Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Inferno Gel is a munitions project which is why it is missing right now. We can only do 3 munitions deployments at a time.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Inferno Gel is a munitions project which is why it is missing right now. We can only do 3 munitions deployments at a time.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
New preliminary plan for Q3 2063 after reading all of the debates so far. It does:
- Rails, Shuttles and Housing Refits,
- 5 Dice on Alloys and 3 Dice on Fusion Plans,
- 3 Dice on Reykjavik with Adaptive Clothing Development because that will help with our civilian industrial infrastructure,
- 3 Dice on Lab Meat Deployment because I want that done as soon as able and the rest on Reforestation Prep,
- Both leftover Blue Inhibitors get a Die and then a Phase Each of Border Offensives, Deep Red Glaciers and Coordinated Abatement because we can do it all with a single Free Die in Tiberium,
- Life Support Development with a slow rolled Columbia finish so Shala can catch up,
- Autodoc Deployment has 3 Dice in case it is needed and then finishing off Universities,
- Both AA Dice go here, one on SADN to supplement 3 already added to get it finished next turn and the other on Railgun Munition Factories to save us a turn or two before we can have Inferno Gel. Also does Unmanned Vehicles, Infantry Support Drones and Stealth Disruptors Deployment.
[ ] Plan Logistical Orbit v3.1:
-[ ] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice +27 bonus) 80 Resources:
--[ ] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 6) 0/255? 15 RpD, 3 Dice = 45 R 45% ADC 53
--[ ] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 159/225 25 RpD, 1 Die = 25 R 77% DC 24
--[ ] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1) 114/170 10 RpD, 1 Die = 10 R 87% DC 14
-[ ] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 3 Free Dice +34 bonus) 260 Resources:
--[ ] U-Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/490? 40 RpD, 5 Dice = 200 R 90% ADC 57
--[ ] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/310/600? 20 RpD, 3 Dice = 60 R 100%/9% ADC 1/74
-[ ] Light and Chemical Industry (4/4 Dice +29 bonus) 75 Resources:
--[ ] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1105? 20 RpD, 3 Dice = 60 R 73% ADC 45
--[ ] Adaptive Clothing Development 0/60 15 RpD, 1 Die = 15 R 90% DC 11
-[ ] Agriculture (6/6 Dice +29 bonus) 65? Resources:
--[ ] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/800? 5 RpD, 4 Dice = 20 R 4/8 Median ADC N/A
--[ ] Laboratory Meat Deployment 0/??? 15? RpD, 3 Die = 45? R ???% ADC ???
-[ ] Tiberium (7/7 Dice +1 Free Die +39 bonus) 225 Resources:
--[ ] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210? 25 RpD, 1 Die = 25 R 100% DC 1
--[ ] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/200? 30 RpD, 3 Dice = 90 R 95% ADC 20
--[ ] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85? 30 RpD, 1 Die = 30 R 100% DC 1
--[ ] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85? 30 RpD, 1 Die = 30 R 100% DC 1
--[ ] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/200 25 RpD, 2 Die = 50 R 97% ADC 13
-[ ] Orbital (7/7 Dice +1 Free Die + Erewhon +34 bonus) 190 Resources:
--[ ] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) (Updated) 643/1015? 20 RpD, 3 Dice + Erewhon Die = 80 R 26% ADC 60
--[ ] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520/1485? 20 RpD, 4 Dice = 80 R 100%/ 4/12 Median ADC 1/ N/A
--[ ] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 30 RpD, 1 Die = 30 R 75% DC 26
-[ ] Services (4/4 Dice +35 bonus) 105 Resources:
--[ ] Autodoc Systems Deployment 0/??? 30 RpD, 3 Dice = 90 R ???% ADC ???
--[ ] University Program Updates 139/255 15 RpD, 1 Die = 15 R 35% DC 66
-[ ] Military (7/7 Dice +1 Free Die + 2 AA Die +31 bonus) 150 Resources:
--[ ] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/??? 20 RpD, 3 Dice + AA Die = 80 R ???% ADC ???
