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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
Did you just vote for literally everything.

:o
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Yes.

And then some, because I snuck in some of my thoughts as well. }=o)

But yeah, no, see, it seems like we all mostly agree, with a few divergences, and it's mostly a matter of the best way to head into the conversation. I tried to reflect this. With mixed results?
 
[x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
-[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
-[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
-[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
 
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Firnagzen said:
So I haven't caught up on the thread yet -busy couple of days- but just for the record, feel free to go over the wordcount limit. It's there as a guideline because the votes turned into what were basically update dictations, but it's not a reason to dismiss a vote for being too long. If something needs more words to specify the meaning fully, then use them.
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I am cheerfully certain that my vote as it stands is probably not what Firn was thinking when he wrote this post.
 
Always Happening said:
It also gives me the gut feeling of some sort of advanced ironic shitposting. I literally cannot even bring myself to attempt to scale that Great Wall of Text.
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If it weren't so time consuming, I was seriously debating taking the whole thing and turning it into sonnets. That would have been advanced ironic shitposting. As it is, I am mostly serious. But then again, the most advanced ironic shitposting does tend to loop back around to sincerity.
 
I fixed it!
No but actually, an attempt has been made to try and cut this down to at least a somewhat more reasonable size, and level of coherency and fitting-together-ness. Mooostly the coherency part, because a four-vote-pileup really can't be condensed much further without losing content, and I have other things I need to do tonight. If the vote is still open tomorrow afternoon, I may actually attempt to continue working on this mess, 'nless someone's done the same thing better by then. Otherwise, well, this isn't actually much shorter than before, but I hope it's a little better organized. **shrug**
Again, not suggesting dialogue-pilot unless something's in quotes, and not trying to update-pilot. This is merely a truly extensive set of if-statements and clarifications. Also mostly being collated for my own satisfaction unless someone else really thinks this is a good plan too. In which case, uh. Huh. Cool I guess?

Edit: Highlighted where I've added (not just rephrased) points in the midst of the stapled-together votes. I didn't just copy paste, there are a few things that weren't being stated specifically that I felt it might be good to bring up. Still need to actually do content edits later this afternoon if the vote is still up and this is still in the running.


[x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future, by telling her to have faith in Madoka, who has faith in her, and whose Wish makes it now possible to succeed. Also deal with:
-[x] The conflict between her promise to Madoka, and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
-[x] Homura not liking herself, feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before.

[x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.

[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. I've been handed so much. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
[X] Ask:
-[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
-[X] To sit down.
-[X] To cleanse.

[x] Tone: Quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing.
[x] I've been given so much.
-[x] Knowledge
--[x] Literally a guidebook.
---[x] Not just what people could do, who they could be, events, information. You've got that.
---[x] I was given narrative framing; the exact information that could change things; the certainty that it's the information that matters. And a decent suggestion on where to apply it. That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?
-[x] Power that specifically derails resource issues
--[x] The single greatest tool that Homura hadn't been able to leverage before.
-[x] Tone: Gentle levity, sincerity: And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura.
--[x] Tone: More serious: Don't sell yourself short. I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.
--[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
---[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
---[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
----[x] Tracking down Oriko
----[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
--[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
--[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.

[x] If there's an indication during any of the above that this is not actually answering Homura's unspoken question, or if we get through the above and it looks like the conversation still has steam to keep going:
-[x] But there's more than that, we both suspect, huh?
-[x] I'm just going to say it- we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here.
--[x] Tone: Gently: It's pretty likely I'm a result of Madoka's wish last loop. Specially equipped to work on the fixing of everything.
--[x] But... I don't think it's just me. And I have some thoughts about that, if you want me to try and explain them.

