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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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GiftOfLove said:
Will it conflict with Anri's wish? If yes, it either won't hold, or it will some pretty terrible side effects on her.

Edit: About Oriko, remember that burning someone's house down is a real big deal. Like, sure we can shrug it off because we're just reading this, but imagine it from Sayaka's perspective. Her home is gone. All of her things. All the stuff she and her family kept there. Mementos, pictures, and just general stuff you collect over time.

Then there's the hardship it most definitely placed on her family. They're now indepted to someone else, their finances probably took a hit even if Hitomi's family shielded them from the worst of it.

Sure, saving the world is a great excuse for anything you want to do, but that doesn't mean it's one that the people you harm will accept. Or that they'll forgive you for what you did to do it. Especially not if Sayaka knew that they were likely planning to kill Madoka.

Some punishment is really needed. Seriously.
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I'm really not okay with punishing people because someone else has strong feelings about it. If that's how we're doing things, why aren't we standing back while Anri kills the Pleiades Saints? Because she's not our friend and Sayaka is?

Punishment should be based on deterrent effect and public safety/recidivism risk. Nothing else.
 
Skelm said:
If that's how we're doing things, why aren't we standing back while Anri kills the Pleiades Saints?
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The Pleiades Saints didn't actually do the thing that Anri hates them for. Oriko actually did burn Sayaka's house down and did maim us with an IED.

These things feel like forever ago to us, but to everyone else they happened a couple weeks ago. The wounds are still fresh and raw.
 
Torgamous said:
Because Sayaka has a legitimate grievance and Anri doesn't. We're obviously not going to let someone take revenge for something that never actually happened.
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The Narrator said:
The Pleiades Saints didn't actually do the thing that Anri hates them for. Oriko actually did burn Sayaka's house down and did maim us with an IED.

These things feel like forever ago to us, but to everyone else they happened a couple weeks ago. The wounds are still fresh and raw.
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So what? Anri's feelings are very real, real enough to power a wish. If Sayaka's emotions are enough to justify hurting someone, why aren't Anri's?

To be clear, this isn't arguing that punishing Oriko more harshly for arson is a bad idea (though I do think it is), I'm arguing that you shouldn't change that position based on Sayaka's feelings. To do so is to say that it's acceptable to hurt someone because you feel really strongly that they should be hurt.
 
Apropos of nothing, I have an idea of a Mother's Day gift we could give Momura: a Dominator.
It's a specialized gun used by the police force in another of Urobutcher's works, Psycho-Pass. It has multiple modes of operation: The first non-lethally paralyzes the target, causing at worst the need for a few days' bed rest; the second is far more lethal, with human targets typically exploding into a bloody mess; the final mode is even more powerful, being able to destroy military drones with a single shot, or completely erase a less-armored target. In the setting, both the safety and the mode are controlled by the Sibyl System, which determines the psychological profiles of the people.
 
Skelm said:
So what? Anri's feelings are very real, real enough to power a wish. If Sayaka's emotions are enough to justify hurting someone, why aren't Anri's?

To be clear, this isn't arguing that punishing Oriko more harshly for arson is a bad idea (though I do think it is), I'm arguing that you shouldn't change that position based on Sayaka's feelings. To do so is to say that it's acceptable to hurt someone because you feel really strongly that they should be hurt.
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Sayaka's feelings are a symptom of a legitimate greviance, which means that the lack of respect for us stemming from ignoring her input on Oriko's sentence cannot be easily dealt with. Furthermore, that lack of respect directly translates into decreased utility from Sayaka, which directly decreases our ability to use her to make changes to the world.

Because Airi's feelings stem from a misunderstanding, which can be clarified, and because she's less useful to us as a whole, her feelings on the Pleiades can be safely considered and dismissed compared to the costs indulging those feelings would bring.
 
Skelm said:
To be clear, this isn't arguing that punishing Oriko more harshly for arson is a bad idea (though I do think it is), I'm arguing that you shouldn't change that position based on Sayaka's feelings.
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Remember what we did in Sendai? We found and implemented a solution as many involved people as possible could accept. We're doing the same thing here. Unsupervised house arrest is super lenient for arson ending with people getting hospitalized, but it's a good balance for what everyone wants and needs out of the situation. That may not be rule of law, but magical girls don't have rule of law. They have diplomacy.
 
