Active memory suppression feels like a poor choice for long term solution. It might work as a plan B or emergency stopgap.

But, yah. Only marginally better than fridging, and implementation would have to be based on informed consent (if nothing else that should reduce the system shock in case of suppression failure).
 
It's an interesting proposal. Not really one we want to use right off the bat, but maybe if she hurts someone during an escape attempt?
(if this is a reply to me rather than the more general proposal-)
Less 'if she hurts someone' and more 'she's apologetic about hurting someone but REVENGE'. Hurting people willingly to get revenge is exactly what she just did- if she does it, she hasn't improved. In my head, if she's a danger to everyone and we can't fix it, I'd rather avoid the mindfuck and hire mercs or even just kill her- it's basically no better than shoving a straightjacket on her and calling it a day. The only advantage of mindfuck is that, if she's made friends to support her and help her heal, it lets her remain with them and continue healing (minus whatever damage the mindfuck has done, so it should preferably be optional as 'stay with frendos BUT mindfuck').
 
Would her memory of the Pleiades be sufficiently relevant to her Wishing circumstances that forgetting them would give her soul problems? Or are they tangential enough to the death of her friend?
 
@The Narrator , Thank you for contributing re: Hijiri. Could I ask you to try it from the more abstract view, as stated?
This is an attempt to get us to debate -just- the goal over time regarding Hijiri. If we are all pursuing different goals, it would be more convenient to enumerate them beforehand?
So, please imagine the result you intend, over hours and days and weeks?


We can strive to level up our group ability for rehab with specialists. In fact, it should be the best expansion ATM. Refugees may survive better as well, because Shiogama girls are traumatized out-of-the-box. Further refugees won't likely be 'happy types' until we become a trendy destination. At first, the desperate will predominate - well, a huge proportion of Magical Girls are living in desperation all the time. Further, Oriko is of the opinion we can't handle the crazy. Solution could be different, if someone invents another rehab strategy. Is there one?

Memory device can be set to erase other concepts? Or just to equip Recon!Sayaka? Can we use it as a selective part of our security effort? Perhaps by having the "memory of using my magic" not happen?

OTOH, making it a smaller radius, but still just blocking Hijiri is also a useful spell for rehab? It separates them, in that mode. "Yuuri" changed Hijiri's path by persuasion, but not the other way around? Therefore, doesn't change Anri's self-perception at all?

Agreement.
While that could work it's also not on my list of preferred solutions. Messing with another's mind is pretty reprehensible and if we were to use it and it ever breaks, we'll have a murderous Anri on our hands who might just witch out on the spot.

Messing with the personhood of Anri using mind control is bad. Don't try to mess with her life history. During the time she is in custody, mind control to block escape might be acceptable? Our guards and therapist deserve to be safe.

Not addressing Hijiri ATM, waiting on a little debate. Current intent would resemble my prior intent for her, convince me.

The angry prisoner is not a suitable souvenir for the most important girl in our lives. Out in a new city, even if it isn't a date? We should offer to get one together, or gift Mami on the QT. Treat our Ojou right. Kirika is one up on this ATM.

Prototype -



[X] Ask Mami, Hitomi, Kazumi about teen psychological recovery centers.

[X] Ask Oriko for Anri's conditions. No anger.
-[X] Need custody enchantments
--[X] Information filter, blacklists chosen words
--[X] Anti-magic
--[X] Tracking
--[X] Anti-telepathy
--[X] Incubator tripwire
--[X] Tamper tripwire

[X] Souveniers
 
I think the other big, important thing to consider is that Niko is pretty down right now and repeatedly rejecting her ideas when all day she's felt powerless and her wish has literally turned against her is just going to hurt her more. So even if this isn't the best idea, a tactful rejection is necessary, or even an acceptance without actual intent to use it immediately. Like, don't just straight no this, it'll probably just make Niko more depressed.




The thing about the memory device is that it still allows development and communication the freezer wouldn't. If we want to, as Homura suggested, rehabilitate her, it's an order of magnitude better as a temporary fix to let us make some initial progress.
 
Could a super-selective use of the memory device prevent anyone in the field from attempting to communicate the witchbomb? Niko has got half a leg up on a huge unlock item for us?

Or, we just add it to Sayaka's arsenal? If @SynchronizedWritersBlock is right, we can both "say yes" that way, and protect our angel ally during her development when war comes to town.
 
It might be useful to know what Anri would end up having fill the blanks that the Memory Device removed. Since she Wished specifically in order to get revenge, and we can't just have her forget she's a magical girl, cause holy hell will that cause some problems, we needs something to at least fill in that blank of her memory. Meaning at least some minor edits to the memories around it as well. And Hijiri is still out there, probably wanting to get into contact with her friend as well... which would really fuck things up if we make Anri forget her as well.