[x] If we're given no reason to avoid this line of conversation:
-[x] If you doesn't want to say anything, that's fine. But please- if you want me to start somewhere else, elaborate, go back to a point- anything...
-[X] Do our best to answer anything she wants to know, explain everything, to the best of our ability. She needs that.
--[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
--[X] Lay out all your evidence. The timings of events; Nagisa. Echoes of could-have-been-timelines; Sayaka's behaviour. Etc.
--[X] Madoka's Wish is helping by more than just adding Sabrina
---[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
----[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
---[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
---[x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
----[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
----[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
 
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[x] mCooperative

Did your frankenvote include TheNarrators thoughts on detailing how specifically Homura is necessary (if not sufficient) to all our successes? It seemed like it did, but its hard to tell when it also includes so much of the "praise Madoka for doing it, but we can't tell you the potentialbomb that lets you take credit again" I think Narrator wanted to avoid.

Anyways, I like this! Some quests give a lot of discretion to the author and the character's autopilot by having voters pick what scene to move to, or broad ideas of what goals to aim at. This one though, theres no timeskips, no broad picks. We stop multiple times in a conversation to adjust responses and the only reason the votes are less detailed than Marked for Death is that we aren't packing multiple days into each vote with the same narrow-focus we use here.

Seeing how the Sayaka/Homu talk went, and going back to the Oriko talk, it doesn't really seem like broad "Tone" and "Goals" is enough, we need specific solutions planned. (And while we need to treat them like characters with their own reactions... that is the same as treating them like an audience with defined response parameters to program around. Humans are still describable in computer terms, its just theres such a chaotic Xanatos-Pileup of interwoven and conflicting variables that it takes an omniscient level of analysis to be aware of and track them all. So human communication tries it anyways and ends up messy, or it goes on gut heuristics informed by the same experience and patterns that might've been put in a more formal "manipulation" to the same end with more offloaded to the black box of our minds.).

Vebyast's vote looks like writing a long speech on one possible conversation path/ issue premise and risks trouble if the premise is wrong , Kaizuki's attempts to gather more data and is only using Vebyasts route if we find its right (but even with implication of continuing under that one condition, it feels too passive to follow a micro-update giving info and stopping), mCooperative seems to follow Kaizuki's general mindset of checking assumptions by building as many If-Then conditionals as it can with Vebyasts being one and Onmur and Narrator being another etc.

Basically seems like either we need a rapid update speed of micro updates after each short "goal and tone, attempt" vote (weren't the first few or dozen updates zoomed out in the same RL day or two? Up to moving in with Mami felt that way on first read), oorr we need a detailed set like mCooperative that can functionally combine multiple of these "micro then act on results" into one package in advance (which feels like Kaizuki's goal?) , or the quest needs to better allow "aim the 'Brina and fire, no course correction" where we decide to have the O&K parole converstaion and the enchant practice and such and the Sabrina-AI we've thus far programmed does the rest instead of us.
 
Racoras said:
Did your frankenvote include TheNarrators thoughts on detailing how specifically Homura is necessary (if not sufficient) to all our successes? It seemed like it did, but its hard to tell when it also includes so much of the "praise Madoka for doing it, but we can't tell you the potentialbomb that lets you take credit again" I think Narrator wanted to avoid.
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It did indeed. I tried to make it a bit more consistent with the surrounding vote, though, because it looks more and more like we'll be going into the wish thing one way or another, so we're working around the potential bits as best we can. I feel like all this can at least pretend to coexist neatly, ne? Well, it is what it is.
 
[Q] Get cold feet.
-[Q] Ask Homu if you can use timestop time to do some magic.
--[Q] Griefix Kuroki's phone and check it.
---[Q] ...
----[Q] Ask Homu to end timestop. You need mumihugs.
 
Racoras said:
Basically seems like either we need a rapid update speed of micro updates after each short "goal and tone, attempt" vote (weren't the first few or dozen updates zoomed out in the same RL day or two?
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What I would like is this. I would like to walk through this conversation in a series of small updates instead of returning to sendai-style voting, as Onmur calls it, which has a tendency to explode in our faces and just behave terribly. I have proven unable to hold a bandwagon to that effect, however.
 