Skelm said:
To be clear, this isn't arguing that punishing Oriko more harshly for arson is a bad idea (though I do think it is), I'm arguing that you shouldn't change that position based on Sayaka's feelings. To do so is to say that it's acceptable to hurt someone because you feel really strongly that they should be hurt.
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You've lost me. Oriko wronged Sayaka by burning her house down with her family still in it. She was thus punished for her crimes. If we want to release her from her house arrest, we should first get consent from the wronged party that such is ok.
 
Onmur said:
Hijiri right now must believe she successfully escaped our horrible claws, and probably will take any claim that we didn't intend to force her to stay as... something... not good, not sure exactly how.
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Given she may be worried about recapture, that same thought could to color any offer to meet as well, unless defused.

Figuring out how handle that is being a pain.

Onmur said:
[ ] Homura:
-[ ] Give her your honest opinions about O&K after observing them. You can't in good conscience keep them under arrest.
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Disagree with it. Homura won't agree to letting O&K go. If we ask for something, I'd rather it be lesser, but more achievable.
 
Torgamous said:
Remember what we did in Sendai? We found and implemented a solution as many involved people as possible could accept. We're doing the same thing here. Unsupervised house arrest is super lenient for arson ending with people getting hospitalized, but it's a good balance for what everyone wants and needs out of the situation. That may not be rule of law, but magical girls don't have rule of law. They have diplomacy.
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Gone are the times of:

[Q] Deploy Homuplomacy

No more shall anyone fall to :

[Q] Kyouplomacy

Though there were some losses to:

[Q] Onoplomacy

Finally, we have found the highest form of Diplomacy:

[!] Oriplomacy

We can finally communicate with other groups without scaring/offending them or making them think realize we're brain damaged.
 
Skelm said:
So what? Anri's feelings are very real, real enough to power a wish. If Sayaka's emotions are enough to justify hurting someone, why aren't Anri's?

To be clear, this isn't arguing that punishing Oriko more harshly for arson is a bad idea (though I do think it is), I'm arguing that you shouldn't change that position based on Sayaka's feelings. To do so is to say that it's acceptable to hurt someone because you feel really strongly that they should be hurt.
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Sayaka's feelings, and Homura's, are a practical issue. Doing something that they both despise will cost us their trust, which will seriously damage unit cohesion and make them less likely to listen to us in the future, assuming that they don't outright refuse to work with us any further. This could cause us to fail against Walpurgisnacht or some other threat, leading to a Madowish. Alienating them could literally doom humanity.

As for the moral issue, wanting to let someone off the hook for their actions because you've come to like them is no more just than wanting to punish someone because you dislike them.

I also would like to be able to offer Oriko more freedom, but our wishes are not the only factor here.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Given she may be worried about recapture, that same thought could to color any offer to meet as well, unless defused.

Figuring out how handle that is being a pain.


Disagree with it. Homura won't agree to letting O&K go. If we ask for something, I'd rather it be lesser, but more achievable.
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Well, to start with, we should let everyone know we've asked Oriko to help with the social side of things. I.e. talking with other meguca without pissing them off or losing patience.

That's a responsibility, so by necessity we need to let Oriko have some more freedom. For one, we should take her along whenever we meet troublesome meguca groups.

... And we're gonna be meeting the Fukushima girls today, aren't we? We could offer Oriko if she wants to tag along, though I wouldn't force her...
 
Seriously though, the largest concession we can possibly get from Homumom regarding Oriko and Kirika ( you saw nothing ) is that they will be able to buy groceries themselves and when they want to, and to visit Kirika's parents.
Actually, we need to talk with our bestbuddy about that. After all, her parents are worried, and they aren't really to blame their daughter is a chuunibyou crazy and in love Meguca. On the practical side, I think that will help us gain some leverage in our discussion with Homura and Sayaka.
Even prisoners are allowed to see their relatives from time to time.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
IF we do decide to memory-screw Anri at any point, this is all extremely important.

