I've been handed so much. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
-[] We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because he knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this.
[X] Ask:
-[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
-[X] To sit down.
-[X] To cleanse.

[] If it's her feeling like she isn't the one to protect Madoka or her feeling inadequate, bring up that without her, none of this would be possible. Madoka would just be another dead magical girl, fallen before Walpurgisnacht. We wouldn't even exist. Thanks for that, by the way.
[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
-[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
-[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
-[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
--[x] Tracking down Oriko
--[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
--[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
--[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
-[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
-[] And we--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.

[x] If there's an indication that Homura's issue isn't her wish but just a general feeling of inadequacy, or that she is regarding the above as platitudes remind her that Sabrina is cheating:
[x] Tone: Quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing.
[x] I've been given so much.
-[x] Knowledge
--[] Possibly summarize this point with some variation of: Sabrina started out already knowing a lot of the things that Homura had to spend several loops learning the hard way and got to cheat the system with her wish.
--[x] Literally a guidebook.
---[x] Not just what people could do, who they could be, events, information. You've got that.
---[x] I was given narrative framing; the exact information that could change things; the certainty that it's the information that matters. And a decent suggestion on where to apply it. That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?
-[x] Power that specifically derails resource issues
--[x] The single greatest tool that Homura hadn't been able to leverage before.
-[x] Tone: Gentle levity, sincerity: And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura.
--[x] Tone: More serious: Don't sell yourself short. I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.
--[] Possibly summarize this point with some variation of: Remind Homura of her own awesomeness and the vital role she's played using some of the points listed above. Emphasize the value of teamwork.

[x] IF, AND ONLY IF, it seems Homura is considering how Madoka's wish has played into all this, and thus we need to address the issue, AND Wish Rejection is a non-issue, broach the topic of Madoka's Wish:
-[x] But there's more than just good luck and good folks, we both suspect, huh?
-[x] I'm just going to say it- we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here.
--[x] Tone: Gently: It's pretty likely I'm a result of Madoka's wish last loop. Specially equipped to work on the fixing of everything.
--[x] But... I don't think it's just me. And I have some thoughts about that, if you want me to try and explain them.

[x] If we're given no reason to avoid this line of conversation:
-[x] If you doesn't want to say anything, that's fine. But please- if you want me to start somewhere else, elaborate, go back to a point- anything...
-[X] Do our best to answer anything she wants to know, explain everything, to the best of our ability. She needs that.
--[X] Discuss some of the timeline changes that seem to have made it possible for things to be fixed when they otherwise couldn't; too blatant to be coincidence.
---[x] E.g. Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly. The timings of events; Nagisa. Echoes of could-have-been-timelines; Sayaka's behaviour. Etc.
--[X] Madoka's Wish is helping by more than just adding Sabrina
---[] If Madoka's Wish really did create Sabrina, then it created her to help Homura succeed, because Madoka wants Homura to get her happy ending, too.
---[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
----[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
---[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
---[x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
----[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
----[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.

[] If she is bothered by the fact that this all might only be working because of Madoka's wish, Homura having 'failed her promise to Madoka':
-[] Remind her that Madoka only asked her to not let her get tricked by Kyubey, not to not let her make a wish.
--[] Homura successfully protected Madoka from getting tricked: Madoka understood the consequences of what she was doing. It was really Kyubey who got tricked: because Madoka's wish is helping us, but thanks to Homura, she isn't a magical girl.

[] If Homura's issue isn't a sense of inadequacy at all, but a fearthat all of this will be ripped away from her and she'll have to go back to the loops after these early successes have raised her hopes: Encourage her that we will succeed.
-[] Remind her of all the extra advantages we have this time around, which can actually let us break the system for a change. Emphasize the power of teamwork.
--[] Do not forget to remain consistent with the points brought up above: We have all these advantages, and some are Sabrina's, but most are for Homura, and they are to give her the space to fulfill her wish.
--[] If she remains worried about this, say that while we are confident of victory, we could give her supplies like a considerable supply of Clear Seeds just in case.

[x] If there's an indication none of the above are actually answering Homura's unspoken question:
-[x] Ask Homura to talk to us. Ask her to tell us what we're not getting. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate us. Not when she needs a friend.
 
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I feel like we should be cutting extraneous verbiage out of the vote and streamlining it.

mCooperative said:
---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work
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This line doesn't seem to serve any purpose.

mCooperative said:
---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
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I still don't think that's something that's going to make Homura feel better.
 
Furiously re-calculating!!


[X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
-[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
[X] Caution regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts.

If what we are aiming at is true, the best way to respond is to re-frame the prospect of a Madowish helping her in the emotional conext that is positive. As it most surely is. First, promise her the truth in any measure we have, right now if she wants. We must stand on this. But we must be slow and gentle as we do it. Homura is already proven to adapt and survive under the worst conditions, but we need to give her a moment to catch up. It doesn't work at our speeds, and she's already hurt. Homura has a variety of stressors, so she's having a hard time identifying which emergency she's responding to anymore. Homura is drowning. So my main priority is to vastly slow down the dialog pace IC, and get her to swim to the surface. Second, get her to acknowledge that she's having difficulty functioning, due to injury. Then, get her to stop trying to measure her performance, or her worth. Not the time for that. I think this set of discussions will help her out.


