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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Simon_Jester said:
One of their most powerful combat assets consists of giant biomonsters that specialize in close quarters combat. Biomonsters that are vulnerable to long-range antitank fire when moving in the open. A vehicle that can deliver such things into close quarters with the enemy without ever being exposed to the aforesaid antitank weapons is an obvious force multiplier for the Indian Nod faction.
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This does make sense, considering their apparent vulnerability to anything larger than a GD2.

Karugus said:
The other thing is, the nature of how we deploy Firestorms has probably changed from 'we need to be able to fortify an entire Blue Zone's borders with these things' to 'time to harden our arcologies and vital facilities further'. We've increasingly got compact civilian infrastructure that is both easier to fortify, and a more appealing target. To say nothing of the simple desire to avoid a repeat of the last time our nifty space station got blasted.
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Firestorm barriers would likely help mitigate a hypothetical masterstroke or even prevent it. However, energy weapons, such as an Obelisk's laser, can apparently pass through them, and Nod's acquisition of a fusion peaker plant makes me think a masterstroke, especially one aimed at our orbital stations, will likely use an energy weapon. (InOps apparently concurs).
 
Calvin said:
This does make sense, considering their apparent vulnerability to anything larger than a GD2.
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I mean, they can probably soak up more fire from small-caliber railgun fire or tactical lasers or light missile payloads than anyone would think possible just from looking at them. Don't get me wrong.

But these are some big fuckers as I understand it, and they'd draw a lot of heavy weapons fire advancing through open terrain, and they're not smart enough to take cover or use concealment very effectively as far as I can tell, and there are limits to all things.

GDI excels at laying down massed fire from giant-ass walls of guns, so challenging our frontline forces in terrain clear enough to permit such massed fire... It's just not a smart way for Nod to directly contest us with these biomonsters if they can help it. They'd be taking their strength and putting it directly against our greatest strength, not against our weaknesses.

I get the sense that Gideon ran into this problem at Chicago, where he was able to deploy biomonsters. No time to go back and review right now, but it seems like he ran into trouble in part because he didn't have a good way to get them into our defenses. Krukov seems to have solved that problem, which doesn't make the biomonsters unbeatable but does make them considerably more effective.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I mean, they can probably soak up more fire from small-caliber railgun fire or tactical lasers or light missile payloads than anyone would think possible just from looking at them. Don't get me wrong.

But these are some big fuckers as I understand it, and they'd draw a lot of heavy weapons fire advancing through open terrain, and they're not smart enough to take cover or use concealment very effectively as far as I can tell, and there are limits to all things.

GDI excels at laying down massed fire from giant-ass walls of guns, so challenging our frontline forces in terrain clear enough to permit such massed fire... It's just not a smart way for Nod to directly contest us with these biomonsters if they can help it. They'd be taking their strength and putting it directly against our greatest strength, not against our weaknesses.

I get the sense that Gideon ran into this problem at Chicago, where he was able to deploy biomonsters. No time to go back and review right now, but it seems like he ran into trouble in part because he didn't have a good way to get them into our defenses. Krukov seems to have solved that problem, which doesn't make the biomonsters unbeatable but does make them considerably more effective.
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Bintang has also deployed Gana, which were neutralized by troops in Zone Armor. Hers were more squid-like and optimized for boarding ships. I remember Ithillid saying troops in Zone Armor consistently outclass Gana. Not sure how much the first set of Zone Armor factories would do to alleviate Gana assaults on rear-line units, considering they'll only be able to outfit the "very tip of the spear." Perhaps the GD-3 would be a better option.
 