I mean, if we pull a face swap like the Kyubey ==> Jyubey device, that still leaves Anri raring to go kill the Shedalis Paints, which makes her just as hard to handle as without the memory device.
 
It might be useful to know what Anri would end up having fill the blanks that the Memory Device removed. Since she Wished specifically in order to get revenge, and we can't just have her forget she's a magical girl, cause holy hell will that cause some problems, we needs something to at least fill in that blank of her memory. Meaning at least some minor edits to the memories around it as well. And Hijiri is still out there, probably wanting to get into contact with her friend as well... which would really fuck things up if we make Anri forget her as well.

I mean, if we pull a face swap like the Kyubey ==> Jyubey device, that still leaves Anri raring to go kill the Shedalis Paints, which makes her just as hard to handle as without the memory device.

IF we do decide to memory-screw Anri at any point, this is all extremely important.

We should decline for now but thank Niko for it; that's something that's much more ethically palpable, but right now want to see where we can go without it.

Hell, we can at least offer it to Anri if she starts trouble under her arrest. "Dewitching Yuuri will need a purity of focus; we can temporarily block the Pleiades out of your mind until Yuuri is back, if you want."

I agree it shouldn't be used unless Anri agrees with it or if the alternative is something worse; it's entirely correct that using it will inhibit her ability to rehabilitate, and if she gets her memories back and realizes she was mindraped, we'll lose ground like with the Freezer.

Hijiri finding out will ALSO make us lose ground with her, because we made a girl into a fucking puppet.
 
Hell, we can at least offer it to Anri if she starts trouble under her arrest. "Dewitching Yuuri will need a purity of focus; we can temporarily block the Pleiades out of your mind until Yuuri is back, if you want."
Preeeeeeetty much what I'm thinking, too.

Anri will probably refuse first thing, but we can leave the option on the table for the future, in case she changes her mind.
 
I've already said a couple of times the sort of things I think we need to say to her:
  • Let her know that Anri almost killed a bunch of people, and see if she's still sane enough to feel any sort of guilt over that.
  • Let her know that Anri is caught and will be treated humanely, rather than whatever bullshit Kyubey might tell her.
  • Let her know that cleansing is available so she doesn't have to get herself killed or something stupid and evil like create Evil Nuts.
  • Correct any stupid misconceptions resulting from believing Anri's delusions.
Updating Hijiri on Anri and re-offering cleansing I can see, though I doubt how much they'd help.

'Correcting stupid misconceptions'... Well, no clue how to get there. Hijiri's hasn't exactly been arguing honestly with us.


You crook a finger, just a touch of will to act your intention on the world. A blob of Grief sails over to you from a distant part of your outer orbit, and you bring it carefully over to Niko. "Uh, here's the memory device back. Hope it isn't damaged or anything."

"Ah. That. Thanks, Sabrina," Niko says, stretching her hand out to catch the device, the rounded, triangular disc fitting snugly in her palm.
"Ah. That."

What, did Niko... forget about it? :V


"Yeah," Sayaka says. "I... really don't like the idea of Miss Mad Scientist there just switching someone off for good. Gives me the creeps."
Now be nice, Sayaka. Niko can't help being a Mad Scientist. It's being a Mad Scientist that can help her!

Since she Wished specifically in order to get revenge
I think there's some leeway, as while Anri definitely was thinking of revenge, the Wish itself was to take over Yuuri's life.

Man, did she suck at doing that. :p

The actual actual swearing of revenge happened a bit later.

Still, a problem.
 
I think I'm gonna drop the vote lockout as an experiment - not sure it really adds much!
Screw you, Firn, I'm not gonna vote until there's productive discussion as to what would be best for the vote! :V

Loose votes without discussion have driven many faulty bandwagons. EDIT: Badwagons, you could say.

Don't want to go back to people rushing to vote and people rushing to form wagons only to later not participate anymore and leave the big, misdirected wagon rolling down a cliff.
 
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So, an important question that doesn't seem to have been considered: What are we doing with Anri on the way back to Mitakihara, and until we actually successfully hire minders?

Anyways, immediate thoughts:

[] To Niko: No, you don't want to edit people's minds against their will.
[] Wrap up and leave.
-[] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[] Hugs.

[]On the way back talk to:
-[]O&K
--[] Ask to swap Aurora for the derrick witch.
--[] Tell them about magic mingling.
-[] Sayaka
--[] You want to talk with her in private later, about today and what you couldn't get to last night.
-[] Hijiri:
--[] Talk, even if she's silent.
--[] Update her on Anri: Both her situation and her (unacceptable) actions.
--[] You know the truth, and Anri was wrong. You'd rather talk in person. Telepathy is... insecure.
--[] Offer to cleanse her if she needs it, whenever or wherever she needs it.
-[] Tell Homura about Oriko and Kirika being helpful

Hmm. This might sound random, but honest thought: I don't know what to do with Hijiri.