--[ ] Infantry Recon Support Drone Deployment 0/160? 10 RpD, 2 Die = 20 R 67% ADC 42
--[ ] Railgun Munitions Factories (Phase 3) (Munitions) 50/165? 10 RpD, 1 AA Die = 10 R 1% DC 100
--[ ] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/180? 15 RpD, 2 Die = 30 R 49% ADC 52
--[ ] Unmanned Support Ground Vehicle Development (Tech) 0/80 20 RpD, 1 Die = 20 R 72% DC 28
-[ ] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice +29 bonus):
--[ ] Administrative Assistance Strategic Area Defense Networks 2 Die
--[ ] Administrative Assistance Railgun Munitions Factories 2 Die
-[ ] Total Cost: 80+260+75+65?+225+190+105+150 = 1150?/1165
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And what does a delay cost us? If the project finishes a turn later, what will we have lost? As far as I can tell, a delay by one turn on Reykjavik doesn't cost us anything. Therefore, the decent chance to save a die, and thus make a die's worth of progress elsewhere, is basically free.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Wrong question. Should be: What do we have to gain?
Things we have to gain:
1 turn earlier on any possible future projects appearing.
1 turn earlier on any excess myomers going out to private industry, which they could really use. (Memory fuzzy, and now that we've build a round of ZA factories, this might not be a thing.)
1 turn earlier on +8 Capital Goods. These have many uses:
They are worth 40R per turn on the Nod market. Twice the 20R cost of the 3rd die.
Or we can use them to hand off the second 10 Capital Goods to private industry. Doing that asap gets that sector growing faster. Economic growth before the election could be beneficial.
Or it pays for most of the Predictive Modeling Management if we want to do that right now. With the discounts from Alloys, this has become more applicable. For those small expensive projects that don't complete in one turn when they could. (Yes, I am looking at you Inhibitors.)
It is an opportunity cost, which are annoyingly hard to quantify.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't understand why people who want to save STUs for the economy aren't interested in Microfusion Cells. Right now we have three (Technically four, but Alloy Blades were wisely rolling into the Structural Alloys Foundries) consuming projects that relate to the economy. The aforesaid Alloy Foundries, Repulsorplates, and Prototype MFCs. Everyone wants at least the 5th phase of Alloy Foundries and Repulsorplates, and most I feel would support doing the last phase of Foundries. I certainly would, though more on that later. So that's basically everyone agreeing to do all of those besides the very last one available. So why not MFCs? @doruma1920 has mathed out that we can afford them, if not now then by the time North Boston is finished. And that's assuming nothing happens that would improve our STU supply. It has military applications, but that doesn't mean they'll get most of them, and there's explicit industrial use for them. I don't understand.
The one thing I can think of is that there might be better STU consuming projects in future. I can see the logic, but it strikes me as very wrong headed. STUs are a powerful resource, and GDI can do powerful things with them. Not using them because there might be something better later is just wasting the pile we have.
Or maybe I've completely missed the mark and people are happy to do MFCs, we just have other projects to do first. Which is totally fair. I'm annoyed that we can't do MFC and North Boston at the same time, but even beyond it being a plan goal I do want to see North Boston finally completed.
Anyway, returning to the final phase of Alloy Foundries, it's important to do even beyond its very good Numbers Go Up potential. It's more highly advanced alien material science, and we need that. Materials are as fundamental and foundational as it gets, and having as great as understanding of them as possible will allow GDI to build better... well, everything. We're already building more efficient buildings, they seem to be getting incorporated into some vehicle parts. From the military to our industry, from our homes to our trains, from the depths of our Vein Mines to our Space stations, it affects everything. So even something that indirectly relates to that stuff like Alloy Blades is key knowledge, and having people experienced in working with what we know of it now is important for the future.
Naturally I feel the same way about Alloy Armor when it becomes available. Foundational Material Knowledge. The building blocks of buildings blocks. And we'd have three insights from all the different alloys, just incredibly useful. Plus we've got cool armor from Nod and implemented GDI's old cool armor as the standard. Three high end armors sounds like it might have an interesting synergy, on top of the synergy from three alien material insights.
And this part is less about convincing anyone of anything, but I realized that between Fast Twitch Myomer, Repulsorplates, and some adjustments or improvements to the Jump Jet system, we could take our mechs from improved GDI stuff to near Armored Cores, which I think are just cool.
The one thing I can think of is that there might be better STU consuming projects in future. I can see the logic, but it strikes me as very wrong headed. STUs are a powerful resource, and GDI can do powerful things with them. Not using them because there might be something better later is just wasting the pile we have.