AntiSanity said:
According to canon lore, around the start of Tiberium Wars/TibWar3 underground Tib veins started to make on-demand vehicle tunneling dangerous because of unpredictable veins. Such as hitting a Tib vein and setting an explosion off or some other geological instabilities. Nod then abandoned repeated-use tunneling vehicles. (Note that this wasn't a problem for underground structures though, Nod could take time and dig for subterranean structures and keep them safe with regular Tib prevention maintenance.)
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There are no citations on this. Random unsourced wiki entries is not a first priority source for canon. For example; It might say -on the wiki- that Tib War 1 started in 1997, most of the actual dates given in manuals of spinoff games say 2019 e.g; Renegade and a single snippet in the C&C3 Information Database. Thich is lampshaded in the wiki, but it never explains why it still uses the date either. The date is mostly used because of a Developer Interview with a Tib Sun Developer. Even in the Tiberian Wars Developer Interviews preserved on the site that take the time to explain why they decided to change the Technology that both Factions use by 2047, none of this is ever mentioned.

EDIT. I should add that the Wiki's interpretation of why NOD depreciated it's underground tunneling technology is basically the same as my Head Canon on the subject however.
 
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Calvin said:
Bintang has also deployed Gana, which were neutralized by troops in Zone Armor. Hers were more squid-like and optimized for boarding ships. I remember Ithillid saying troops in Zone Armor consistently outclass Gana. Not sure how much the first set of Zone Armor factories would do to alleviate Gana assaults on rear-line units, considering they'll only be able to outfit the "very tip of the spear." Perhaps the GD-3 would be a better option.
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The existing zone armour factories will eventually lead to a more general rollout of ZA across GDI forces, including security units in rear positions, by either the latter portion of phase 2 or in phase 3. I have a feeling it'll go; tip of the spear, general combat units then rear-line and reserve with each phase taking more factories than the last and possibly even adding a factory or 2 the more our forces expand. So for the first 2 phases at least we won't see our rear-line troops able to get their hands on zone armour, less will get past the frontlines as we deploy more suits for the army to use. Hell, the Talons will probably be in line for some too.

As for the GD-3, it seems to just be a refinement on the GD-2 using lessons learned during TW3 and by WoG here and on the Discord when people have asked, we won't be seeing any great leaps in the actual quality of our infantry rifles until the GD-4, 5, etc. What this is mainly for by WoG and its description is for giving the Home Guard and other units the GDI equivalent of an M16, something that can be reliably kept in service for a few decades at least with minimal changes while remaining an effective weapon.
 
Calvin said:
Bintang has also deployed Gana, which were neutralized by troops in Zone Armor. Hers were more squid-like and optimized for boarding ships. I remember Ithillid saying troops in Zone Armor consistently outclass Gana.
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Yes, although troops in Zone Armor also consistently outclass Nod light armored vehicles, so I'm not sure that's saying very much. :p

Not sure how much the first set of Zone Armor factories would do to alleviate Gana assaults on rear-line units, considering they'll only be able to outfit the "very tip of the spear." Perhaps the GD-3 would be a better option.
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I think the GD-3 is something we should roll out; I really wish I could shake loose dice for it in 2059Q3, and honestly I consider it a high enough priority that I'm considering taking yet another die off OSRCT. Because rifle factory deployment dice are likely to be a good cheap-per-die option to take with our Philadelphia dice glut and Resource scarcity, and because in the coming war we're likely to see a lot of biomonsters deployed all at once in many places, so having something to counter them will really help.

Alo357 said:
The existing zone armour factories will eventually lead to a more general rollout of ZA across GDI forces, including security units in rear positions...
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Well yeah, but realistically it's going to be a year or more before we can build that many zone armor factories. The question is whether we can accomplish something with a stopgap measure because we anticipate being attacked heavily by Nod. Even if the Great Warlord Dogpile doesn't really start to pile on in 2059Q3 or Q4, we're planning the Karachi Sprint in 2060 and that will directly provoke the Indian warlord who's probably creating all these biomonsters to begin with.

So we don't just need a "we'll eventually find a solution" solution, we need a stopgap measure that will make the biomonsters a bit less of an overwhelming threat to our rear echelons now or as soon as possible.