Kaizuki said:
What I would like is this. I would like to walk through this conversation in a series of small updates instead of returning to sendai-style voting, as Onmur calls it, which has a tendency to explode in our faces and just behave terribly. I have proven unable to hold a bandwagon to that effect, however.
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... because thinking in terms of "bandwagon" has always been... sub optimal. I think gaining a better grasp of our neighbors is the path to cooperation at high performance. Unless y'all are just here to throw a few punches.

Now caught up with thread.

What we need to consider is organizing ourselves around our end-goals. Most of us read at cross-purpose when the other poster gets deep into it.

Start at the top, and one step from general to specific at a time. Then, when there are two people who actually don't want the same thing, they will begin with that understanding. Sometimes the difference in goals are very slight. But good taxonomy will make them distinct.

So, don't argue over implementation first. Separate our camps based on the detailed outline of the goal state. Sometimes, we implement without truly understanding our own results?


Will make a concise vote shortly.
 
I'd been crafting my own vote for a while, but honestly the discussion scares me too much to actually vote it. I'll put it here in case anyone wants to grab anything from it though.

[] : Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
[] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[] And to sit down.
-[] Cleanse.
[] Ask Homura to talk to you. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate you. Not when she needs a friend.
-[] If it's her feeling like she isn't the one to protect Madoka or her feeling inadequate, bring up that without her, none of this would be possible. Madoka would just be another dead magical girl, fallen before Walpurgisnacht. We wouldn't even exist. Thanks for that, by the way.
--[] Remind Homura of her contributions that made it possible for us to get this far. Oriko, Sayaka
---[] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
---[] Keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
---[] Tracking down Oriko in timestop.
---[] Letting us get to Sayaka in time to save her from the witch.
---[] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
---[] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
---[] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
-[] If she is bothered by the fact that this all might only be working because of Madoka's wish, Homura having 'failed her promise to Madoka':
--[] Remind her that Madoka only asked her to not let her get tricked by Kyubey, not to not let her make a wish.
---[] Homura successfully protected Madoka from getting tricked: Madoka understood the consequences of what she was doing. It was really Kyubey who got tricked: because Madoka's wish is helping us, but thanks to Homura, she isn't a magical girl.
-[] If Oriko is a concern:
--[] We understand Oriko's mindset and motivations, and don't believe she will hurt Madoka. She is also far weaker and far more stable than in that other timeline.
---[] She has also been a magical girl in some other timelines, but never targeted Madoka in those.
-[] If she's afraid that all of this will be ripped away from her and she'll have to go back to the loops:
--[] Show confidence in our victory. We believe we(everyone) are going to win this.
---[] If she remains worried about this, say that while we are confident of victory, we could give her supplies like a considerable supply of Clear Seeds just in case.
-[] If something else, vote break.
 
Vebyast said:
Homura Wished that she could be the one to protect Madoka. If Madoka's Wish is what's doing all the work, then Homura has failed to complete her Wish.
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If you understand that, then why does your vote try to give credit for all our successes to Madoka's Wish? Won't that still make Homura feel she was useless and exacerbate the problem?



Godwinson said:
[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
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I don't think that saying this is going to make Homura feel better. It's basically guilt-tripping her by putting the blame for Madoka's fate on her.

Godwinson said:
[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
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Again, this isn't going to make Homura feel better. Her wish was to save Madoka, not to be saved by her. Being saved by her was how this all started.

I don't get why you guys think that telling Homura that it's all the will of Madokami is going to help. It's not giving Homura a greater sense of agency, it's actively taking her remaining sense of agency away.
 
It's occurred to me that there's a metatextual aspect to our current conundrum: Sabrina, the self-insert original character, has been stealing the agency of the canon protagonist, as often happens in fanfic. Except that this is PMMM, so a girl losing her agency is actually quite dangerous.

@mCooperative I'll jump to your vote if I have to, because I find it preferable to either of the alternatives, but I have major concerns regarding all the mentions of Madoka's Wish that it inherited from Vebyast's vote. I think that crediting the Wish with all our successes will do nothing to improve Homura's feelings of self-worth, and possibly make things even worse.
 
