Nod is always going to slip in between the cracks. I mean if we had taken naval options? They'd be hitting us some other way. There's no way to stop one of their out of nowhere blows they love so much. But MARVs? MARVs complicate their lives. It's something Nod has to either address or bypass. And slow as they maybe? Once one takes the field? Nod can either slink off or fight a monster.
We should just make MARVs float instead of building ships. Give MARVs wings and a fusion engine instead of building more aircraft. And why make an Orbital Strike Team when we could instead have an Orbital Strike MARV? :thonk:
 
I think where people might see a knee jerk is a combo of 1) dumping all free dice into tiberium and 2) going for BZ fencing as opposed to more YZ harvesting (though I understand that is due to YZ harvesting costing more per dice meaning shifting the fencing dice to harvesting would mean dropping more dice elsewhere and we are still juggling multiple plates at this point).
Beyond the fact that it's resource-cheaper which is an important concern while our income is still not enough to activate all our dice (and the 5-10 from an extra stage of YZ harvesting instead would not meaningfully change that fact),
Actually, BZ fencing isn't even that much cheaper, due to the higher amount of progress required, as more dice are needed overall;
BZ fencing requires 400 progress/phase at 15R/die, which translates to ~5 dice/75R in total.
YZ harvesting requires 300 progress/phase at 20R/die, translating to ~4 dice/80R total.
That's a mere 5R difference, which would immediately be made up by the first turn the YZ harvesting operation is active, after which it begins to generate a profit.

With the expected income increases we should be doing 1 or 2 orbital dice next turn and dropping 10 off of all projects makes some of the smaller ones quick to finish. And as mentioned it would also mean dropping a security review and after this turn I doubt we will be able to fit more than 1 in most turns (there might be times we can get 2 but that is tough as we should have fewer idle dice). And we have seen in the past the problems that can pop up in departments so clearing more trouble out makes things easier for us long turn.

For example 2 dice on orbital comms next turn would help improve our ability to respond to situation or 1 dice on cleanup (with needing 90 vs 100) will open new projects in space, if those include more spy sats and other ones that can help us track down NOD that is a big gain. Basically despite neglecting space, shuttle bay is a fairly essential action to take since that -10 adds up quickly
As a counterpoint; completing the SMARV provides an income of 25RpT, which is enough to pay for 1-2 orbital dice on its own (depending on the project in question). Considering that the main reason we can't make full use of our orbital dice is due to resource constraints, it'd arguably more useful for efforts in space than the shuttle bay with its comparatively minor bonus to completion-speed for space projects.
 
We should just make MARVs float instead of building ships. Give MARVs wings and a fusion engine instead of building more aircraft. And why make an Orbital Strike Team when we could instead have an Orbital Strike MARV? :thonk:
You joke but a specially designed vehicle to be deployed via orbital drops.... and I expect we will have to make a variant of Zone Suits that can be used by Orbital Strike Teams.
 
As a counterpoint; completing the SMARV provides an income of 25RpT, which is enough to pay for 1-2 orbital dice on its own (depending on the project in question). Considering that the main reason we can't make full use of our orbital dice is due to resource constraints, it'd arguably more useful for efforts in space than the shuttle bay with its comparatively minor bonus to completion-speed for space projects.
The shuttles are worth more the sooner we get them. And I think I remember Ithillid saying that for instance with one of the space station (phase 2) it would be -20 instead of -10. It will have easily paid for itself, if not twice over by the end of plan.
 
Actually, BZ fencing isn't even that much cheaper, due to the higher amount of progress required, as more dice are needed overall;
BZ fencing requires 400 progress/phase at 15R/die, which translates to ~5 dice/75R in total.
YZ harvesting requires 300 progress/phase at 20R/die, translating to ~4 dice/80R total.
That's a mere 5R difference, which would immediately be made up by the first turn the YZ harvesting operation is active, after which it begins to generate a profit.

That's in a vacuum and not accounting for the hidden synergistic bonus abatement, but also not what's being voted on this actual plan. 4 fencing dice upgraded to 4 YZ harvesting dice would cost an additional 20R (and what should I cut to find those exactly?), for a 76% chance of getting an additional 5-10R one turn earlier than if we put those extra 4 dice on YZ harvesting next turn instead. Spending 20R to get a max of 10 a turn early is a net -10 if pure monetary efficiency is what you're worried about.

