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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The most important question: Has the gang covered Banach-Tarski in school yet?
:p
Will we get an "Oh, Sabrina"? Will Sayaka throw something at us? Will Hitomi get a headache watching it happen?
Find out next week on PMAS!
 
Redshirt Army said:
The Banach-Tarski paradox comes into play.

In short, if we can divide an object made of an absolute substance into a set of 3D fractals, we should be able to arbitrarily multiply the total amount of those objects, forever. If this fails, that tells us something about grief. If it succeeds...
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The Banach-Tarski paradox is much harder to realize than true infinite-precision fractals, since it requires picking out an uncountably infinite set of true zero-size points according to a rule that cannot be specified in any finite amount of information. Even if we can create grief like this, there's no way we'd be able to tell if we were actually realizing the paradox instead of just using it as a mnemonic for creating grief.
 
Skelm said:
The Banach-Tarski paradox is much harder to realize than true infinite-precision fractals, since it requires picking out an uncountably infinite set of true zero-size points according to a rule that cannot be specified in any finite amount of information. Even if we can create grief like this, there's no way we'd be able to tell if we were actually realizing the paradox instead of just using it as a mnemonic for creating grief.
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I mean, being able to use it as a mnemonic to generate (volume of) grief is still a win. I'm honestly curious if we can generate even a simple fractal, though.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I'll note for the the tracking equipment that we do have multiple methods to cover that, including a simple phone app should it come down to it.
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Redshirt Army said:
We've shied away from explicitly poking at Homura's Madoka thing for a bit in front of others (and QB). Could you make this a bit more broad? I'm sure if we mentioned "protective enchantments to share" she'd reach the Madoka conclusion herself.
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All good points, yes. And enough posts have been made that I'm just going to put the new one in this post instead of hyperediting the old one... Re: tracking and phone app, though, do we think Homura would trust technology enough for this? If so, yeah, we can probably cut that, but we seem to have been leaning on the idea of improved tracking for awhile...

How's this look? Still 150 words by the count.

[x] Airi: Be mild, neutral, polite.
-[x] "Me."
-[x] Explain what's going on and where she'll be staying.
-[x] Telepathically, non-specifically: You'll keep working on what Oriko discussed.
-[x] Address her replies. Avoid witchbomb.

[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[x] Ensure Oriko's okay with the 'Kures' thing.

[X] Telepathy Masami, Hiroko: re: Ono, progress finding Kuroki.

[X] Mami: Thoughts about O&K, freedom, and Homura and Sayaka.
-[x] Potential O&K tracking, monitoring methods? Technology? Magic?

[X] Practice session.
-[X] With Madoka and Hitomi, if they want.
--[x] Update them about alliance. We're reasonably optimistic.
-[X] Homura: Suggest protective magics to share. Artifacts, safety alarms, beacons?
--[x] Indicate her shield ("defensive affinity") as cover for reasoning
-[X] Assist Sayaka with power testing
-[X] Confer with Mami on enchantments. Consider:
--[x] Practice analyzing/copying enchantments?
--[x] Dimensionality/quantization of grief. True 3D fractals?
--[x] Non-witchy clone work?
--[x] Speckled enchantment development: O&K tracking bracelet
 
The discussions with Mami regarding Homura are all problematic because they implicitly assume that Brinapilot will explain why tracking bracelets are a good solution. Which we've learned is not a safe thing to trust.
 
mCooperative said:
All good points, yes. And enough posts have been made that I'm just going to put the new one in this post instead of hyperediting the old one... Re: tracking and phone app, though, do we think Homura would trust technology enough for this? If so, yeah, we can probably cut that, but we seem to have been leaning on the idea of improved tracking for awhile...
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The thing here is, we're already got tracking device talk on the note to brainstorm with Mami and we haven't exactly talked with Homura herself about it. It's much to soon to actually try making the device before we even know she'd be okay with that solution.

Edit:
And if Veb's words are any indication, that wordcount would be better spent on the explanation to Mami.
 
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Vebyast said:
The discussions with Mami regarding Homura are all problematic because they implicitly assume that Brinapilot will explain why tracking bracelets are a good solution. Which we've learned is not a safe thing to trust.
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... if they're implicitly assuming Brinapilot will explain, I think we may be doing something wrong, since that would mean explaining a good bit more of Homura's everything than I think we want to be doing. Suggestions for solutions?

The Phoenixian said:
The thing here is, we're already got tracking device talk on the note to brainstorm with Mami and we haven't exactly talked with Homura herself about it. It's much to soon to actually try making the device before we even know she'd be okay with that solution.
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I was a little concerned with the redundancy thing, yeah... And, fair point with the too soon to make the device- although I had been thinking that we wanted to have it proven that we could do it, have the product in hand so to speak, before trying to get Homura to accept it as a potential solution.