Or maybe I've completely missed the mark and people are happy to do MFCs, we just have other projects to do first. Which is totally fair. I'm annoyed that we can't do MFC and North Boston at the same time, but even beyond it being a plan goal I do want to see North Boston finally completed.
Anyway, returning to the final phase of Alloy Foundries, it's important to do even beyond its very good Numbers Go Up potential. It's more highly advanced alien material science, and we need that. Materials are as fundamental and foundational as it gets, and having as great as understanding of them as possible will allow GDI to build better... well, everything. We're already building more efficient buildings, they seem to be getting incorporated into some vehicle parts. From the military to our industry, from our homes to our trains, from the depths of our Vein Mines to our Space stations, it affects everything. So even something that indirectly relates to that stuff like Alloy Blades is key knowledge, and having people experienced in working with what we know of it now is important for the future.
Naturally I feel the same way about Alloy Armor when it becomes available. Foundational Material Knowledge. The building blocks of buildings blocks. And we'd have three insights from all the different alloys, just incredibly useful. Plus we've got cool armor from Nod and implemented GDI's old cool armor as the standard. Three high end armors sounds like it might have an interesting synergy, on top of the synergy from three alien material insights.
And this part is less about convincing anyone of anything, but I realized that between Fast Twitch Myomer, Repulsorplates, and some adjustments or improvements to the Jump Jet system, we could take our mechs from improved GDI stuff to near Armored Cores, which I think are just cool.
What? Oh, huh. How about that.
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- Location
- USA
Pretty much this and the lack of STUs.
If we had plenty of STUs I think the only reason we wouldn't be doing mfcs is that we feel alloys and Repulsorplates will have a larger impact pretty much everywhere, and the fact that alloys and Repulsorplates are about all we can fit in before we absolutely have to start doing North Boston.
So we are just waiting to knock out what we have to do and for STUs to appear.
But like you said. Something else might show up needing STUs that would be a higher priority. The better energy batteries are great and have definite uses. But something with even more uses might show up.
Just... priorities change all the time and we only have so much we can do.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I remember Ithillid saying there was some limit to how many (Munitions) projects could be going simultaneously before the Bureau started showing strain. I don't recall Ithillid saying there was a hard limit of three projects. IIRC, Inferno Gel got (temporarily?) cut as part of Ithillid's efforts to shrink down the oversized Military section.
It's an opportunity cost... if those opportunities show up and if we immediately go for them the very turn they appear. If new projects show up but we wait a turn or longer before starting them, or if those new projects just don't show up, then it wouldn't have been worth it spending a die to rush out completion. And more often than not, when we get new projects, we're so busy clearing out old projects that it takes multiple turns for us to start working on the new stuff.
If you want to get the Market Capital Goods or the Predictive Modeling Management done ASAP? Those are projects where the sooner we do them, the sooner they start paying themselves off. If doing one of those two in Q4 is the plan, then I can support putting 3 dice on Reykjavik. Otherwise, I don't see Reykjavik in and of itself worth more than 2 dice next turn.
(For the other stuff: The main obstacle to the market getting more Capital Goods is that our excess CGs each turn are going into the CG reserve. Once the reserve reaches a healthy level, then we'll be able to switch our excess CGs back over to the market. And I heavily doubt we're going to be giving Nod CGs anytime soon because a point of CG is way more limited for us than +5 RpT, and also CGs are often used for producing military hardware.)
Yeah, even right now we could technically do four if we got far enough in the GD-3 track.
IIRC, the Munitions Department does X amount of work per turn, divided between visible projects and below our scale of abstraction projects (which over time prevent issues from rising to our scale of abstraction). The more projects we have it working on, the less it gets done in the background.
That said, I expect Ingerno Gel will come back once we knock out at least one of our current munitions projects. BiProp might be waiting for USGV, as it is (iirc) too unstable for us to be willing to use in manned platforms.
We could probably also do a write-in, if people want it earlier than that.
- Location
- USA
Meh. If it's not available at the moment it's probably best not to worry about it. There's plenty of other stuff we can do. If we clear out enough I'm sure it will show back up.
- Location
- The Underdark
It is going to be producing mfcs, it is going to be making a difference. The issue is that it is not producing enough to be obviously visible indicator wise, or on immediately visible projects.
- Location
- MSC
Regarding Long Term Systematic Planning Organization - I seriously think we need to delay that until after Boston 5.
