- Location
- USA
I mean, yes, but we have already developed them and deployed some.
I suppose deploying more might have some positive effect but I imagine most of the work there is already done.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
I suppose deploying more might have some positive effect but I imagine most of the work there is already done.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
This is sufficient to complete the current fusion phase, but I am concerned that we will need a large Energy surplus in 2065-67 as our first-generation fusion reactors shut down. Given that we routinely have Energy needs in the neighborhood of 10-12 Energy per turn (with DAE supplying +4), it is not enough to merely have 'enough' fusion reactors; we need to build ahead of our current needs.
I think this is overdoing it in regards to reforestation, because the project doesn't need doing that urgently and we have a dearth of actual "must-do" projects in the field. There is plenty of time and something in the vicinity of 70 remaining Agriculture dice to roll. We might as well also pursue other projects with more direct benefits for the people.
As to Reykjavik, remember that there is no rollover from Phase 5, and no large, onerous penalty for failure to complete the project in 2063Q3 in particular. I think it might be best to allocate only three dice, and the fourth to some other project.
Just because something is a Plan goal does not mean we should monomaniacally pursue it to the exclusion of all other things, even to the point of overkill and inefficiency.
It's not that the improvements to the tech aren't worth pursuing.
It's that based on the precedent of how all our other research works, it's not enough to just tick off the items on a list to automatically collect "improved X" technology. The scientists are spending time 'off camera' (that is, below Dr. Seo's level of responsibility and awareness) working on the project. Eventually we'll get a "better CRP" project of some kind, just as we get "improved STU extraction process" options and so on.
But that hasn't happened yet, and we have not heard a single in-story word about CRP improving. You're not wrong that the prerequisites for improving CRP are met, or that CRP improvement is worthwhile, but we shouldn't take it as given that CRP has improved off-camera without us finding out about it directly.
Last edited:
- Location
- Wall Gazing
1170/1225 R budget
6/6 Free dice (2 Heavy Industry, 1 Tiberium, 3 Orbital)
[] Draft Plan Plants How Do They Work
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2+3) 114/485 (3 dice, 30 R) (Phase 1, 76% chance Phase 2, 0.33% chance Phase 3)
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 159/380 (2 dice, 50 R) (Phase 2, 12% chance Phase 3)
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 2 Free Dice, +34 bonus, 240 R)
--[] 2nd Gen. CC Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/305 (2 dice, 40 R) (Phase 2)
--[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/485 (5 dice, 200 R) (91% chance)
-[] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, 75 R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1105 (3 dice, 60 R) (82% chance)
--[] Adaptive Clothing Development 0/60 (1 die, 15 R) (90% chance)
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29 bonus, 55 R)
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/820 (3 dice, 15 R) (3/7 median)
--[] Spider Cotton Plantations (Phase 2) 60/170 (2 dice, 30 R) (97% chance)
--[] Tarberry Plantations (Phase 3+4) 0/140 (1 die, 10 R) (80% Phase 3, 10% Phase 4)
-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice + 1 Free die, +39 bonus, 225 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 (1 die, 25 R) (98% chance)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/205 (3 dice, 90 R) (94% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/195 (2 dice, 50 R) (98% chance)
-[] Orbital (7/7 Dice + 3 Free die + EREWHON!!!, +34 bonus, 230 R)
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1035 (3 dice, 60 R) (1.2% chance, 1-2 dice remaining)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520 (4 dice, 80 R) (Phase 4, 3.5/11 median to Phase 5)
--[] Hospital Bay 0/315 (2+E dice, 60 R) (12% chance, median result 245/305)
--[] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 (1 die, 30 R) (75% chance)
-[] Services (4/4 Dice + AA Die, +35 bonus, 105 R)
--[] University Program Updates 137/250 (1 die, 15 R) (38% chance)
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/360 (2 dice, 60 R) (2/4 median)
--[] Library Enhancement Programs 0/185 (1+AA die, 30 R) (22% chance)
-[] Military (7/7 Dice + AA Die, +31 bonus, 160 R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/350 (3 dice, 60 R) (75% chance)
--[] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/180 (1+AA dice, 30 R) (23% chance)
--[] Island Class Assault Ship Deployment 0/155 (2 dice, 50 R) (71% chance)
--[] Modular Rapid Assembly Prototype Factory 0/300 (1 die, 20 R) (1/3.5 median)
-[] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus)
--[] Administrative Assistance: Stealth Disruptors
--[] Administrative Assistance: Library Enhancement Programs
Similar to Simon's plan. Differences: trades Dairy Farms and 2 dice on Reforestation for a die on tarberries and more Spider Cotton. Also moves a die from SADN and Stealth Disruptors to the Islands. Given how long their lead time is I'd like to get them rolling for any potential shenanigans in a Plan or two.