The Narrator said:
It's occurred to me that there's a metatextual aspect to our current conundrum: Sabrina, the self-insert original character, has been stealing the agency of the canon protagonist, as often happens in fanfic. Except that this is PMMM, so a girl losing her agency is actually quite dangerous.

@mCooperative I'll jump to your vote if I have to, because I find it preferable to either of the alternatives, but I have major concerns regarding all the mentions of Madoka's Wish that it inherited from Vebyast's vote. I think that crediting the Wish with all our successes will do nothing to improve Homura's feelings of self-worth, and possibly make things even worse.
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That's a fair point, and one I hope to address with some of my line edits later today. I feel hopeful that some rephrasing of exactly when and where the Vebyast Inheritance is used will remain consistent with the both of you, and be less likely to trip the flag you're worried about if we're reading this wrong. I also was planning to add some clauses from the second half of @LadyLynn's vote, because I rather like them, and if I'm making a frankenvote if-else from hell, I might as well do it right. Unfortunately I have a few due dates between now and when I can work on this again, so I'll try to get back to this as soon as possible, but, well, classwork. Hopefully @Firnagzen sees that this is a contentious issue and gives us the time.
 
I think Kaizuki is on to something, and Homura needs someone to listen while she vents, but that the counter argument is correct in that Homura is not likely to continue unprompted.

So we should prompt her!

Some pages back some poster had started a vote with, 'encouraging Homura to open up' and "Tell Homura you won't hate her or judge her for anything she says."