As for the GD-3, it seems to just be a refinement on the GD-2 using lessons learned during TW3 and by WoG here and on the Discord when people have asked, we won't be seeing any great leaps in the actual quality of our infantry rifles until the GD-4, 5, etc. What this is mainly for by WoG and its description is for giving the Home Guard and other units the GDI equivalent of an M16, something that can be reliably kept in service for a few decades at least with minimal changes while remaining an effective weapon.
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It's not a huge leap, but given that it's being designed now it almost has to be getting designed with an eye to the ability of GDI infantry to defend themselves against biomonsters.

A rifle designed to fight those things, or some type of ammunition specifically intended for hurting those things in a standard rifle, is still an improvement even if you can't get a vast improvement without major steps forward in energy weapon design.
 
Simon_Jester said:
GDI excels at laying down massed fire from giant-ass walls of guns, so challenging our frontline forces in terrain clear enough to permit such massed fire... It's just not a smart way for Nod to directly contest us with these biomonsters if they can help it. They'd be taking their strength and putting it directly against our greatest strength, not against our weaknesses.
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What kind of worries me is we don't know how many of these things there are. For all we know? They may basically use these as infantry units. In which case massed fire on a target maybe relative.
 
TheFourthman said:
What kind of worries me is we don't know how many of these things there are. For all we know? They may basically use these as infantry units. In which case massed fire on a target maybe relative.
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They'd still fair badly to our massed howitzers, air support, and simply grinding them underneath the treads of our tanks. They're lethal against infantry, but relatively squishy- even in massive formation they wouldn't hold up well. Rotary rail guns, alternative rail gun ammo, high explosives, armored superiority- these all account for a lot of sins.
 
Gana should be considered generally cost effective for Nod to field as front line infantry. They're not as nasty as, say, a bunch of Black Hand showing up in power armour, but they're also a lot more numerous. However, because they should in general be considered a particular type of front line infantry, they also fare as well as front line infantry does when they run into a prepared defensive position without proper support.

That is to say, poorly.

Nod doesn't care however, because the job of the Gana biocybernetic constructs isn't to be the elite infantry of Nod. Nod literally has people for that job. Gana are a group of cheap ass bodies to be thrown at GDI's defenses to either find a weakness through sheer bulk, or keep GDI too busy to catch onto Nod's actual objectives in time.
 
What it comes down to is that regardless of how the biomonsters are deployed,* if they come at us in the open they're pitting their relative weaknesses (lack of long range precision heavy firepower, susceptibility to heavy weapons, not being smart enough to use concealment and cover well) against our relative strengths (the wall of guns).

No matter how many of them there are, I'd rather fight it out with them in the open than in enclosed spaces, which would pit their strengths against at best our strengths and at worst our weaknesses.
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*(I'm still unclear whether 'Gana' are all biomonsters or a specific type of them)
 
Given the various Nod factions's habit of keeping the best stuff for themselves, the Gana Mk2 is likely to make its first appearance at Karachi (if it exists at all, that is). I'm more worried about what else they might have though. A genuine super-soldier program based on techniques perfected with the Gana? Smarter and/or more controllable monsters designed for other purposes? Actual kaiju-sized Gana? Who knows?
 
DinoHank said:
Given the various Nod factions's habit of keeping the best stuff for themselves, the Gana Mk2 is likely to make its first appearance at Karachi (if it exists at all, that is). I'm more worried about what else they might have though. A genuine super-soldier program based on techniques perfected with the Gana? Smarter and/or more controllable monsters designed for other purposes? Actual kaiju-sized Gana? Who knows?
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I suspect a next-gen supersoldier project that will end up opposed internally by the Black Hand over the impression that they are getting replaced.
 
Simon_Jester said:
*(I'm still unclear whether 'Gana' are all biomonsters or a specific type of them)
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Bit of both, but mostly it's the collective name for all the biomonsters coming out of India, with specific subtypes having names of their own.

That said, Nod appears to be focusing its military towards close range engagements. Not to say they are completely neglecting long range, but between the flamers of the Black Hand, the apparent focus on close fighting from the Efanc (crocodile Gana) and Takko (the squid Gana we were engaged by during the battle with Bintang's forces in SEA) and Krukov's deployment of digging APCs loaded with Gana. Well, it has implications on where they expect the decisive battles to be fought when it comes to infantry.
 
