Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

[bigking321]

That's a good question.

Click to shrink...

I mean, the carriers were designed to use the wingmen when we developed but didn't deploy those. But that was a specific airframe and not a transformative technology...

I assume if we just asked we might get a answer but it could go either way based on past precedent I think.

On a unrelated note, I just remembered that the Infernium laser refits and SADN were supposed to be linked in some way, in that working on one would reduce the work needed for the other as they both need large amounts of anti air Infernium lasers.

 

[Lightwhispers]

Threadmarked probability array is now up to date, barring gremlins, Nod infiltrators, or other shenanigans.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I mean, the carriers were designed to use the wingmen when we developed but didn't deploy those. But that was a specific airframe and not a transformative technology...

I assume if we just asked we might get a answer but it could go either way based on past precedent I think.

On a unrelated note, I just remembered that the Infernium laser refits and SADN were supposed to be linked in some way, in that working on one would reduce the work needed for the other as they both need large amounts of anti air Infernium lasers.

Click to shrink...

Yeah. I'm pretty sure we have a production line for our laser disco balls now. To put it mildly.

 

[Phht]

I should point out - the Gen 2 plates are designed. They already are fully "statted" out. We just haven't built the fatories to make them yet. So any project we develop at this point can already take into account those plates. Kinda like how SADN took into account disco balls despite us not having built the factories to do the naval refits. In the case of SADN part of the cost was for building factories to make disco balls for the defense network, that might've been discounted if we had done the refits first, IIRC.

So if we do drones or Novahawk or whatever development this turn, they won't be ignoring gen 2 grav plates because we didn't build the factories yet. The progress to complete the deployment project might be higher if the factories aren't done though.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe.

I think what we might see is that the highest-end stuff, where the cost justifies building entirely new hoverplate factories just to support the production, gets it, while very little else does. Because the vehicles are being designed within a context where good hoverplates are hard to get and cannot be assumed to be freely and widely available.

So hoverplate-equipped space fighters, yes. Hoverplate-equipped APCs of the kind GDI needs tens of thousands of, no.

 

[Oleg-14191]

That reminds me, GDI's own Bogatyrs when?

And do they need Hoverplates?

 

[Rakuhn]

I don't think the Bogatyr anti-grav drives have procced yet.

 

[bigking321]

Regardless, I do think we need to do Repulsorplates after alloys. It seems like they are a big deal and could affect quite a lot.

 

[Lightwhispers]

That reminds me, GDI's own Bogatyrs when?

And do they need Hoverplates?

Click to shrink...

I believe much of the problem is getting sufficiently dense power generation without using liquid tiberium at some stage.
Repulsorplates would probably help, as well, but there are other issues involved.

As an alternative tack for planning:
This attempts to get more high-quality housing, more inhibitors, space housing, luxury foods, and otherwise get ahead of civilian demand for better living conditions before the elections.

Plan Better Living Space(s)
Infrastructure 5 dice +27 65R
-[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 159/220 1 die 25R 82%
-[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2+3) 114/485 4 dice 40R 22%
Heavy Industry 5 + 1 Free dice +34 200R
-[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/485 5 dice 200R 91%
-[] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/310 1 die 20R 100%
Light and Chemical Industry 4 dice +29 100R
-[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1100 2 dice 40R 17%
-[] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) 235/640 2 dice 60R
Agriculture 6 dice +29 65R
-[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/815 3 dice 15R
-[] Vertical Farming Projects (Stage 5) 78/220 2 dice 30R 77%
-[] Dairy Ranches (Phase 3) 98/180 1 die 20R 63%
Tiberium 7 + 1 AA dice + Erewhon +39 260R
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 1 die 25R 100%
-[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/200 3 dice 90R 95%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 18 Himalayas) 0/80 1 AA die 30R 75%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 2 Eastern United States) 0/80 1 die 30R 75%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 1 AA die 30R 88%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 9 East Australia) 59/85 1 Erewhon die 30R 95%
-[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/190 1 die 25R 47%
Orbital 7 + 5 Free dice +34 250R
-[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1030 3 dice 60R 2%
-[] High Density Housing 0/315 3 dice 60R 28%
-[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4+5) 486/1525 5 dice 100R
-[] Life Support Processor Development (Tech) 0/80 1 die 30R 75%
Services 4 dice +35 105R
-[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/350 3 dice 90R 6%
-[] University Program Updates 137/250 1 die 15R 38%
Military 7 dice +31 140R
-[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/345? 3 dice 60R 78%
-[] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) 56/230 2 dice 40R 54%
-[] Transorbital Fighter Development 0/60 1 die 20R 92%
-[] Unmanned Support Ground Vehicle Development 0/80 1 die 20R 72%
Bureaucracy 4 dice +29
-[] Administrative Assistance Tiberium 2 die auto
-[] ???
-[] ???