Main reason - Income Goal. Easiest way to achieve that (with least amount of variables) is to restart Vein Mine spam and that would require Cap Goods.
Main reason - Income Goal. Easiest way to achieve that (with least amount of variables) is to restart Vein Mine spam and that would require Cap Goods.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
I'd warrant a guess that Micro Fusion Cel Laboratories would make the Transorbital Fighters and the Novahawk cheaper then.
For the Income goal, we still have the Deep Glacier Mines to finish, but after that I don't think it would be unreasonable to pursue some Vein Mines to secure funding. We are about to get Reykjavik in the next 1-3 turns depending on the dice strategy and rolls and we have a decent supply currently.
For the Income goal, we still have the Deep Glacier Mines to finish, but after that I don't think it would be unreasonable to pursue some Vein Mines to secure funding. We are about to get Reykjavik in the next 1-3 turns depending on the dice strategy and rolls and we have a decent supply currently.
- Location
- Earth
I would actually guess the opposite. Microfusion, if it is applicable to vehicles (which I continue to doubt), would make them more expensive in resource cost, progress cost and STU. In exchange they would gain capabilities.
I think what it might make cheaper is space stations and Earth projects, but do it through progress reductions.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
What HousePet said. We don't know what the capstone benefits will be, but "unlocks a project" and "boosts civilian economy" are both fairly likely outcomes.
Sure, hypothetically those benefits might come to nothing. Then again, we have about 40 Light Industry dice left between now and the end of the Plan and the last thing we actually need to accomplish as a Plan commitment is the completion of Reykjavik, which is going to take about 2-4 more of those dice. Even finishing Bergen, which is very much a stretch goal we are under no obligation to accomplish, only takes about 23 of those dice. We absolutely have a ton of wiggle room in Light Industry and can afford to accept a 17% chance of wasting one if there's some reasonable chance of getting other benefits.
Interested in, yes. Think we can afford, no.
Wording matters.
Well, there you go, then. Finishing Reykjavik a turn sooner means we have +8 more Capital Goods in the reserve than we otherwise would. That's not nothing, on top of other considerations.
Could you expand on your reasoning here?
Personally, I'd like to wait on Alloys Phase 6 for that. That's the phase where we start turning out alloy blades in large quantities, and the most immediately obvious application for that is "hard-rock tiberium-resistant mining equipment." It may make vein mines specifically easier by giving us a superior alternative to the known Nod-style harvesting claws we were already using.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We can afford to waste a die, sure. But we can also afford a bit of patience to save a die, too.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes.
It's just that "save a die for what, exactly" is very much on the radar at the moment. I'm not saying it's "for nothing," mind you, but I'd be a lot more interested in conserving dice if we were having this conversation in Heavy Industry, Orbital, or Tiberium.
It would likely be going to Bergen - which would make Q4 pretty much a sure thing of completing Phase 4 of that, with only 4 dice.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, that's a fair point- a potential tradeoff between the chances of completing Bergen Phase 4 a turn earlier, and completing Reykjavik Phase 5 a turn earlier.
My view on that is that historically, we've not seen transformational benefits from Phase 4 of a five-phase megaproject (the prototype here being North Boston, but also the space stations), apart from the listed mechanical benefits. We've had it alluded to that such benefits are more likely to arise from a capstone Phase 5 completion. So I, for one, am more interested in getting a 76% instead of 17% chance of completing Reykjavik Phase 5 a turn earlier than I am in getting a 55% versus 11% or 89% versus 55% chance of getting Bergen Phase 4 a turn earlier.
The impact on Bergen Phase 5, in turn, is hard to predict because of how far out it is, but there, the delta on completion chance of the phase per die tends to be about 15-23% per additional die starting from 20 dice, and again, the delta there doesn't justify a 59% delta in the chance of getting Reykjavik a turn sooner.
- Location
- USA
I just want to finish it. Knock out a mega project and free up the rest of light industry for whatever we want.
Even though that will probably be Bergen. Shrug. We need Bergen too.
3 dice might not finish Reykjavik. But the odds are decent enough.
Even though that will probably be Bergen. Shrug. We need Bergen too.