We're probably NOT going to put those 4 dice into YZ harvesting next turn though, because YZ harvesting is terrible at making money and those same 4 dice would be better put into Red Zone mining or glaciers if we want money. Point efficiency is not the problem in Tiberium that's the entire reason to put 10 dice into the sector with a massive bonus, we're swimming in points, resource efficiency is what matters.
 
Last edited:
Dice efficiency also comes into play. Crazycryodude already has all the free dice in tib, so he cant go to 5 bz fencing without cutting other tib dice at which point total resource you are looking at 4 in fencing vs 3 in YZ harvest. Though I would not say resource efficiency is our only concern since dice per cat and the need to have some projects done before others add more limits to work around.
 
How was there 6 pages of posts overnight??? :cry:

Hrm. Both leading plans got nearly identical scores with regards to my priorities.
However, this one is a touch ahead as far as doing what I think we should do:

[X] Plan Housing, Red Zone and Consumer Goods
 
[X] Plan Derpmind's Terrible No Good Compromise Plan
-[X] Heavy Industry 5/5 dice 50R
--[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 1) 18/500 2 dice 20R 0%
--[X] Heavy Rolling Stock Plants 0/250 3 dice 30R 23%
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry 3/3 dice 40R
--[X] Civil Clothing Factories 150/200 1 die 10R 78%
--[X] Edinburgh Electric Motor Plant 0/125 2 dice 30R 64%
-[X] Agriculture 2/3 dice 20R
--[X] Yellow Zone Aquaponics Bays (phase 3) 15/80 1 die 10R 63%
--[X] Organic textiles farms 0/100 1 die 10R 28%
-[X] Tiberium 5/5 + 4 Free 190R
--[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 4) 49/300 7 dice 140R 99% (64% Phase 5 if also a 0/300 project)
--[X] Red Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 7) 35/130 2 dice 50R 98%
-[X] Orbital Industry 2/3 dice 20R
--[X] Orbital Shuttle Bays 0/70 1 die 20R 58%
--[X] Security Review
-[X] Services 4/4 20R
--[X] Childcare and Preschool programs 0/230 2 dice 10R 8%
--[X] Multi Use Stadium Program 0/100 1 die 10R 28%
--[X] Security Review
-[X] Military 5/5 dice 80R
--[X] Red-1 North Super MARV Fleet 3 dice 60R 45%
--[X] Hydrofoil Shipyards (Copenhagen) 0/100 2 dice 20R 82%
-[X] Bureaucracy 3/3 + 1 Free dice
--[X] Security Reviews Orbital Industry DC60 2 dice 98%
--[X] Security Reviews Services DC60 2 dice 98%

Total cost: 420/420R

Since the leading plans are so close to each other, I decided to smash them together! 9 dice in Tiberium! Nearly all the things the other plans do! Two security reviews! No housing because it actually can wait a turn and I'm sad about that. But we get Capital Goods, Consumer Goods, MARVs, and Tiberium mitigation! Everyone wins, yay! (Flawless plan obviously.)

Still approval voting for:

[X] Plan AAAAAHHHHHbatement
 
[X] Plan Derpmind's Terrible No Good Compromise Plan
[X] Plan AAAAAHHHHHbatement
 
The shuttles are worth more the sooner we get them. And I think I remember Ithillid saying that for instance with one of the space station (phase 2) it would be -20 instead of -10. It will have easily paid for itself, if not twice over by the end of plan.
That depends on us actually being able to spend the necessary resources on orbital dice to make use of the shuttles, though; if we don't have the necessary resources, then their bonus is effectively useless. Additionally, I think you, Void, and possibly others are over-valuing the bonus from the shuttles massively. -10 progress requirements is not that big of an amount; we'd need to complete ~5 projects for the bonus to equate a single orbital die's worth of progress. The resource-savings certainly don't compare to the additional income from a SMARV.
Yeah, it will eventually pay for itself, and it's arguably the first space project we should pursue next, but it's going to take a fairly long time for it to even just break even, much less a profit. Which makes it rather non-urgent, in my opinion, when compared to efforts to raise our budget to a point where we can consistent afford to spend the necessary resources to pay for orbital dice.