1185/1225 R

Edit: made a few changes.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Infrastructure 5 dice +27 65R
-[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 159/220 1 die 25R 82%
-[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2+3) 114/485 4 dice 40R 22%

Click to shrink...

I think Derpmind's onto something about the railroads.

Heavy Industry 5 + 1 Free dice +34 200R
-[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/485 4 dice 160R 53%
-[] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/310 2 die 40R 100%

Click to shrink...

Hrrm. Honestly, if there are only six Heavy Industry dice to be had, I'd seriously consider accepting only one on power plants just to give us a significantly better-than-even chance of clearing the phase on alloys. Because finishing Alloys Phase 5 is actually a major milestone for us what with that being the last phase that grants cost discounts, and we really do want to have those rather than not have those when it comes time to roll the dice on 2063Q4.

I'll also recap what I said with Derpmind. If Light Industry dice were at a premium and we had to be careful to parcel them out efficiently, I'd agree on two dice for Reykjavik. Here, I'm not sure. We have plenty of Light Industry dice and getting Reykjavik done a turn sooner may well be worth the 17% chance of wasting a die, because of the possibility that it unlocks other desirable projects. Or that's my opinion.

In Orbital or Heavy Industry, I'd be tempted to do it your way. Here, I'm more casual with dice allocation in hopes of getting completion a bit sooner.

Tiberium 7 + 1 AA dice + Erewhon +39 260R
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 1 die 25R 100%
-[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/200 3 dice 90R 95%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 18 Himalayas) 0/80 1 AA die 30R 36%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 2 Eastern United States) 0/80 1 Erewhon die 30R 36%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 1 die 30R 100%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 9 East Australia) 59/85 1 die 30R 100%
-[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/190 1 die 25R 47%

Click to shrink...

Hmm. I would argue against using AA/E dice on inhibitors. You're paying 30 R for the privilege of probably not completing an inhibitor, as opposed to probably yes completing an inhibitor. The odds of having to spend a die all over again next turn are higher than I'd like. If it was me, I'd put those AA/E dice on Columbia and elsewhere.

On which note... I'm not sure we want to commit to another medium housing bay until we've seen the second generation options. Those are too low-density to be likely to be dice-efficient compared to the next-gen options, and may not contribute much to those options. Plus, we already have such a bay, so from a prototyping standpoint we've learned a lot of what we want to learn.

If it was me, I'd build one of the hospital/spaceport bays (as support for further operations and hopefully making things easier), or a high density bay. The high density bays may not be as fun to live in, but given the immense demand for living space in space, we should at least try and see what it's like to build one on a prototyping basis, at least once. The Very High Density option is probably a bridge too far, though if we were serious about evacuating Earth that's exactly what we'd need lots and lots of.

 

[Rakuhn]

Iirc, having different density housing bays will result in a more mixed development (i.e. two mixed mid/heavy instead of one pure each). If RL is anything to go by, that's a lot healthier for a community than everyone living in identical housing.

It gives room for people to change their accommodations depending on where they are in life. If you have kids, you probably want more space. If you are single, or your kids have moved out, having less space to maintain can be more desirable.

TLDR: if we've done a medium housing bay, we should do a heavy housing bay before doing another medium. And vice-versa.

 

[Oleg-14191]

Yeah, we might be better off without housing bays and going for next gen habitats.

Not sure about hospital and transportation though.

 

[Simon_Jester]

The way I see it, we're realistically at least three turns from finishing Shala. Given that we can't/shouldn't try to squeeze more than about five dice into Shala, that means we have some time and wiggle room to lay groundwork.

I recommend doing all three of:
Hospital Bay
Spaceport Bay
High Density Housing Bay

In no particular order.