We kind of had a plan some updates ago and I still think we're on the 'wait a bit and call her' bit and the 'how did the KB talk go' bit but I don't actually have an idea formed inside my mind about how to deal with Hijiri anymore, like I had a feeble one back when we were all discussing it, but after we let Hijiri go, I kind of lost grasp as to how to deal with her.

So... I hope there'll be some discussion about Hijiri before we need to call her again? ;)?

;)
Honestly, my thoughts was that it had been a while and this, the end of the talks, was around the time I was planning to wait for.

At the very least, I want her to know that and how the incident was resolved, and in a timely (read: immediate) manner, even if nothing else happens.

This is too close to Not For Telepathy knowledge. I don't want Kyubey to know without a doubt that we know this.
Okay, the actual issue has been resolved appropriately, but I'm going to make a contention here: There are plenty of things that are not for telepath, Metaknowledge and Homura's Time Travel for isntance. There are people who are actively endangered if we spread that around.

The witchbomb is another matter entirely. It's a danger to people learning of it, but keeping this on that level of secret actively impairs our ability to help or resolve problems. If work and research to solve it spreads, the odds of needing to talk about it remotely without flying over to meet in person becomes harder, and I imagine bringing up everyone's cell phones would come with all of the same issues and then some.

As to the possibility of Kyuubey knowing: We've publicly stated that we have entire system of magic in our heads the whole time --- with Kyuubey in earshot too, given we said it when we lichbombed Mami and he arrived immediately after --- and if that's not enough we've taken quite a lot of actions tangential to it, especially today.

Kyuubey's been watching all of this was likely been watching us when we talked about dangerous knowledge with Mami. Which we followed up with the big moment telepathing everyone about Anri's "dangerous knowledge." We also spent a fair amount of time talking with a girl Kyuubey knew to be witchbombed and spoke through allusion about the witchbomb with Nadia.
 
We never get to use Firn's templates

Tentative suggestion

[] Niko
- [] Thank her, but refuse. You will consider it if Airi refuses to cooperate or harms someone, but there is no call for such thing now.
[] Wrap up and leave.
-[] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[] Hugs.
[] On the way back
-[] Talk to...
--[] Mami
---[Q] Grief Chocolate, your new idea.
---[Q] She's a delinquent now.
---[Q] Do voteboxes count towards word limit or not?
---[] Small talk.
-[] Tell Homura about Oriko and Kirika being helpful
--[] Carefully

I think that it's less than 150. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is, just too lazy to count.
Besides it's just a suggestion, not a vote, so, meh.
 
[ ] Niko.
-[ ] We can offer this to Anri, but not force it. She'll probably refuse, but may change her mind in the future.
[ ] Wrap up and leave.
-[ ] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[ ] Hugs.


Mmm... rather than 'tell Homu O&K halp', can we do a small recap (probably not need the whole thing in text), just to not seem like we're just pushing to free O&K?

... Alternatively, straight up tell Homu our opinion about O&K, what we observed, and say we can't keep holding them in good conscience. That we're not rolling over Homu's objections, but let her know where we stand on the issue?

[]On the way back talk to:
-[]O&K
--[] Ask to swap Aurora for the derrick witch.
--[] Tell them about magic mingling.
-[] Sayaka
--[] You want to talk with her in private later, about today and what you couldn't get to last night.

I can agree with this! Very much.

-[] Hijiri:
--[] Talk, even if she's silent.
--[] Update her on Anri: Both her situation and her (unacceptable) actions.
--[] You know the truth, and Anri was wrong. You'd rather talk in person. Telepathy is... insecure.
--[] Offer to cleanse her if she needs it, whenever or wherever she needs it.
I would expect backlash from this...

Maybe if we could add something...

-[ ] Update her on Anri. Emphasize Anri's mad plans and KB's manipulation of her. (?)
-[?] It wasn't easy, but we convinced the Pleiades to try and talk, rather than seeking revenge on her.
-[ ] You can't talk about some things over telepathy.
--[ ] Offer to meet in person for talking/cleansing, whenever she wants. If she needs it, promise there'll be no hooks attached.

Because I highly doubt Hijiri will agree to meet up without at least a promise we won't drag her back to the Pleiades. I doubt she'd trust that promise, or that she'd want to talk at all, but still...
 
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[] Niko
- [] Thank her, but refuse. You will consider it if Airi refuses to cooperate or harms someone, but there is no call for such thing now.
[] Wrap up and leave.
-[] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[] Hugs.
[] On the way back
-[] Talk to...
--[] Mami
---[Q] Grief Chocolate, your new idea.
---[Q] She's a delinquent now.
---[Q] Do voteboxes count towards word limit or not?
---[] Small talk.
-[] Tell Homura about Oriko and Kirika being helpful
--[] Carefully
I'm gonna have to rearrange and edit this a little.

