Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

liquidsnake4673 · Oct 13, 2021

Doing the first 2 phases of War Factory Refits this turn would likely increase the number zone suits available to ZOCOM as well as providing a general boost to the military across the board. With Tiberium war 4 on the horizon, I think getting started on those refits would be a really good idea and would only take 2-3 dice at 40-60R, which is doable even under our current resource constraints.

AntiSanity · Oct 13, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
The apartments provide an alternative solution to the actual problem the arcology promise was made to address, and importantly, they are a safety valve. They alleviate immediate public discontent by letting us very rapidly create +6, +12, or even +18 Housing of decent quality to pull people out of the worst of the existing Housing, even as we can simultaneously ramp up arcology construction and put people there too.

So I have three reasons on why the decisions in my draft plan. One is that we made the arcology promise regardless of the actual problem and the actual text is clear. Parliament might be understanding, or they might still get angry about it. The second is that we have significant amounts of resources already invested into this one phase of arcologies, at 409/650, that leaving it undone is (temporarily) unused resources for something we must go back to do anyways. We likely still to need BZ apartments per your safety value example, but we might as well finish what we started in arcologies first. Especially since I don't want any progress degradation.

The third reason is my opinion that the housing problem isn't as serious as you feel. I've seen your arguments, I understand why you made them, but I disagree with the underlying assumptions for those arguments. I also don't agree with your reading of the consequences. But I'm willing to at least finish arcologies to alleviate the potential for problems.

liquidsnake4673 said:
Doing the first 2 phases of War Factory Refits this turn would likely increase the number zone suits available to ZOCOM as well as providing a general boost to the military across the board. With Tiberium war 4 on the horizon, I think getting started on those refits would be a really good idea and would only take 2-3 dice at 40-60R, which is doable even under our current resource constraints.

Would refits benefit zone suits? Didn't zone suits get finished after the capital goods crisis we had? I thought refits were to upgrade the factories we made when we had a large deficit of capital goods and the refits would only benefit those factories.

Shaper47 · Oct 13, 2021

AntiSanity said:
Would refits benefit zone suits? Didn't zone suits get finished after the capital goods crisis we had? I thought refits were to upgrade the factories we made when we had a large deficit of capital goods and the refits would only benefit those factories.

We started making zone suits while we had the capital good crisis. It was so bad a bunch of the factories for the zone suits have us making them by hand.

liquidsnake4673 · Oct 13, 2021

AntiSanity said:
Didn't zone suits get finished after the capital goods crisis we had? I thought refits were to upgrade the factories we made when we had a large deficit of capital goods and the refits would only benefit those factories.

Some were built before and some after, although I think the first phase of refits has been stated not to affect the the factories built during the capital goods crisis. So we'd have to do at least the second phase to get zone suit benefits

Crazycryodude · Oct 13, 2021

The Zone Suit factories we built to supply ZOCOM while we were still in capgoods shortage will get updated and modernized with the general wartime factory refits. It won't have any effect on the larger Ground Forces project, but ZOCOM's suit supply chain will be improved.

Derpmind · Oct 13, 2021

If we want to support ZOCOM, we could also do [ ] Sonic Mobile Artillery Vehicle Development. And given how important ZOCOM is for our income we might want to do the development project as soon as next turn, to then try and push through the project right after.

Also, while I know we want to do Naval PD or Wartime Factory Refits, we shouldn't forget that the Orca Refits are still Very High Priority, and have been sitting around for 1.5 years at this point. It'd be nice to put a die or two on the Orcas so we can get those rolled out sooner rather than never.

marids · Oct 13, 2021

Chimeraguard said:
We've gotten some increasingly alarmed calls from ZOCOM about how they don't think that they can sustain the pushes into the Red Zones we've been making, not without a lot more Zone Armor out on the field to help them cover the necessary ground

What? Since when and where did you get that from?

In fact, by looking at the latest information they gave about their current opinions and status, it looks to me they're more lacking in new operations to do, since they said 'the pace of Red Zone operations have slowed to a near halt', and thus now use their time to do other things due to not being deployed as often as before.

Ithillid said:
Zone Operations Command
With the pace of Red Zone operations having slowed to a near halt, ZOCOM has been prowling the halls of power, pushing both for universal zone armor deployment, and more specialized weapons, such as sonic artillery, that are designed to fight in and make use of a Tiberium infested environment. Widespread deployment of sonic weapons should, in theory, both bring the price of the systems down, and substantially increase the combat power of all involved. With them looking at opening the next plan with a further mass surge of Red Zone expansions, not only in Central Africa, and the Egyptian Red Zone, but around the world, significantly greater support is high on their priority list as GDI heads into the battle over budgeting for the next four years.