Edit: So, okay, probably cut the actual dev on the tracking until we can talk to Homura. I suppose the talk would be more hoping for the response from her of "If you can get x method of tracking to work, prove it works, then... we'll see" or something similar. Suggestions on wording the explanation, though? Was mostly thinking we oughta just frame it like mundane parole with the tracking bracelets and stuff.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Honestly, I think if it's done right she'll trust it more. Remember, Kirika has antimagic. That's something any tracking system to soothe Homura's paranoia needs to overcome.
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Always with the excellent points, you are.

How's this, everyone?

[x] Airi: Be mild, neutral, polite.
-[x] "Me."
-[x] Explain what's going on and where she'll be staying.
-[x] Telepathically, non-specifically: You'll keep working on what Oriko discussed.
-[x] Address her replies. Avoid witchbomb.

[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[x] Ensure Oriko's okay with the 'Kures' thing.

[X] Telepathy Masami, Hiroko: re: Ono, progress finding Kuroki.

[X] Mami: Thoughts about O&K, freedom, parole.
-[x] Homura and Sayaka's security, justice, punishment concerns.
-[x] Potential solution/concern alleviation: O&K tracking, monitoring methods? Technology? Magic?

[X] Practice session.
-[X] With Madoka and Hitomi, if they want.
--[x] Update them about alliance. We're reasonably optimistic.
-[X] Homura: Suggest protective magics to share. Artifacts, safety alarms, beacons?
--[x] Indicate her shield ("defensive affinity") as cover for reasoning
-[X] Assist Sayaka with power testing
-[X] Confer with Mami on enchantments. Consider:
--[x] Practice analyzing/copying enchantments?
--[x] Dimensionality/quantization of grief. True 3D fractals?
--[x] Non-witchy clone work?


Also:

Muramasa said:
The time stop enchant session with Homura is still a thing, isn't it?
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Wait, that was a thing? Well, I expect the question of that will have to be answered after we see how the O&K talk goes, anyway.
 
Muramasa said:
The time stop enchant session with Homura is still a thing, isn't it?
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I don't know.

I remember asking about that, and also asking Homura to spot for us when we finally get around to trying the 'let enough Grief out of our range' thing to see what happens.

I actually remember Homura agreeing to that, we just need to actually call her and try it.
 
mCooperative said:
I mean, there's at least one simple idea. Wishmaker's a local kid with decent potential, and sometime during the mid-2000's Mt. St. Helens activity, she gets scared of, you know, the possibility of having everything around her covered in pyroclastic flow and whatnot. Because it was kinda terrifying even from like, a whole state away, when I was small. And the mountain's always been part of the background, always been part of the horizon, always been part of home, so she doesn't get it into her head to wish away the volcano, or kill it, or send it dormant for a thousand years or something. But also, panicking. She tries to be a dab hand at clever wording, and stumbles through something like, "We've always tried to take care of the mountain, and the forest, and the state parks and stuff. And, people live here, and I don't want anyone to die. Please- I wish the mountain would take care of us, too. That we'd be able to live safely, together. I wish the mountain would never have to betray us, would want never to betray us, would never have to erupt and kill anyone, ever again."

To want, one must live, and to be able to betray, one must be friend. In the loosest sense, anyway.

And suddenly, we have a local anthromorphization of Mt. St. Helens. And also an end to the 2006 volcanic activity. (Clearly the later 2008 activity was a result of a meguca fight that required more, ah, firepower than ever before.)
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... *can work with that*

Skelm said:
The Banach-Tarski paradox is much harder to realize than true infinite-precision fractals, since it requires picking out an uncountably infinite set of true zero-size points according to a rule that cannot be specified in any finite amount of information. Even if we can create grief like this, there's no way we'd be able to tell if we were actually realizing the paradox instead of just using it as a mnemonic for creating grief.
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wait ok can someone explain this in simple terms or you know, at least in terms without a background in ...whatever field of study this is covering.

also

[X]Onmur
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Honestly, I think if it's done right she'll trust it more. Remember, Kirika has antimagic. That's something any tracking system to soothe Homura's paranoia needs to overcome.
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Honestly, I think ease and reliability of use is a bigger factor here than defeatability. The point here isn't creating an infallible tool, its having something Homura can find and check up on herself to locate Oriko and Kirika. The ideal tool is one where, If they're not with the device, whatever we end up using, or the device can't be found then we know they're officially up to something.

EDIT:

Muramasa said:
The time stop enchant session with Homura is still a thing, isn't it?
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I was of the understanding that that was a more general science session, not enchantment specific.
 
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I agree it's more about Homu being able to check any time.

In fact, right now, O&K could escape and start shit and nobody would notice until Homu gets ansty and goes check. What we need is basically the same deal, but allowing O&K mobility.
 
Onmur said:
What we need is basically the same deal, but allowing O&K mobility.
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Something to be hashed out with Homura herself, at this point, I think, if we're not planning to start dev now. We certainly have enough ideas that we can provide when we get to the vote covering the conversation.
 
mCooperative said:
[x] Airi: Be mild, neutral, polite.
-[x] "Me."
-[x] Explain what's going on and where she'll be staying.
-[x] Telepathically, non-specifically: You'll keep working on what Oriko discussed.
-[x] Address her replies. Avoid witchbomb.