[] Niko
- [] Thank her, but refuse. You will consider it if Airi refuses to cooperate or harms someone, but there is no call for such thing now.
[] Wrap up and leave.
-[] Try and acknowledge everyone's efforts.
-[] Hugs.
[] On the way back
-[] Talk to...
--[] Mami
---[Q] REAL TALK:
----[Q] Grief Chocolate, your new idea.
----[Q] She's a delinquent now.
----[Q] Do voteboxes count towards word limit or not?
-[] Tell Homura about Oriko and Kirika being helpful
--[] Efficiently.

:V

Now, real real talk, what SWB said. Niko's trying to do something, so rather than refusing her out of hand, we should be tactful and mention the ways her idea could work, and how we could try to implement it (offer it to Anri) before shutting it down.
 
Following an argument on discord I'm really depressed and don't know whether I can continue contributing to the quest. I'm not outright saying I'm leaving or anything - just I don't know.

After the argument I left the discord, although I regretted it like an hour later and tried to rejoin so either the link on the first page has expired or Sabrina banned me from the discord, I dunno because discord won't tell me.

Part of the reason I like PMAS is because I find that a lot of other protagonists much harder to connect to. So any indication that Sabrina may be being directed down a path I disagree with is painful because my list of alternatives is very short. Which is painful because I'm not really sure where I'm going with my life or what future paths could lead me to being happy. I just feel tired and unmotivated all the time and I worry that I'm already becoming burnt out on the only things I could ever enjoy career-wise. So losing even a small thing like that could have a significant effect on me.

So yeah I'm not in a good way right now and without having access to the discord to actually discuss the quest and convince people I'm not sure how I can meaningfully contributed. I don't think any of the votes I crafted won anyway.

Regards,
Blast Flame
 
@The Narrator , Thank you for contributing re: Hijiri. Could I ask you to try it from the more abstract view, as stated?
This is an attempt to get us to debate -just- the goal over time regarding Hijiri. If we are all pursuing different goals, it would be more convenient to enumerate them beforehand?
So, please imagine the result you intend, over hours and days and weeks?
Updating Hijiri on Anri and re-offering cleansing I can see, though I doubt how much they'd help.

'Correcting stupid misconceptions'... Well, no clue how to get there. Hijiri's hasn't exactly been arguing honestly with us.
The reason to inform Hijiri of how her accomplice almost killed a building full of people is to make her realize that her little supervillain cosplay has real consequences. If she's not so far gone into crazytown that human life no longer means anything to her (because she was party to a fuckton of attempted murders in PMKM) then hopefully that will make her rethink the path that she's on.

(At some point we might want to ask about her family and what they think happened to their daughter.)

The reason to tell Hijiri what's going to happen to Anri is so that she doesn't just start imagining that we've done a bunch of unethical things to her, and to preempt Kyubey before he gets the chance to spin whatever we have done in a misleading way.

Offering cleansing is just a given, because unless she steals territory or seeds from other magical girls--or worse--eventually she is going to get desperate. We can at least give her an alternative.

Correcting stupid misconceptions... well, that's tricky, but we can at least let her know that we've talked to Anri and she had some really bizarre delusions that we know are impossible. We could include that when we explain that we've come to terms with Anri. If she was buying into Anri's beliefs, then it might make her question what she actually knows.
 
So, an important question that doesn't seem to have been considered: What are we doing with Anri on the way back to Mitakihara, and until we actually successfully hire minders?
On the topic of bringing Anri back with us safely... I don't think we should have much trouble.

With her being anti magicked...

Oh hey, this thing.

Before leaving:
[ ] Ask Niko if she could develop security measures for prisoners.

Anyway, with Anri being antimagicked, we should be fine. If necessary, we can carry her outside the MoF, make her her very own special MoF tagalong.

If somehow it becomes necessary, we can even de-Gem her for the duration of the trip, though I can't see how it'd come down to that. Point is, this shouldn't be a problem.

By the way, should we improvise a better antimagic, in-flight? We could grab some scrap metal, mould it into shape, and ask Kirika to enchant it.

In the near future, we want something made out of, like, graphene, and it should have parts, rather than being a whole thing, so we could have the Anti Magic enchantment being on the inside of the Anti Magic... Bracelet? (Point would be that Anri couldn't apply Anti Magic to someone else by touching them with the Anti Magic thing).

Mmm... Once we get back... I guess Anri will have to tag along with us. If we were to drop Anri at Fukushima, rather than bring some Fukushimas over here for guarding purposes, we'd have to develop the better Anti Magic Bracelet first, before leaving.
 
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