I see nothing about them being not able to sustain more pushes, like anywhere. Unless this is yet more Discord stuff we didn't get anyways.

Hell, it's been almost years since ZOCOM was upgraded so much, and yet there was basically one large expansion to grab Red Zone mines, and not much more after that burst of effort. I'd it's about time they finally got to do more work than simply waiting and guarding the existing Tiberium mines.

Edit: If you intend to argue with the lowered confidence levels, then I still don't see that as 'increasingly alarmed calls', and more of them being depressed about not being given more work to do after getting that much funding for a while. Otherwise more Military upgrades should cover that anyways by doing things like the [ ] Sonic Mobile Artillery Vehicle Development.

Void Stalker · Oct 13, 2021

Derpmind said:
Also, while I know we want to do Naval PD or Wartime Factory Refits, we shouldn't forget that the Orca Refits are still Very High Priority, and have been sitting around for 1.5 years at this point. It'd be nice to put a die or two on the Orcas so we can get those rolled out sooner rather than never.

2 or 3, doing the project disrupts the production so we want to try and finish it in one go, but it also is more expensive per dice than the refits. As is it is one of my projects to try and do this year but probably Q3 or Q4.

Chimeraguard · Oct 13, 2021

marids said:
What? Since when and where did you get that from?

Update in discord last night. Gonna ask for permission to post the specific bit.

Simon_Jester · Oct 13, 2021

AntiSanity said:
So I have three reasons on why the decisions in my draft plan. One is that we made the arcology promise regardless of the actual problem and the actual text is clear. Parliament might be understanding, or they might still get angry about it.

Yes, but we promised them three phases in four years, not three phases in two. Slow construction will satisfy them, as long as the voters do not scream too loud. Which they won't, if we're actually addressing the underlying housing crisis.

The second is that we have significant amounts of resources already invested into this one phase of arcologies, at 409/650, that leaving it undone is (temporarily) unused resources for something we must go back to do anyways. We likely still to need BZ apartments per your safety value example, but we might as well finish what we started in arcologies first. Especially since I don't want any progress degradation.

If you look at my plan draft, it slams out a phase of apartments AND puts a die on arcologies, making some measure of progress while avoiding degradation. This positions us to hopefully finish or near-finish the phase in Q3 and definitely have it finished by Q4.

And meanwhile, we're addressing the housing crisis quite effectively by adding at least +14 Housing by Q3 or Q4, whereas it would otherwise be quite difficult for us to reach such a target.

The third reason is my opinion that the housing problem isn't as serious as you feel. I've seen your arguments, I understand why you made them, but I disagree with the underlying assumptions for those arguments. I also don't agree with your reading of the consequences. But I'm willing to at least finish arcologies to alleviate the potential for problems.

Would you mind explaining?

Because it's still a cold, hard fact that our refugees are presented with the choice of living under canvas or in a Yellow Zone bunker-city under sporadic Nod attack, that our commieblock apartments are full up because there are so many people who are just glad to have a roof, and so on.

The multimillion-signature petitions we've heard about don't sound like something one can just "disagree with," either.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Oct 13, 2021

Throwing this at the wall to see if it sticks.

[]Plan Draft Nod Off
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 60R
--[] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2) 409/650 2 dice 30R (median 2/4)
--[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 1) 0/160 3 dice 30R 74%

-[]Heavy Industry 4/5 100R
--[] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 1) 0/160 1 dice 20R (median 1/3)
--[] Automated Civilian Shipyards 0/250 4 dice 80R 65%

-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/4 60R
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 3 dice 60R 75%

-[]Agriculture 3/3 30R
--[] Yellow Zone Purification Facilities (Phase 2) 12/160 3 dice 30R 81%

-[]Tiberium 5/5 + 1 120R
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 1+2) 0/400? 6 dice 120R 80%

-[]Orbital Industry 3/3 30R
--[] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 8+9) 13/180 3 dice 30R+ 70%

-[]Services 3/4 50R
--[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 die 20R 77%
--[] NOD Research Initiatives 100/160 1 die 30R 77%
--[] Security Review 1 die

-[]Military 4/4 + 1 60R
--[] Zone Emergency Medical Evacuation Vehicle Deployment
---[]Sydney 49/80 1 die 10R 96%
--[] Point Defense Refits 15/250 2 dice 20R (median 2/4)
--[] Orca Refit Deployment 0/200 2 dice 30R 7% (median 2/3)

-[]Bureaucracy 3/3
--[] Focus Reallocation
---[]Service -> Military
--[] Private Industrial Automation 1 die auto

510/515R , 2/6 Free Dice, 3/11 Fusion Dice.