We leave the last two slots deliberately open until 2064Q2 or later when we're sure we know what to even do with them.

(obviously we won't have a fourth slot until Columbia is actually finished, probably I hope in 2063Q4, so we won't be able to start the third of those three items I list until 2064Q1).

 

[Shadows]

I am, once again, bored and tinkering with plans.

[] Draft Plan Diggy Diggy Glacier v.2
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 dice, +27, 95R)
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 159/380 3 dice 75R 70%
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2) 114/320 2 dice 20R 21%
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 dice + 6 Free, +34, 400R)
--[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5+6) 136/965 9 dice 360R 27%
--[] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/310 2 die 40R 100% Phase 2, ~2/3rds Phase 3
-[] Light and Chemical Industry (4/4 dice, +29, 75R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1100 3 dice 60R 76%
--[] Adaptive Clothing Development (New) 0/60 1 die 15R 90%
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29, 50R)
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/815 4 dice 20R
--[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 83/230 2 dice 30R 74%
-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice, +39, 205R)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 1 die 25R 100%
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 1 die 30R 100%
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zone 9 East Australia) 59/85 1 die 30R 100%
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4+5) 0/400 4 dice 120R 33%
-[] Orbital (7/7 dice + 2 AA dice, +34, 190R)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486?/520 2+2AA dice 80R
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1030 3 dice 60R 2%
--[] Hospital Bay 0/315 1 dice 20R
--[] Life Support Processor Development (Tech) 0/80 1 die 30R 75%
-[] Services (4/4 dice, +35, 75R)
--[] University Program Updates (New) 137/250 1 die 15R 38%
--[] Library Enhancement Programs (New) 0/180 2 dice 30R 56%
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting (New) 0/350 1 dice 30R
-[] Military (7/7 dice, +31, 135R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 115/345? 3 dice 60R 72%
--[] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) 56/230 2 dice 40R 54%
--[] Unmanned Support Ground Vehicle Development 0/80 1 die 20R 72%
--[] Governor A Development 0/40 1 die 15R 100%
-[] Bureaucracy (4/4 dice, +29)
--[] Administrative Assistance: GDSS Shala x2

Total Cost: 1225R

I've made a few adjustments to the last post I did for this one:

I lowered the dice allocation for Glaciers to 4 dice. There's still a 33% chance of finishing Phase 4+5, and the dice saved has been transferred to finishing another BZ inhib.

Rearranged Orb to put all of the AA dice on Shala while still giving Columbia a chance to finish, starting the Hospital Bay, and doing life support dev.

I'm considering writing up an alt variant for the possibility that SADN 4 isn't available next turn.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Rearranged Orb to put all of the AA dice on Shala while still giving Columbia a chance to finish, starting the Hospital Bay, and doing life support dev.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it's looking pretty good for a plan that puts no Free dice on Orbital (which I favor doing, admittedly)

I'm considering writing up an alt variant for the possibility that SADN 4 isn't available next turn.

Click to shrink...

Ehh, that's easy. Just hot-swap the dice for Orca Wingmen or the Seattle yard or something. Doesn't need a whole new plan, it's a straightforward change to make. Or that's how I see it.

 

[Lightwhispers]

I think Derpmind's onto something about the railroads.

Hrrm. Honestly, if there are only six Heavy Industry dice to be had, I'd seriously consider accepting only one on power plants just to give us a significantly better-than-even chance of clearing the phase on alloys. Because finishing Alloys Phase 5 is actually a major milestone for us what with that being the last phase that grants cost discounts, and we really do want to have those rather than not have those when it comes time to roll the dice on 2063Q4.

I'll also recap what I said with Derpmind. If Light Industry dice were at a premium and we had to be careful to parcel them out efficiently, I'd agree on two dice for Reykjavik. Here, I'm not sure. We have plenty of Light Industry dice and getting Reykjavik done a turn sooner may well be worth the 17% chance of wasting a die, because of the possibility that it unlocks other desirable projects. Or that's my opinion.

In Orbital or Heavy Industry, I'd be tempted to do it your way. Here, I'm more casual with dice allocation in hopes of getting completion a bit sooner.