Which is good, but I still think we should point out how much Homura has helped us suceed in this loop.
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Apr 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM, finished with 277 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future, by telling her to have faith in Madoka, who has faith in her, and whose Wish makes it now possible to succeed. Also deal with:
    -[x] The conflict between her promise to Madoka, and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself, feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. I've been handed so much. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
    [X] Ask:
    -[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
    -[X] To sit down.
    -[X] To cleanse.
    [x] Tone: Quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing.
    [x] I've been given so much.
    -[x] Knowledge
    --[x] Literally a guidebook.
    ---[x] Not just what people could do, who they could be, events, information. You've got that.
    ---[x] I was given narrative framing; the exact information that could change things; the certainty that it's the information that matters. And a decent suggestion on where to apply it. That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?
    -[x] Power that specifically derails resource issues
    --[x] The single greatest tool that Homura hadn't been able to leverage before.
    -[x] Tone: Gentle levity, sincerity: And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura.
    --[x] Tone: More serious: Don't sell yourself short. I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.
    --[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
    ---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    ---[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
    ---[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    ----[x] Tracking down Oriko
    ----[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    ---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    ---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    --[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    --[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're -just here to help her.
    [x] If there's an indication during any of the above that this is not actually answering Homura's unspoken question, or if we get through the above and it looks like the conversation still has steam to keep going:
    -[x] But there's more than that, we both suspect, huh?
    -[x] I'm just going to say it- we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here.
    --[x] Tone: Gently: It's pretty likely I'm a result of Madoka's wish last loop. Specially equipped to work on the fixing of everything.
    --[x] But... I don't think it's just me. And I have some thoughts about that, if you want me to try and explain them.
    [x] If we're given no reason to avoid this line of conversation:
    -[x] If you doesn't want to say anything, that's fine. But please- if you want me to start somewhere else, elaborate, go back to a point- anything...
    -[X] Do our best to answer anything she wants to know, explain everything, to the best of our ability. She needs that.
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    --[X] Lay out all your evidence. The timings of events; Nagisa. Echoes of could-have-been-timelines; Sayaka's behaviour. Etc.
    --[X] Madoka's Wish is helping by more than just adding Sabrina
    ---[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    ----[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    ---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    ---[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    ---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    ---[x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    ----[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    ----[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    -[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
    -[X] Relax. Comment:
    --[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
    --[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
    [X] O&K.
    -[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
    -[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
    [X] Everyone.
    -[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
    -[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
    [X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
    [X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
    -[X] Try using Control Magic...
    --[X] On Grief.
    --[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [x] (If in the course of the conversation, bolstering Homura's sense of self-worth doesn't seem to be the issue at hand after all, break to voting.)
    [x] (In the following, the use of first-person plural does not refer to Sabrina as usual, but to Sabrina and Homura and everyone as a group.)
    [x] It's working for us. We did this together.
    [x] Emphasize that we've accomplished as much as we have by being a team.
    [x] Remind Homura of her contributions that made it possible for us to get this far.
    -[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    -[x] Keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    -[x] Tracking down Oriko in timestop.
    -[x] Letting us get to Sayaka in time to save her from the witch.
    -[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    -[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    [x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    [x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
    [x] Provide much comfort and reassurance.
    [X] Null
    [x] Wait to see if Homura has more to say.
    -[x] If she doesn't, Vebyast's vote.
    [x] Hold a serious conversation with Homura about the issues she expressed in the last post, doing everything you can to keep her actively involved in it. Aim to allay any fears she may have, explain as best you can anything she doesn't understand, and generally just help the poor girl not end up feeling like she's trash. Don't drop the potentialbomb.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Apr 13, 2018 at 9:35 AM, finished with 277 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future, by telling her to have faith in Madoka, who has faith in her, and whose Wish makes it now possible to succeed. Also deal with:
    -[x] The conflict between her promise to Madoka, and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself, feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext: Push her to engage with this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen. Where possible, address all points such that we try and at least get an acknowledgement of each of them. Preferably actual conversation so we have a bit more to respond to than how we've been having to divine Homura's mental state from a truly impressive amount of subtext.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. I've been handed so much. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