Mix of Arcologies and Apartments. Automated Shipyards plus a slow start on Nuuk; even if we don't/can't go further down the Glacier hole we still need seaborne logistics, although I'm open to pivoting fully to Nuuk and Reykjavik. Purification facilities to be followed by further YZ Aquaponics.

Orbital Cleanup: Putting off Philadelphia as we're still a little in the hole and can't make use of the dice it'll provide until our income's up to par. 35-45 R isn't much but it'll give us a little more breathing room.

NOD vs Scrin research: NOD research will be immediately useful come the war; Scrin research, particularly portals, is only really relevant after the war has concluded. If we have to stagger them NOD research should come first.

Military is as cheap as can be gotten away with: Sydney, PD, and Orcas.

Concerning Private Industrial Automation: this is Grants Electric Boogaloo I think; investment in the economy which comes back as taxes.

EDIT: A further refinement which trades in an Orbital Cleanup die for Escort Carrier Development:

[]Plan Draft Definitely At Sea
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 60R
--[] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 2) 409/650 2 dice 30R (median 2/4)
--[] Blue Zone Apartment Complexes (Phase 1) 0/160 3 dice 30R 74%

-[]Heavy Industry 4/5 100R
--[] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 1) 0/160 1 dice 20R (median 1/3)
--[] Automated Civilian Shipyards 0/250 4 dice 80R 65%

-[]Light & Chemical Industry 3/4 60R
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 2) 1/160 3 dice 60R 75%

-[]Agriculture 3/3 30R
--[] Yellow Zone Purification Facilities (Phase 2) 12/160 3 dice 30R 81%

-[]Tiberium 5/5 + 1 120R
--[] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 1+2) 0/400? 6 dice 120R 80%

-[]Orbital Industry 2/3 20R
--[] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 8) 13/180 2 dice 20R+ 91%

-[]Services 3/4 50R
--[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 die 20R 77%
--[] NOD Research Initiatives 100/160 1 die 30R 77%
--[] Security Review 1 die

-[]Military 4/4 + 2 75R
--[] Zone Emergency Medical Evacuation Vehicle Deployment
---[]Sydney 49/80 1 die 10R 96%
--[] Escort Carrier Development 0/40 1 die 15R 92%
--[] Point Defense Refits 15/250 2 dice 20R (median 2/4)
--[] Orca Refit Deployment 0/200 2 dice 30R 7% (median 2/3)

-[]Bureaucracy 3/3
--[] Focus Reallocation
---[]Service -> Military
--[] Private Industrial Automation 1 die auto

515/515R , 3/6 Free Dice, 2/11 Fusion Dice.

AntiSanity · Oct 13, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Yes, but we promised them three phases in four years, not three phases in two. Slow construction will satisfy them, as long as the voters do not scream too loud. Which they won't, if we're actually addressing the underlying housing crisis.

If you look at my plan draft, it slams out a phase of apartments AND puts a die on arcologies, making some measure of progress while avoiding degradation. This positions us to hopefully finish or near-finish the phase in Q3 and definitely have it finished by Q4.[/quote]

And my plan addresses the underlying crisis for the current moment, by finishing high quality arcologies. And the voters are screaming for arcologies, not BZ apartments.

My plan also finishes those arcologies now (97%) and lets you slam those apartments later. This is just an order of operation difference. No messy half completed arcologies while starting a 3 die, 74% completion, apartment.

Simon_Jester said:
And meanwhile, we're addressing the housing crisis quite effectively by adding at least +14 Housing by Q3 or Q4, whereas it would otherwise be quite difficult for us to reach such a target.

Because it's still a cold, hard fact that our refugees are presented with the choice of living under canvas or in a Yellow Zone bunker-city under sporadic Nod attack, that our commieblock apartments are full up because there are so many people who are just glad to have a roof, and so on.

The multimillion-signature petitions we've heard about don't sound like something one can just "disagree with," either.

Finish reading the quote from 2057 turns result post. "...with petitions millions of signatures long for not only the completion of existing arcologies, but a broad spread" They want arcologies, not apartments. They've got theirs eyes set on gleaming towers and planned living spaces. Even if the apartments are good quality housing, those people have their eyes set on a specific type of housing. People can be fickle. If you deny them what they promise with something not as great, they'll balk at it. Even if apartments are good quality, they aren't as good as arcologies.