Hmm. I would argue against using AA/E dice on inhibitors. You're paying 30 R for the privilege of probably not completing an inhibitor, as opposed to probably yes completing an inhibitor. The odds of having to spend a die all over again next turn are higher than I'd like. If it was me, I'd put those AA/E dice on Columbia and elsewhere.

On which note... I'm not sure we want to commit to another medium housing bay until we've seen the second generation options. Those are too low-density to be likely to be dice-efficient compared to the next-gen options, and may not contribute much to those options. Plus, we already have such a bay, so from a prototyping standpoint we've learned a lot of what we want to learn.

If it was me, I'd build one of the hospital/spaceport bays (as support for further operations and hopefully making things easier), or a high density bay. The high density bays may not be as fun to live in, but given the immense demand for living space in space, we should at least try and see what it's like to build one on a prototyping basis, at least once. The Very High Density option is probably a bridge too far, though if we were serious about evacuating Earth that's exactly what we'd need lots and lots of.

Click to shrink...

Railroads... well, we've been seeing diminishing returns, although that may change with new territory opening up, but I think they are not quite as much of a necessity as they are being pushed as. Largely because much of the new territory doesn't actually have much in it, so we already have rails between most of our stuff.

That's a point on HI, especially since we probably want to pivot hard into shoveling dice at North Boston Q4. Because that's 4+ turns of 5 dice each, and we do want to get that done for the capstone.

For Tib, I actually swapped the dice around, giving the AA/E dice to the completing inhibitors, for a 88/95% chance of success, which I consider pretty acceptable.

For the bay, see below:

Iirc, having different density housing bays will result in a more mixed development (i.e. two mixed mid/heavy instead of one pure each). If RL is anything to go by, that's a lot healthier for a community than everyone living in identical housing.

It gives room for people to change their accommodations depending on where they are in life. If you have kids, you probably want more space. If you are single, or your kids have moved out, having less space to maintain can be more desirable.

TLDR: if we've done a medium housing bay, we should do a heavy housing bay before doing another medium. And vice-versa.

Click to shrink...

Valid point - I put that in as a bit of a placeholder, but a high-density bay should do well.
I don't really think a hospital bay is essential, since I am trying to avoid any more 6-dice pushes on any one project.

[] Draft Plan Diggy Diggy Glacier v.2

Click to shrink...

Huh. I don't hate it. It gets us in easy position to start work on North Boston Q4, and avoiding the "should we do NB or Phase 6 alloys" debate.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Railroads... well, we've been seeing diminishing returns, although that may change with new territory opening up, but I think they are not quite as much of a necessity as they are being pushed as. Largely because much of the new territory doesn't actually have much in it, so we already have rails between most of our stuff.

Click to shrink...

Phase 6 railroads are still short of the point of diminishing returns.

It's at Phase 7 that railroad phases start giving us +3 Logistics instead of +4. So I can see the value there.

For Tib, I actually swapped the dice around, giving the AA/E dice to the completing inhibitors, for a 88/95% chance of success, which I consider pretty acceptable.

Click to shrink...

That'd make more sense, yes.

Huh. I don't hate it. It gets us in easy position to start work on North Boston Q4, and avoiding the "should we do NB or Phase 6 alloys" debate.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, I think the Phase 6 alloys are going to be good enough that we won't regret taking them anyway, and I advocate completing them. North Boston is a big project, but it's not THAT big, and the relief from having a sizeable thwack of +RpT from the foundry capstone reducing our pressure in Tiberium would be really nice.

 

[Shadows]

That is why I decided on trying to push Phase 6. Even if we don't quite reach completion we will only have 1-2 (ish) dice left to spend on alloys and the rest can be allocated to NB5, with a token dice or so on power plants. It's a big, expensive ask, but it saves us headaches, potentially.

 

[Simon_Jester]

That is why I decided on trying to push Phase 6. Even if we don't quite reach completion we will only have 1-2 (ish) dice left to spend on alloys and the rest can be allocated to NB5, with a token dice or so on power plants. It's a big, expensive ask, but it saves us headaches, potentially.

Click to shrink...

I'd rather stick to an average of two dice per turn on power plants over the medium-long term, because we don't have a thick enough Energy surplus for things to go well in a few years as we start shutting down the first generation fusion plants. For one turn it's fine, since we're building to meet future demand and not sudden demand spikes. But I'd rather not keep shorting fusion plant construction for a year at a time, because that's how we end up back in the days of "just in time delivery" and having to slam out fusion phases over and over during the Regency War.