[X] Mami: Thoughts about O&K, freedom, parole.
-[x] Homura and Sayaka's security, justice, punishment concerns.
-[x] Potential solution/concern alleviation: O&K tracking, monitoring methods? Technology? Magic?

[X] Practice session.
-[X] With Madoka and Hitomi, if they want.
--[x] Update them about alliance. We're reasonably optimistic.
-[X] Homura: Suggest protective magics to share. Artifacts, safety alarms, beacons?
--[x] Indicate her shield ("defensive affinity") as cover for reasoning
-[X] Assist Sayaka with power testing
-[X] Confer with Mami on enchantments. Consider:
--[x] Practice analyzing/copying enchantments?
--[x] Dimensionality/quantization of grief. True 3D fractals?
--[x] Non-witchy clone work?
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I don't like "avoid witchbomb" because it reads like we're the ones who are at risk of dropping it, rather than Anri. Clarity is important and I don't want to go so far only to mess up now because we failed to consider anything before we walked in the room and were unclear afterwards.

I feel that the talk of Homura's concerns could be more efficient.

I'm fretting that we're also: the talk on basics has been cut entirely here and other stuff is getting short enough to lose context.

Also this:
--[] Dimensionality/quantization of grief. True 3D fractals?
Is grief-science, not enchantment.

Honestly, I'm wondering whether we should be suggesting enchantment stuff to Homura at all. She presumably knows what she'd focus on.

The thread has been going quite fast, moreso than I can type, so for now I'm going to do:

[x] Anri: Be mild, neutral, polite.
-[x] "Me."
-[x] Explain what's going on and where she'll be staying.
-[x] Telepathically, nonspecificly: You'll keep working on what Oriko discussed.

-[x] Address her replies. Ensure she doesn't spill witchbomb beans.

[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[x] Ask Oriko's if she's okay with the 'Kures' thing.

[X] Telepathy Masami and Hiroko about Ono, progress finding Kuroki.

[X] Mami: Thoughts about O&K, freedom, and Homura. Discuss viability of tracking/monitoring O&K for assuaging Homura.
-[X] Thoughts on Sayaka?

[X] Practice session.
-[X] Let Madoka and Hitomi attend if they want.
-[X] Nudge Homura towards protective/tracking magics. "Her shield might indicate an affinity for it."
--[X] Confer with Mami on your enchantment curriculum.
---[X] Should you practice analyzing/copying enchantments?
---[X] Default to replicating basic elements of your power.
---[X] Non-witchy pocket Brina, and components thereof, (sight, coloration, etc.)
-[X] Assist Sayaka with testing her powers.
 
DB_Explorer said:
wait ok can someone explain this in simple terms or you know, at least in terms without a background in ...whatever field of study this is covering.
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Basically, sets of disconnected points often don't have a well defined volume. As a result, it is possible to divide the points making up a solid ball into five distinct sets with undefined volume and rearrange them into two balls of equal size to the original.

Actually constructing such a set requires you to make an uncountably infinite number of arbitrary decisions about where to point any given point, so it's definitely not something that can be done in physical reality, and a lot of mathematicians find this kind of nonconstructive proof dubious.
 
Skelm said:
Basically, sets of disconnected points often don't have a well defined volume. As a result, it is possible to divide the points making up a solid ball into five distinct sets with undefined volume and rearrange them into two balls of equal size to the original.

Actually constructing such a set requires you to make an uncountably infinite number of arbitrary decisions about where to point any given point, so it's definitely not something that can be done in physical reality, and a lot of mathematicians find this kind of nonconstructive proof dubious.
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now picturing Mami admonishing Sabrina over using dubious mathematical proofs
 
The Phoenixian said:
I feel that the talk of Homura's concerns could be more efficient.
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I'm really not sure we want to be pinning O&K monitoring to just Homura, not least of which is the fact it's an important general concern even beyond Homura's specific reservations. You do make a good point about the witchbomb thing. Could you explain what you are meaning by "Default to replicating basic elements of your power." in your vote? I'm not entirely clear on what this is actually saying for us to do?

Edit: @Redshirt Army would you be okay with putting the 3D fractals on the list for another day? Since, yeah, I suppose this was marked out to be a specifically enchantment-focused day.
 
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I'll point out that we still might be able to fit in have non-enchantment science if we're lucky. We do still have to recontact Hijiri, talk with Homura and Sayaka, and ensure a witch is hunted though.

Honestly, it occurs to me that if our computation is finite and you want to really push our ability to deal with the axiom of choice and infinite computation, then what you need is a mechanical computer, made of grief, that can itself control grief.

(It's rod-logic all the way down)
 
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The Phoenixian said:
Honestly, it occurs to me that if our computation is finite and you want to really push our ability to deal with the axiom of choice and infinite computation, then what you need is a mechanical computer, made of grief, that can itself control grief.

(It's rod-logic all the way down)
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except Sabrina made it so there's like a 60% chance all its outputs are 'Hug mami'
 
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