    [X] Ask:
    -[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
    -[X] To sit down.
    -[X] To cleanse.
    [x] Tone: Quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing.
    [x] I've been given so much.
    -[x] Knowledge
    --[x] Literally a guidebook.
    ---[x] Not just what people could do, who they could be, events, information. You've got that.
    ---[x] I was given narrative framing; the exact information that could change things; the certainty that it's the information that matters. And a decent suggestion on where to apply it. That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?
    -[x] Power that specifically derails resource issues
    --[x] The single greatest tool that Homura hadn't been able to leverage before.
    -[x] Tone: Gentle levity, sincerity: And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura.
    --[x] Tone: More serious: Don't sell yourself short. I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.
    --[x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
    ---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    ---[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
    ---[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    ----[x] Tracking down Oriko
    ----[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    ---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    ---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    --[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    --[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're -just here to help her.
    [x] If there's an indication during any of the above that this is not actually answering Homura's unspoken question, or if we get through the above and it looks like the conversation still has steam to keep going:
    -[x] But there's more than that, we both suspect, huh?
    -[x] I'm just going to say it- we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here.
    --[x] Tone: Gently: It's pretty likely I'm a result of Madoka's wish last loop. Specially equipped to work on the fixing of everything.
    --[x] But... I don't think it's just me. And I have some thoughts about that, if you want me to try and explain them.
    [x] If we're given no reason to avoid this line of conversation:
    -[x] If you doesn't want to say anything, that's fine. But please- if you want me to start somewhere else, elaborate, go back to a point- anything...
    -[X] Do our best to answer anything she wants to know, explain everything, to the best of our ability. She needs that.
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    --[X] Lay out all your evidence. The timings of events; Nagisa. Echoes of could-have-been-timelines; Sayaka's behaviour. Etc.
    --[X] Madoka's Wish is helping by more than just adding Sabrina
    ---[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    ----[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    ---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    ---[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    ---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    ---[x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    ----[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    ----[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    -[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
    -[X] Relax. Comment:
    --[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
    --[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
    [X] O&K.
    -[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
    -[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
    [X] Everyone.
    -[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
    -[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
    [X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
    [X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
    -[X] Try using Control Magic...
    --[X] On Grief.
    --[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [x] (If in the course of the conversation, bolstering Homura's sense of self-worth doesn't seem to be the issue at hand after all, break to voting.)
    [x] (In the following, the use of first-person plural does not refer to Sabrina as usual, but to Sabrina and Homura and everyone as a group.)
    [x] It's working for us. We did this together.
    [x] Emphasize that we've accomplished as much as we have by being a team.
    [x] Remind Homura of her contributions that made it possible for us to get this far.
    -[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    -[x] Keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    -[x] Tracking down Oriko in timestop.
    -[x] Letting us get to Sayaka in time to save her from the witch.
    -[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    -[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    [x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    [x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
    [x] Provide much comfort and reassurance.
    [X] Null
    [x] Wait to see if Homura has more to say.
    -[x] If she doesn't, Vebyast's vote.
    [x] Hold a serious conversation with Homura about the issues she expressed in the last post, doing everything you can to keep her actively involved in it. Aim to allay any fears she may have, explain as best you can anything she doesn't understand, and generally just help the poor girl not end up feeling like she's trash. Don't drop the potentialbomb.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Apr 14, 2018 at 5:12 PM, finished with 136302 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka. Also deal with:
    -[x] Homura not liking herself, feeling that she specifically is why the loops have failed before.
    -[x] The conflict between her promise to Madoka, and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext: Be comforting and encouraging. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
    -[x] Encourage her to communicate what she's feeling, rather than use having to guess. Try to get her to engage and respond.
    [x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. I've been handed so much. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
    [X] Ask:
    -[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
    -[X] To sit down.
    -[X] To cleanse.
    [x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
    -[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    -[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
    -[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    --[x] Tracking down Oriko
    --[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    --[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    ---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
    --[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    -[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    [x] If there's an indication that Homura's issue isn't her wish but just a general feeling of inadequacy, or that she is regarding the above as platitudes remind her that Sabrina is cheating:
    [x] Tone: Quiet, gentle, explaining, reflecting, not lecturing.
    [x] I've been given so much.
    -[x] Knowledge
    --[x] Literally a guidebook.
    ---[x] Not just what people could do, who they could be, events, information. You've got that.
    ---[x] I was given narrative framing; the exact information that could change things; the certainty that it's the information that matters. And a decent suggestion on where to apply it. That's something you've had to figure out on your own, yeah?
    -[x] Power that specifically derails resource issues
    --[x] The single greatest tool that Homura hadn't been able to leverage before.
    -[x] Tone: Gentle levity, sincerity: And I have you. I get to start with all this information, plus an Akemi Homura.
    --[x] Tone: More serious: Don't sell yourself short. I've said it before, but I stand on the shoulders of giants.
    [x] IF, AND ONLY IF, it seems Homura is considering how Madoka's wish has played into all this, and thus we need to address the issue, AND Wish Rejection is a non-issue, broach the topic of Madoka's Wish:
    -[x] But there's more than just good luck and good folks, we both suspect, huh?
    -[x] I'm just going to say it- we've both got a pretty good idea where I come from. Why I'm here.
    --[x] Tone: Gently: It's pretty likely I'm a result of Madoka's wish last loop. Specially equipped to work on the fixing of everything.
    --[x] But... I don't think it's just me. And I have some thoughts about that, if you want me to try and explain them.
    [x] If we're given no reason to avoid this line of conversation:
    -[x] If you doesn't want to say anything, that's fine. But please- if you want me to start somewhere else, elaborate, go back to a point- anything...
    -[X] Do our best to answer anything she wants to know, explain everything, to the best of our ability. She needs that.
    --[X] Discuss some of the timeline changes that seem to have made it possible for things to be fixed when they otherwise couldn't; too blatant to be coincidence.
    ---[x] E.g. Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly. The timings of events; Nagisa. Echoes of could-have-been-timelines; Sayaka's behaviour. Etc.
    --[X] Madoka's Wish is helping by more than just adding Sabrina
    ---[x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    ----[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    ---[x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    ---[x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    ---[x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    ---[x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    ----[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    ----[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [x] If there's an indication none of the above are actually answering Homura's unspoken question:
    -[x] Ask Homura to talk to us. Ask her to tell us what we're not getting. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate us. Not when she needs a friend.
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    [X] Caution regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts.
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [X] Null
    [x] Wait to see if Homura has more to say.
    -[x] If she doesn't, Vebyast's vote.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself, and a good future. Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
    -[x] If further communication indicates that the above is not the cause of Homura's distress, attempt to get her to share what is. Don't continue to pursue the angle suggested below if it has been found to be irrelevant.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext: Be comforting and encouraging. Don't make Homura feel like a sidekick. Make her feel like The Hero in a Five Man Band.
    -[x] Encourage her to communicate what she's feeling, rather than use having to guess. Try to get her to engage and respond.
    [x] Disambiguation: use of first person plural pronouns in the following is meant to indicate the entire team, not just Sabrina.
    [x] It wasn't just me, though. It's never been just me. Everything we've done- it's been all of us.
    [x] We're succeeding as a team. Kyubey tries to keep magical girls at each other's throats because he knows that no one can make it alone. Only together can we do this.
    [X] Ask:
    -[x] For temporary full hugging privileges. If given, hug as necessary.
    -[X] To sit down.
    -[X] To cleanse.
    [x] Remind Homura: her contributions let us get this far.
    -[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    -[x] Holding down the fort while we rush off to deal with out-of-town crises
    -[x] All the times timestop was an epic force multiplier or let us get there in the nick of time.
    -[x] Tracking down Oriko
    -[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    -[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    -[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    [x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    [x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that we're just here to help her.
    -[x] We--the people around this table--are her friends and we care about her and Madoka and we will do whatever it takes to help them find their happy ending.
    [x] If Homura's issue isn't her wish but just a general feeling of inadequacy, remind her that Sabrina is cheating.
    -[x] Sabrina started out already knowing a lot of the things that Homura had to spend several loops learning the hard way and got to cheat the system with her wish.
    -[x] Remind Homura of her own awesomeness and the vital role she's played using some of the points listed above. Emphasize the value of teamwork.
    -[x] IF AND ONLY IF it seems like it might be needed and Wish Rejection is a non-issue, broach the topic of Madoka's Wish.
    --[x] Discuss some of the timeline changes that seem to have made it possible for things to be fixed when they otherwise couldn't.
    --[x] If Madoka's Wish really did create Sabrina, then it created her to help Homura succeed, because Madoka wants Homura to get her happy ending, too.
    [x] If Homura's issue isn't a sense of inadequacy at all, but a fear that something will go wrong after these early successes have raised her hopes, encourage her that we will succeed.
    -[x] Remind her of all the extra advantages we have this time around, which can actually let us break the system for a change. Emphasize the power of teamwork.
    -[x] IF AND ONLY IF it seems like it might be needed and Wish Rejection is a non-issue, broach the topic of Madoka's Wish, as above.
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Matou Sutegobana said:
I think Kaizuki is on to something, and Homura needs someone to listen while she vents, but that the counter argument is correct in that Homura is not likely to continue unprompted.