 

[Shadows]

I'd rather stick to an average of two dice per turn on power plants over the medium-long term, because we don't have a thick enough Energy surplus for things to go well in a few years as we start shutting down the first generation fusion plants. For one turn it's fine, since we're building to meet future demand and not sudden demand spikes. But I'd rather not keep shorting fusion plant construction for a year at a time, because that's how we end up back in the days of "just in time delivery" and having to slam out fusion phases over and over during the Regency War.

Click to shrink...

Hence the 'or so', allowing us to play our dice by ear. Like, I do actually agree on keeping two dice on power when possible. Say hypothetically that SA6 is one dice off of completion in Q4 - I would probably propose a plan with that one dice on SA6, five to six dice in NB5, and two-ish dice on power. It really does depend on how all our other plan goals are looking at that point as to whether I'd put more than three free dice in HI.

(My two favorite areas to put FD in are HI and Orbital. It doesn't take much convincing to get me to put dice there. )

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hence the 'or so', allowing us to play our dice by ear. Like, I do actually agree on keeping two dice on power when possible. Say hypothetically that SA6 is one dice off of completion in Q4 - I would probably propose a plan with that one dice on SA6, five to six dice in NB5, and two-ish dice on power. It really does depend on how all our other plan goals are looking at that point as to whether I'd put more than three free dice in HI.

(My two favorite areas to put FD in are HI and Orbital. It doesn't take much convincing to get me to put dice there. )

Click to shrink...

I share your preferences, with a sideline in tiberium because green death rock can go die in a fire.

Starting to tilt towards Orbital and Tiberium, but away from Heavy Industry, though. So I, for instance, might be content to spend less than 5-6 dice per turn on North Boston Phase 5, or do repulsorplate factories, if there's enough time and dice in the Plan.

 

[Shadows]

I share your preferences, with a sideline in tiberium because green death rock can go die in a fire.

Starting to tilt towards Orbital and Tiberium, but away from Heavy Industry, though. So I, for instance, might be content to spend less than 5-6 dice per turn on North Boston Phase 5, or do repulsorplate factories, if there's enough time and dice in the Plan.

Click to shrink...

Speaking of Repulsorplate Factories, I asked Ithillid in the Discord about Repulsors:

Since we've done the dev program for the plates already, Transorbital Fighters would be designed with them in mind, but Novahawks are a maybe. So it may be an idea, if SADN4 doesn't appear, to lump in Transorbital Fighter dev next turn, then wait til after the plate factories are built to dev the Novahawk.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Speaking of Repulsorplate Factories, I asked Ithillid in the Discord about Repulsors:

Since we've done the dev program for the plates already, Transorbital Fighters would be designed with them in mind, but Novahawks are a maybe. So it may be an idea, if SADN4 doesn't appear, to lump in Transorbital Fighter dev next turn, then wait til after the plate factories are built to dev the Novahawk.

Click to shrink...

Ohh, that's smart!

 

[Lightwhispers]

Speaking of Repulsorplate Factories, I asked Ithillid in the Discord about Repulsors:

Since we've done the dev program for the plates already, Transorbital Fighters would be designed with them in mind, but Novahawks are a maybe. So it may be an idea, if SADN4 doesn't appear, to lump in Transorbital Fighter dev next turn, then wait til after the plate factories are built to dev the Novahawk.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure if that's a "Novahawk is unlikely to need the plates", or "plates won't be ready in a fashion that would be workable for the Novahawk", though. (In other words, I'm not sure if the Novahawk would use the plates even if the factory was complete.)

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not sure if that's a "Novahawk is unlikely to need the plates", or "plates won't be ready in a fashion that would be workable for the Novahawk", though. (In other words, I'm not sure if the Novahawk would use the plates even if the factory was complete.)

Click to shrink...

Well, if we're going to go ahead with the repulsorplate factories before starting North Boston (and I think we should), then I for one am willing to wait 2-3 turns to finish those factories and find out.

If we end up committing to delaying the repulsorplate factories until 2065 because we want North Boston first, I dunno.