Simon_Jester · Oct 13, 2021

AntiSanity said:
And my plan addresses the underlying crisis for the current moment, by finishing high quality arcologies. And the voters are screaming for arcologies, not BZ apartments...

Finish reading the quote from 2057 turns result post. "...with petitions millions of signatures long for not only the completion of existing arcologies, but a broad spread" They want arcologies, not apartments. They've got theirs eyes set on gleaming towers and planned living spaces. Even if the apartments are good quality housing, those people have their eyes set on a specific type of housing. People can be fickle. If you deny them what they promise with something not as great, they'll balk at it. Even if apartments are good quality, they aren't as good as arcologies.

I think you're relying too heavily on your ability to read the room.

The underlying reality isn't just "they want arcologies," it's "the housing situation in GDI is terrible." Like, really bad. Almost no unoccupied housing anywhere in the Blue Zones, and none fit for habitation in the Yellow Zones. Do people want to live in arcologies? Yes. Do people want to live somewhere that isn't shit? Yes. Do they want to live somewhere that isn't shit more than they want to be on the waiting list to get into an arcology eventually? Probably.

My plan also finishes those arcologies now (97%) and lets you slam those apartments later. This is just an order of operation difference. No messy half completed arcologies while starting a 3 die, 74% completion, apartment.

Except that your plan sacrifices doing any railroad construction to achieve that result. It's not just a 'neat' result, it compromises our ability to add Logistics quickly.

[Also, I spend four dice on the apartments, getting a 95% chance of completion. One on arcologies, and I believe three (free dice) on railroads].

Rakuhn · Oct 13, 2021

The only real difference between whether we do apartments or acologies for this round is the time value of the dice cost. Considering that we are going to have more resources next turn, going for apartments this round will let us activate more total dice between the two turns than if we do arcologies this round.

AntiSanity · Oct 13, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
I think you're relying too heavily on your ability to read the room.

I think the same of you for this topic actually.

While my plan does not set up railroads, in exchange it does three things:
-Set up Nod research for the next turn
-Set up Scrin research for the turn after next
-Pre-emptively deal with the labour shortage with YZ qualifications initiative

The railways and other logistical concerns can be resolved next turn, with the increased RpT and free dice. While setting up Nod and Scrin research. Research that needs to be done early and shouldn't be left until later, with the immediate housing need still resolved. Also deals with the labour issue right away.

I really think research needs to be done early for the potential of game changing technologies like the Tib Stabilizer was and not left until later where the potential gains are less rewarding.

TheFourthman · Oct 13, 2021

RCNAnon said:
The frigates are just an all around good idea. Even for an offensive navy you still need escorts to defend the convoys supplying them. If we do want to go in the offensive the others are great but I'm not sure I support them this four year period.

I think we should build them Shark, Victory then Island.

The Shark and Victory give us force protection which lets us keep our capital ships and cruisers in the fight. Or maybe instead of going full bore into one class as we've been doing. We could rotate deployment of them to have token numbers of each.

Vehrec said:
Oh, and a little tiny spoiler. Seo isn't proposing relocating our nukes to orbital caches out of the goodness of his heart. Our Science Boy is gonna optimize GDI's nuclear arsenal if he can. What, per say, that entails is unclear, but it's definitely gonna be one of those -PS options, and centralizing the stockpile is the stalking horse he's using to get a chance to make his own nukes with all the bells and whistles

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of expanding nukes. I kind of preferred not expanding traditional nukes and just working on energy weapons.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Oct 13, 2021

Simon_Jester said:
Except that your plan sacrifices doing any railroad construction to achieve that result. It's not just a 'neat' result, it compromises our ability to add Logistics quickly.

[Also, I spend four dice on the apartments, getting a 95% chance of completion. One on arcologies, and I believe three (free dice) on railroads].

I'll point out that if you want logistics quickly, Automated Civilian Shipyards gives +9 Logistics for median cost 80R.

Whereas Railroads Phases 2+3 gives +8 Logistics for median cost 135R.

What you want is Logistics quickly without spending Cap Goods or Energy, for which yes Railroads are best. Second best might be Automated Civilian Shipyards + Spider Cotton Plantations 1, which is combined median 125R and -4 Energy, followed by Automated Civilian Shipyards + Reykjavik for combined 140R and -4 Energy but also spools up Reykjavik which we want to get up to Phase 2 before war's start.