So we should prompt her!

Some pages back some poster had started a vote with, 'encouraging Homura to open up' and "Tell Homura you won't hate her or judge her for anything she says."

Which is good, but I still think we should point out how much Homura has helped us suceed in this loop.
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Noted for addition to frankenvote revision, time allowing.
 
Racoras said:
Anyways, I like this! Some quests give a lot of discretion to the author and the character's autopilot by having voters pick what scene to move to, or broad ideas of what goals to aim at. This one though, theres no timeskips, no broad picks. We stop multiple times in a conversation to adjust responses and the only reason the votes are less detailed than Marked for Death is that we aren't packing multiple days into each vote with the same narrow-focus we use here.
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Eh, we've had 2k+ word plans for what amounted to about two hours quest time in Marked for Death. Granted, the most recent example was a fairly "life or death" operational plan for a group of twelve to execute an effective ambush under severe time constraints, and the update had the QM conclude combat with "your plan was good enough that I didn't bother rolling", so it had some value. Still, we've recently been moving towards shorter plans simply because they result in more voter engagement.

On the "Brinapilot does what he wills" problem, it's kind of interesting that MfD ended up moving in the other direction: That the characters have superior context sensitive knowledge, and can refuse to do as instructed if they think it's stupid or harmful. Now our MC spontaneously gives speeches about ending hatred and mutual cooperation, and we just sigh and roll with it.
 
Here's my W.I.P., if you wish to criticize. Must do other things ATM, so use some if you like. My option is "Madowish Togetherness."

Homura can adapt, if we get her over the worst of it. She has that personality.

[X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
-[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.

Sabrina will answer as much as she knows, but Sabrina doesn't know everything. Homura gets results. Sabrina gets results. Ours are mostly cheating. Cheating won't solve everything, determination does.

Everything works, because this is how Homura made it to be. This world is the sum of her labors, somehow. Homura wished to be the one to protect Madoka this time. She is, and she has been. It feels different than that for two reasons.

POINT Kyuubey cheats. He lets you take your powers, but without any training. The thing you want to do is "fight an alien occupation." Alone. Is it surprising that you needed to practice? It sent Homura in without any offensive weapon at all.

POINT Does she know why she feels so much pain right now? It is an injury to her emotions. It is called PTSD, and she got it because aliens made her into a soldier at the age of thirten.
Think of PTSD like it is Grief. You have trouble thinking when it hurts. We need to talk slowly, so Homura has time to think.

How does your loop work? Your wish sends you back in time to re-do your first meeting by yourself?
WRONG. You Wished for her to meet you. You bent the world to do it, and it is working. You go back, with accumulated memories and items. Everyone else changes a bit sometimes. Except you, who are different every time, and Madoka, who is always herself. Madoka goes back in time too, unconscious and in sync.

You two are connected. It's Yin and Yang. Is this O.K. with you? It seems like you wanted that to happen? The only complication is The System.

The reason everything is working now isn't Sabrina, nor Madoka. It is that you didn't give up, and became more powerful than the Incubators. Not 'her' alone, both of you. Over the ten years that you two have been looping, things have been getting better. You have accumulated skills and knowledge, mental strength and education. Invisibly, Madoka is growing as well. Her Wish changes, you can see that. You two have to work together, it is your Wish. You did keep her from being tricked. Her Wish now includes a way for you to be together at last. When you both accept one another, this all happens. Sabrina happens. We have much work yet to finish, but is that anything to complain about?

Sabrina is not a leader, she's put out in front where you want her. Sabrina is not even a useful shield. Sabrina has been attracting attention - she is your diversion. Because there is something Sabrina doesn't do well. Protect Madoka. What is Sabrina? A literal battery for Magical Girls. Sabrina needs saving all the time, she's just a big rookie. She takes big risks, where the protector can't. Sabrina trips traps. Sabrina breaks up the indirect attacks. Sabrina hugs strangers. You have stopped Kyuubey directly. Your wish requires freedom of action. Without a team, you could never fully block Kyuubey. With Mami, Sabrina, now Sayaka, and everyone, you maybe have a chance.

The only thing Madoka changed this time was to wish away the unfair advantage the Incubators have. Her style is, of course, to try and give that help to everyone. She's cheering us all on. In case you didn't see that beautiful girl attached to my side over on the couch, my special nature obviously isn't to have a meeting with Madoka. That's all you. Sabrina is just along to help.
 
If if-clauses are the problem, can't we just put a couple lines in the vote and break the update there, then have like another 24 hours for another small update, and so on?
 
LendvaV said:
If if-clauses are the problem, can't we just put a couple lines in the vote and break the update there, then have like another 24 hours for another small update, and so on?
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This would be very difficult to execute for both players and @Firnagzen. We'd have little time to discuss our vote (note how the update dropped on Wednesday and there still isn't consensus) and would force Firn to write on very short notice, which can be a big problem depending on his other commitments. This is why a lot of quests stick to predictable schedules.
 
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