3 dice might not finish Reykjavik. But the odds are decent enough.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Any other project in the future? Like, we never run out of projects to do, but we're always short on dice to do those projects with. Any dice saved now is a die spent on something else later. And there's nothing different with Reykjavik than any other project in a similar position. Look at Tarberries right now:
When we next work on the Tarberries, we're probably going to put only one die on it. Because that one die has a 10% chance to complete both phases. Sure, we could put two dice on it instead, and most of the time it'll require two dice total to finish. But Tarberries aren't much of a time sensitive project at all. And by going for that small but significant chance to save dice here and in other projects in a similar state, we end up saving many dice and doing more stuff overall.
Our ability to sometimes get projects done cheaply for less dice is always going to be of benefit when it happens. Think of it as offsetting what happens we we get unlucky on a project, and that project requires more dice. If we didn't go for < 50% dice allocations on projects, then we'd spend more dice after unlucky rolls like normal, but we wouldn't be giving ourselves the opportunity to spend less dice on lucky rolls. If we treated every project like it needed to be completed ASAP, and allocated dice accordingly, we'd be years behind where we are now.
I get that many of us want Reykjavik completed, and so are willing to spend an extra die on it. But a planquest isn't a sprint to the nearest cool thing. It's a marathon. Every decision made now has consequences that will be felt many turns from now. So being a bit dice conservative on all but the time sensitive projects may seem unintuitive, but it has real benefits and it's how most turns throughout the quest (and in other planquests too) have operated.
This conversation keeps popping up once in a while throughout this quest. But the reasoning never changes.
- Location
- USA
I dunno.
If it can help mechs and zone suits then it's probably worth the three dice to try and finish it this turn.
If whatever improvements can kick in before Karachi so much the better.
I remember our giant mech was having a difficult time walking with all the tech on it. Improved myomers would probably help.
Plus whatever civilian or industrial uses. It seems like a major benefit to cybernetics. The eye one called them out specifically.
If it can help mechs and zone suits then it's probably worth the three dice to try and finish it this turn.
If whatever improvements can kick in before Karachi so much the better.
I remember our giant mech was having a difficult time walking with all the tech on it. Improved myomers would probably help.
Plus whatever civilian or industrial uses. It seems like a major benefit to cybernetics. The eye one called them out specifically.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
There may, sometimes, be very specific circumstances where the 'sprinting' option rather than the 'marathoning' option seems like a good idea.
Sometimes because there is some specific consequence of the current project that is seen as more pressing than that of most other projects. Or because the risk of the die actually going to waste is low. Or a number of other possibilities.
Some rules have no exceptions. Other rules have occasional exceptions and are more like guidelines. This is a case where I think we might be comfortable and wise to deviate from the guideline. I do not intend to argue this point unto death, to be clear, and I think pretty much all possible arguments have been presented on the matter, one way or the other.
Sometimes because there is some specific consequence of the current project that is seen as more pressing than that of most other projects. Or because the risk of the die actually going to waste is low. Or a number of other possibilities.
Some rules have no exceptions. Other rules have occasional exceptions and are more like guidelines. This is a case where I think we might be comfortable and wise to deviate from the guideline. I do not intend to argue this point unto death, to be clear, and I think pretty much all possible arguments have been presented on the matter, one way or the other.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Last turn we had three project that we 'sprinted' on: U Series Alloys, RZ Border Offensives, and SADN. All of these were for very good reasons: U Series because each phase gives universal discounts. RZ mining because we want the subsequent Glacier Mines open for next turn, because we needed the +20 RpT to offset the -90 RpT we handed off, and because we wanted to make more progress on its next and final phase. And finally SADN because we have a strict timeline where we want that active so we can do Karachi without (much) fear of nuclear retaliation.
In contrast, the arguments for sprinting Reykjavik I've seen so far boil down to "because it might be useful." Unfortunately, this argument applies to practically every project we have available, not just Reykjavik.
As I said earlier, if the plan is to use Reykjavik's +8 CG to immediately afterwards give the remaining 10 CGs to the Market, or to implement the Predictive Modeling Management, then as those both give greater benefits the sooner we finish them, I can support putting 3 dice on Reykjavik for that reason. But I pretty much came up with this reasoning myself in response to one of HousePet's post, so w/e. Anyways, I'm not going to stop anyone from putting as many dice on whatever projects they want. Put 5 dice on Reykjavik for whatever it matters. The worst I'm going to do is disagree with your decision, not bite your head off.