Honestly, when we saw those creations I got a feeling Nod is going to eventually start creating or recreating other organisms and use cybernetics to control them like with the crocodiles and other currently non existent strains of tiberium creatures. Possible candidates for recreation are tiberium fiends which were hilariously deadly compared to the Gana , floaters or creating Kaiju tiberium Bioconstructs which could destroy armies like the gigantic viscoroids in the second tib war or other constructs with different capabilities. .As For super soldier programs from Nod, it is very possible they could do it as they created Super soldiers in Renegade during the first war with Project Regenesis which was stopped by Havok. While he stopped it, Nod was able to save the data and still work upon it as for example the tiberium infusion was based upon the data they got and refined from the project. Unknown why they currently are not able to create the Super soldiers as they saved the data for the project from Havok but could be because of tiberium changing, they had to somewhat redo the project as tiberium"s properties changed drastically.
 
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TheFourthman said:
Most likely you saw this tech at work with Cyborgs in TW2 and the Marked.
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True, Could be that they used the tech with the cyborgs, did not think off that as the Supersoldier"s you faced in Renegade from Project Regenesis were not only strong but also were really fast like Dr Protrovo and the other giant mutated Nod Commander. Potential reasoning for cyborgs being slow could be the extreme amount of armor they are wearing along with the heavy cybernetics but that is not mentioned.
 
The thing about the mutants they are making is that they have to be controlled by stuff and considering nods past I wonder how many of them they lose control of or even get lose and go wild considering that they are a bunch of animals glued stapled and duct taped together? not even talking about the experiments they considered failures and "flushed" but survived?
 
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Dheer said:
Honestly, when we saw those creations I got a feeling Nod is going to eventually start creating or recreating other organisms and use cybernetics to control them like with the crocodiles and other currently non existent strains of tiberium creatures. Possible candidates for recreation are tiberium fiends which were hilariously deadly compared to the Gana , floaters or creating Kaiju tiberium Bioconstructs which could destroy armies like the gigantic viscoroids in the second tib war or other constructs with different capabilities.
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De-extinction - and, perhaps, further modifiication - of TW2-era Tiberium life might make sense. Nod did use chemical weapons based on the "veins" of a Veinhole, so there's some precedent for them working with Tiberium life.
Manowl said:
The thing about the mutants they are making is that they have to be controlled by stuff and considering nods past I wonder how many of them they lose control of or even go out and go wild considering that they are a bunch of animals glued stapled and duct taped together? not even talking about the experiments they considered failures and "flushed" but survived?
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Perhaps they have "killswitches" engineered into them?
 
Calvin said:
De-extinction - and, perhaps, further modifiication - of TW2-era Tiberium life might make sense. Nod did use chemical weapons based on the "veins" of a Veinhole, so there's some precedent for them working with Tiberium life.

Perhaps they have "killswitches" engineered into them?
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Well they could not work as well since again nod is not exactly known for quality control and trying to Mass produce mutants requires a production line that just adds more chances for errors and mistakes right?
 
Calvin said:
Perhaps they have "killswitches" engineered into them?
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Do they even need kill switches? There's no ecosystem left to disrupt.

If they do need a killswitch...maybe engineer in a need for an artificial amino acid they can't produce on their own, where a deficiency results in rapid organ failure and death within a few weeks.

EDIT:Though, really, if you need killswitches, you need at least two or three. Stick a bomb in there too.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
...What evidence do you have that GDI didn't have elections before the Third Tiberium War? Your concept of a 'panopticon' seems to revolve around the government having unlimited surveillance capacity and being unaccountable to the masses, but then what makes you think GDI was ever that second part?

I don't think the phenomenon of the masses being able to communicate with the government and be heard is new.
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o_O I just...there is a communication disconnect here and I have no idea where.

I did not say that GDI doesn't or didn't have elections.

I'm sorry I'm so soaked in cyberpunk in general that I just assumed that the rest of this thread was as well.