We should decline for now but thank Niko for it; that's something that's much more ethically palpable, but right now want to see where we can go without it.

Hell, we can at least offer it to Anri if she starts trouble under her arrest. "Dewitching Yuuri will need a purity of focus; we can temporarily block the Pleiades out of your mind until Yuuri is back, if you want."

I agree it shouldn't be used unless Anri agrees with it or if the alternative is something worse; it's entirely correct that using it will inhibit her ability to rehabilitate, and if she gets her memories back and realizes she was mindraped, we'll lose ground like with the Freezer.

Hijiri finding out will ALSO make us lose ground with her, because we made a girl into a fucking puppet.
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The first half (three blocks of text) of your post is something I very much agree with. The rest I mostly agree with.
 
Ok, I've decided to keep going. I will simply refrain from discussing certain topics.
 
[X] Niko.
-[X] You could offer it to Anri, you can see the use as a therapy tool, but you won't edit people's minds against their will.
-[X] Ask about developing security measures for prisoners.

[X] Wrap up and leave.
-[X] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[X] Hugs.

[X]On the way back talk to:
-[X]O&K:
--[X] Ask to swap Aurora for the derrick witch.
--[X] Tell them about magic mingling.
-[X] Sayaka:
--[X] You want to talk with her in private later.
-[X] Telepathy Hijiri:
--[X] Update her on Anri: Both her situation and her (unacceptable) actions.
--[X] Ask whether she grilled KB for answers, difficult at that is.
--[X] There's things we can't talk over telepathy: Offer to meet in person for talking/cleansing, whenever she wants, no strings attached.

I'm still unsure about telepathying Hijiri right now, but voting for it for the time being! :V
 
[X] Niko.
-[X] You could offer it to Anri, you can see the use as a therapy tool, but you won't edit people's minds against their will.
-[X] Ask about developing security measures for prisoners.

[X] Wrap up and leave.
-[X] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[X] Hugs.

[X]On the way back talk to:
-[X]O&K:
--[X] Ask to swap Aurora for the derrick witch.
--[X] Tell them about magic mingling.
-[X] Sayaka:
--[X] You want to talk with her in private later.
-[Q] Hijiri:
--[Q] No.
 
Yeah same issue with Hijiri as last vote. Too soon in IC time.

Onmur said:
[X] Niko.
-[X] You could offer it to Anri, you can see the use as a therapy tool, but you won't edit people's minds against their will.
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Too strong a rejection. I mean, I agree with the idea actually, but poor Niko needs to be handled gently right now. The update practically draws a point on how she's feeling.



You can see the use as a therapy tool, or something to consider if she can't be contained otherwise. You don't like the idea of editing her mind, though. It's a definitely a better last resort.
?
 
[X] Niko.
-[X] You can see the use as a therapy tool, but only if Anri agrees to it (now or later).
--[X] It's a better last resort, in case Anri can't be contained otherwise.
-[X] Ask about developing security measures for prisoners.

[X] Wrap up and leave.
-[X] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[X] Hugs.

[X]On the way back talk to:
-[X]O&K:
--[X] Ask to swap Aurora for the derrick witch.
--[X] Tell them about magic mingling.
-[X] Sayaka:
--[X] You want to talk with her in private later.
-[] Mami (private):
--[] Share you want to talk with everyone about O&K, their contributions, the role you offered gave Oriko, and about lessening their restrictions.

How about something like this?
 
Oh, cheating asking Mumi for advice. I forgot that option.
Sounds good to me.

[X] Onmur
 
Raiseth said:
Oh, cheating asking Mumi for advice. I forgot that option.
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How could you.

Mumi is always available. Almost literally. Literally, if you count telepathy.

...

We should push Mami to master clones, soon. Today, in fact, during enchantment practice!

EDIT: And we should totally make a Brina clone. Studying a Brina clone can help Mami master her own clones!

First step in the analysis will be analyzing Clone Brina for any difference in Hugging Power, of course. Then analyzing whether the Hugging Power of multiple Brinas is additive or multiplicative.
 
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