Is Sabrina hearing a bit that Homura would be happier if she felt like the only hero? Madoka's wish from last loop is a form of conversation between Homura and her. Madoka wants to be the hero too. The relationship is developing.

We all agree that Madoka must not give up her humanity. Grant her wish that she asked for, right now?

That way, she can't make a bad wish. Use your hands, use my hands, just give the girl you love the thing she so desparately wants. That is "to fix everything." It's a much, much bigger task than your Wish. Don't be afraid to spiral in towards her, you pointed your wish at her, now she is putting her wish around you. A few details will work themselves out, like Sabrina joining you all from... wherever it was she existed three weeks ago. It's a step up for Sabrina, it has to be, Madoka is a kind person. Sabrina has to be here, to give you more power, to grant both wishes.

Focus on the fact that Homura (active partner) and Madoka (passive partner) are in a long climb to escape the system. After improving as a pair for this long, the solution has been found. The way Homura wins, is by capitalizing on all that she has done, and by letting her partner help her. Since Madoka must not over- wish again, she made Sabrina to do that for her.

Homura is only one person. Her time is finite. Sabrina is only one person, her time is much more finite. (Timestop is such bullshit.) The Incubators will be pushed back if we dare to use our emotions to connect everyone. People work together. Friends work together. You work together with the one you love.

I think a short error trap function added to this approach is the best way to enter The Serious Talk.

HeroCycle said:
Here's my W.I.P., if you wish to criticize. Must do other things ATM, so use some if you like. My option is "Madowish Togetherness."

Homura can adapt, if we get her over the worst of it. She has that personality.

[X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
-[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.

Sabrina will answer as much as she knows, but Sabrina doesn't know everything. Homura gets results. Sabrina gets results. Ours are mostly cheating. Cheating won't solve everything, determination does.

Everything works, because this is how Homura made it to be. This world is the sum of her labors, somehow. Homura wished to be the one to protect Madoka this time. She is, and she has been. It feels different than that for two reasons.

POINT Kyuubey cheats. He lets you take your powers, but without any training. The thing you want to do is "fight an alien occupation." Alone. Is it surprising that you needed to practice? It sent Homura in without any offensive weapon at all.

POINT Does she know why she feels so much pain right now? It is an injury to her emotions. It is called PTSD, and she got it because aliens made her into a soldier at the age of thirten.
Think of PTSD like it is Grief. You have trouble thinking when it hurts. We need to talk slowly, so Homura has time to think.

How does your loop work? Your wish sends you back in time to re-do your first meeting by yourself?
WRONG. You Wished for her to meet you. You bent the world to do it, and it is working. You go back, with accumulated memories and items. Everyone else changes a bit sometimes. Except you, who are different every time, and Madoka, who is always herself. Madoka goes back in time too, unconscious and in sync.

You two are connected. It's Yin and Yang. Is this O.K. with you? It seems like you wanted that to happen? The only complication is The System.

The reason everything is working now isn't Sabrina, nor Madoka. It is that you didn't give up, and became more powerful than the Incubators. Not 'her' alone, both of you. Over the ten years that you two have been looping, things have been getting better. You have accumulated skills and knowledge, mental strength and education. Invisibly, Madoka is growing as well. Her Wish changes, you can see that. You two have to work together, it is your Wish. You did keep her from being tricked. Her Wish now includes a way for you to be together at last. When you both accept one another, this all happens. Sabrina happens. We have much work yet to finish, but is that anything to complain about?

Sabrina is not a leader, she's put out in front where you want her. Sabrina is not even a useful shield. Sabrina has been attracting attention - she is your diversion. Because there is something Sabrina doesn't do well. Protect Madoka. What is Sabrina? A literal battery for Magical Girls. Sabrina needs saving all the time, she's just a big rookie. She takes big risks, where the protector can't. Sabrina trips traps. Sabrina breaks up the indirect attacks. Sabrina hugs strangers. You have stopped Kyuubey directly. Your wish requires freedom of action. Without a team, you could never fully block Kyuubey. With Mami, Sabrina, now Sayaka, and everyone, you maybe have a chance.

The only thing Madoka changed this time was to wish away the unfair advantage the Incubators have. Her style is, of course, to try and give that help to everyone. She's cheering us all on. In case you didn't see that beautiful girl attached to my side over on the couch, my special nature obviously isn't to have a meeting with Madoka. That's all you. Sabrina is just along to help.
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The Narrator said:
I feel like we should be cutting extraneous verbiage out of the vote and streamlining it.


This line doesn't seem to serve any purpose.


I still don't think that's something that's going to make Homura feel better.
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Those are some of the things that I plan to address, yes. I just wanted to get the plan for my direction down while I was heading out for a bit, so if people had objections to said direction, those could be brought. There's definitely a lot of extraneous and redundant stuff that can and will be pulled- and I think I may have some thoughts about how to resolve the concerns about the Madowish section.

Again, pending.
 
With the fear of making any vote longer I gotta ask, are we sure that Homura's main problem isn't the surface problem of "of course I know this all as perfect as it can ever be; what, then, is the need to risk it??? wtf is your problem!?!?!?"

edit: and maybe thinking like that is making her feel guilty? and think that that's why it neverworkedfor her? becauseshe isn't as good person as Sabrina?

(or maybe that's not it)
 
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