Alright from the top the various series in Command and Conquer are:

- Dune 2 is the grandfather of Real Time Strategies.

- Dune 2000 and Emperor: Battle for Dune are RTS Feudal Space Operas.

- The Tiberium Dawn/Sun/Wars/Twilight are RTS Cyberpunk (Dark Angel not Neuromancer).

- Red Alerts are RTS Bond Films.

- Generals are Tom Clancy RTS.

The Panopticon is about a rampaging Military-Industrial Complex having a surveillance arm that is so all encompassing that the very concept of voting is pointless. Not non-existent, just pointless. Both GDI and NOD are military-industrial complexes not states in the games.

GDI grew an actual state in the aftermath of the Third Tiberium War because we chose to develop it that way while rebuilding it. While GDI was slowly developing towards being an actual state before Tib War 3 with the destruction of Philadelphia GDI actually lost it's watchtower and with the completion of Philadelphia II it's stepping into being an actual global state.

NOD is still a terrorist military industrial complex. And Kane is still playing the role of it's watchtower now from an impenetrable tower.

Like it's obvious to me because I have consumed a lot various cyberpunk media that one of the (maybe accidental) themes of the Tiberium series of Command and Conquer is the fact that the reliance of Military-Industrial Complexes on Panopticon systems as their centers of control results in them being treated as King pieces in chess and how wrong it is to do that:

- In Tiberium Dawn Kane hacks the Watchtower EVA to perform a false flag ion canon attack on a GDI member state. Instead of breaking GDI as was expected this backfires as GDI hunts Kane down to Temple Prime in Sarajevo and seemingly kills him. This doesn't lead to the breakup of NOD and GDI is forced to instead treat NOD as a peer power and subvert the Brotherhood's leadership trough espionage. Both GDI's and NOD's Watchtowers were taken out of service and instead of resulting in their destruction like what happens in a lot of cyberpunk media (see the Johnny Mnemonic Movie for a bare bulb version of that) the two factions are damaged, but not out of the game with GDI even managing to fully recover theirs by the end of the game.

- In Tiberium Sun Kane comes back and with the aid of Anton Slavik and CABAL retakes NOD and kicks off Tiberium War 2. Kane tries and fails to take out Philadelphia and instead gets himself killed, again, because McNeil was a maverick and disobeyed orders. So GDI has it's watchtower intact this time and NOD has a back up watchtower in the form of CABAL if they can get it out of GDI hands. They do and then CABAL goes nuts/rampant because he got copied badly by Slavik. CABAL pulls a I surrender suckers on GDI while trying to destroy NOD so Slavik hijacks an EVA unit, reforms NOD and works with his GDI counterpart to destroy CABAL by first GDI disabling it's access to resources trough a virus and then terminating it and collecting the assembled Tacitus as a loot drop. This time around both watchtowers were fully in use during the conflict and Kane lost because human watchtowers are not catastrophic failure points, as humans are able to disobey watchtower orders in response to the situation on the ground while his was and nearly took NOD with it before it was destroyed.

- In Tiberium Wars we see that Kane is technically correct in over-focusing his plans on watchtower as he starts the story by taking out GDI's watchtower and deploying a new and improved version of his watchtower: LEGION. And by correct I mean that Kane's obsession with masterstrokes aimed at/directed by watchtowers stems from having experience fighting the Visitors. GDI takes out the Visitors by destroying the relay node at Ground Zero. Philadelphia's destruction wouldn't have damaged GDI if not for Redmond Boyle's actions. In this Kane is shown to have learned from his previous failures and insured that his masterstroke hinged on exploiting GDI's reaction instead of just expecting them to just take it. Kane's watchtower still fails because the person he put in charge of maintaining it was a corrupt fanatic.

- In Tiberium Twilight Kane manages to strike a deal with what's left of GDI's watchtower to kick of the plot. In this case both GDI and NOD watchtowers fail as parts of their populations refuse to follow their own leadership and initiate civil wars over the TCN.

I'm sleepy. Hope I made my point clearly enough. Ask questions/seek clarifications if not. Please. Good night.
 
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