That's in a vacuum and not accounting for the hidden synergistic bonus abatement, but also not what's being voted on this actual plan. 4 fencing dice upgraded to 4 YZ harvesting dice would cost an additional 20R (and what should I cut to find those exactly?), for a 76% chance of getting an additional 5-10R one turn earlier than if we put those extra 4 dice on YZ harvesting next turn instead. Spending 20R to get a max of 10 a turn early is a net -10 if pure monetary efficiency is what you're worried about.

We're probably NOT going to put those 4 dice into YZ harvesting next turn though, because YZ harvesting is terrible at making money and those same 4 dice would be better put into Red Zone mining or glaciers if we want money. Point efficiency is not the problem in Tiberium that's the entire reason to put 10 dice into the sector with a massive bonus, we're swimming in points, resource efficiency is what matters.
I already listed a number of projects that I consider non-essential/non-urgent, and suggested could be dropped in order to free up the necessary resources to spend on alternative abatement options such as YZ harvesting/RZ containment/SMARVs in a previous post; you only need to go back and read it.

And yes, resource efficiency is important, which is exactly why continuing efforts to increase our income this early in the 4-year plan should still be a major priority, and in my opinion well-worth making short-term sacrifices for if it means putting us in a much stronger position long-term. Doubly so if you can have your cake and eat it, too - meaning, getting abatement AND an income boost, rather than JUST abatement.
 
3 dice on Rolling stock means we likely have to finish next turn, that makes a difference to getting logistics online for glaciers and for pumping dice into BZ power.
 
[X] Plan Derpmind's Terrible No Good Compromise Plan
[X] Plan AAAAAHHHHHbatement


Why not. I'm a sucker for a late turn around vote.
 
[X] Plan Derpmind's Terrible No Good Compromise Plan
[X] Plan AAAAAHHHHHbatement
[X] Plan Fusion AAAAAHHHHHbatement

It IS a pretty good plan.
 
You know, I think no one has yet explained why on earth Plan Housing puts the shipyard in the Indian Ocean as opposed to Copenhagen which was explicitly called out as the one the navy most wanted.
 
Honestly, let's see. @Void Stalker , what's the reason you are putting the shipyard in the Indian Ocean as opposed to the Atlantic?
It lets us filter to pacific and atlantic better than one in the atlantic since Panama Canal is wrecked thanks to tiberium. We also have a cap good facility in NZ that it helps cover. I do intend on a 2nd shipyard next turn (which will be Copenhagen) as I feel 2 is enough to tide navy over as we then shore up other mil sections (even though I want all 3 before plan is finished). Duqm also supports a push from the Karachi Planned City that I would like to start with Chicago Planned sooner than later (Karachi is logistics and Chicago is abatement in addition to letting GDI process more tiberium) and increasing our overall income even if in a year or so we start spinning it off to other departments early would be helpful.
 
Regarding tiberium mutation, it would seem our best long term countermesure is Scrin research (the Scrin presumably have ways to regulate the behaviour of tiberium). We should start that up as soon as possible.
 
It lets us filter to pacific and atlantic better than one in the atlantic since Panama Canal is wrecked thanks to tiberium. We also have a cap good facility in NZ that it helps cover. I do intend on a 2nd shipyard next turn (which will be Copenhagen) as I feel 2 is enough to tide navy over as we then shore up other mil sections (even though I want all 3 before plan is finished). Duqm also supports a push from the Karachi Planned City that I would like to start with Chicago Planned sooner than later (Karachi is logistics and Chicago is abatement in addition to letting GDI process more tiberium) and increasing our overall income even if in a year or so we start spinning it off to other departments early would be helpful.

@Ithillid made mention on the discord that Busan would be the one covering for Karachi and not Duqm.
 
@Ithillid made mention on the discord that Busan would be the one covering for Karachi and not Duqm.
No, I noted that many of the more hazardous parts of the journeys would be covered by Busan. Look at the line that more or less runs through the Malaca Straight, into the Java Sea, and then south of indonesia. That is where I am putting one of the splits. Both are important, and both cover important sea lanes, but one does a lot more of the island protection part for Karachi.
 
Back
Top