Ithillid · Oct 13, 2021

marids said:
Unless this is yet more Discord stuff we didn't get anyways.

This is Discord stuff that I was going to be sharing with everyone in a few days. I test things and get things beta red there to ensure that the right message gets through. In this case, it did not quite get through.

Basically, the situation with ZOCOM right now is that it is starting to feel some strain, but it is pretty far from critical. It still has five to seven glacier mines, or a couple of phases of major planned city projects left in it before it starts cutting into the reserve units and QRFs. The thing is that they are starting to send up warnings now, because you can blow through that buffer in six to nine months, and you have commitments to do massive resource gathering events, and they expect you to be leading heavily on them for that task.

BoSPaladin · Oct 13, 2021

It's stuff that we will be told in the update basically.

Discord is just helping with some spellcheck and feedback prior to polished finished update being released in all it's glory.

Chimeraguard · Oct 13, 2021

In that case, I can swap my plan over to something that still continues the Red Zone pushes. Though, still want to keep up the stuff that has us building up towards being able to push out Zone Armor factories like Johannesburg, so that we can bulk them up when the time comes.

Though, on the other hand, I do actually like the current plan that does Vein Mines just because of how low cost-per-die they are while still being pretty good income, which let me push out a lot of other stuff to...

marids · Oct 13, 2021

Ithillid said:
Basically, the situation with ZOCOM right now is that it is starting to feel some strain, but it is pretty far from critical. It still has five to seven glacier mines, or a couple of phases of major planned city projects left in it before it starts cutting into the reserve units and QRFs. The thing is that they are starting to send up warnings now, because you can blow through that buffer in six to nine months, and you have commitments to do massive resource gathering events, and they expect you to be leading heavily on them for that task.

Alrighty then.

That means doing a few more Glaciers right now is fine, and further plans for the foreseeable future probably won't be cutting into the reserves for a while due to how I don't see people voting for any more than maybe 2 more Glaciers before doing more upgrades for ZOCOM first.

Speaking of which, ZOCOM upgrades Really needs to be prioritized if this is the case. Because no Military department should be more important than the one that's responsible for guarding and securing more Tiberium mines, and apparently expanding Planned Cities too, which wasn't a duty I was aware that they were also a part of.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Oct 13, 2021

Chimeraguard said:
Though, on the other hand, I do actually like the current plan that does Vein Mines just because of how low cost-per-die they are while still being pretty good income, which let me push out a lot of other stuff to...

Eh, it's not as economical as it looks compared to Glaciers.

Vein Mines, for 120R, are an 80% to complete at 40-60 income, and take Capital Goods. Whereas glaciers for the same cost are +99% and take Logistics instead.

The main benefit for Vein Mines is we don't further strain ZOCOM and it synergies better with a Capital Goods full press.

Ithillid · Oct 13, 2021

marids said:
apparently expanding Planned Cities too, which wasn't a duty I was aware that they were also a part of.

There were ZOCOM units at the Battle of Chicago, and one of them gave a Black Hand Chapter a very, very bloody nose. Partially this is because Planned Cities are often deep in the Yellow Zones, partially it is because there are few forces better at high intensity urban conflict than heavily armored railguns and sonics with jet packs, partially it is because ZOCOM units hit well beyond their weight.
Everyone takes a part, but ZOCOM is definitely there.

trooperist · Oct 13, 2021

Ithillid said:
There were ZOCOM units at the Battle of Chicago, and one of them gave a Black Hand Chapter a very, very bloody nose. Partially this is because Planned Cities are often deep in the Yellow Zones, partially it is because there are few forces better at high intensity urban conflict than heavily armored railguns and sonics with jet packs, partially it is because ZOCOM units hit well beyond their weight.
Everyone takes a part, but ZOCOM is definitely there.

Zone troopers were some of my favorite units to use in C&C3 given how they tore through just about anything. They really do punch well above their weight and value.

Until a Black Hand unit gets too close. Or a Shadow team surprises them. Or they run into a Venom gunship. Stupid anti-infantry counters.

Derpmind · Oct 13, 2021

Do we really want to do the Ground Forces Zone Armor before we do Wartime Factory Refits? We only have so many Capital Goods to go around at any one time, and the wartime factories will hardly be up to the job for when the 4th war hits. And we'll have no choice but to rely upon those 8+ year old factories if we keep spreading out our Capital Goods among a dozen other projects.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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The Paladin

We do deserve to exist.

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