6/6 Free dice (2 Heavy Industry, 1 Tiberium, 3 Orbital)
[] Draft Plan Plants How Do They Work
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2+3) 114/485 (3 dice, 30 R) (Phase 1, 76% chance Phase 2, 0.33% chance Phase 3)
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 159/380 (2 dice, 50 R) (Phase 2, 12% chance Phase 3)
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 2 Free Dice, +34 bonus, 240 R)
--[] 2nd Gen. CC Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/305 (2 dice, 40 R) (Phase 2)
--[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/485 (5 dice, 200 R) (91% chance)
-[] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, 75 R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1105 (3 dice, 60 R) (82% chance)
--[] Adaptive Clothing Development 0/60 (1 die, 15 R) (90% chance)
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29 bonus, 55 R)
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/820 (3 dice, 15 R) (3/7 median)
--[] Spider Cotton Plantations (Phase 2) 60/170 (2 dice, 30 R) (97% chance)
--[] Tarberry Plantations (Phase 3+4) 0/140 (1 die, 10 R) (80% Phase 3, 10% Phase 4)
-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice + 1 Free die, +39 bonus, 225 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 (1 die, 25 R) (98% chance)
--[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4) 0/205 (3 dice, 90 R) (94% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/195 (2 dice, 50 R) (98% chance)
-[] Orbital (7/7 Dice + 3 Free die + EREWHON!!!, +34 bonus, 230 R)
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1035 (3 dice, 60 R) (1.2% chance, 1-2 dice remaining)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520 (4 dice, 80 R) (Phase 4, 3.5/11 median to Phase 5)
--[] Hospital Bay 0/315 (2+E dice, 60 R) (12% chance, median result 245/305)
--[] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 (1 die, 30 R) (75% chance)
-[] Services (4/4 Dice + AA Die, +35 bonus, 105 R)
--[] University Program Updates 137/250 (1 die, 15 R) (38% chance)
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/360 (2 dice, 60 R) (2/4 median)
--[] Library Enhancement Programs 0/185 (1+AA die, 30 R) (22% chance)
-[] Military (7/7 Dice + AA Die, +31 bonus, 160 R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/350 (3 dice, 60 R) (75% chance)
--[] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/180 (1+AA dice, 30 R) (23% chance)
--[] Island Class Assault Ship Deployment 0/155 (2 dice, 50 R) (71% chance)
--[] Modular Rapid Assembly Prototype Factory 0/300 (1 die, 20 R) (1/3.5 median)
-[] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus)
--[] Administrative Assistance: Stealth Disruptors
--[] Administrative Assistance: Library Enhancement Programs
Similar to Simon's plan. Differences: trades Dairy Farms and 2 dice on Reforestation for a die on tarberries and more Spider Cotton. Also moves a die from SADN and Stealth Disruptors to the Islands. Given how long their lead time is I'd like to get them rolling for any potential shenanigans in a Plan or two.
- Location
- USA
I mean... yes?
My point was kinda that we have done the stuff that would improve CRP. The next step would be to actually set CRP up to get the improvements into action.
Right now all we have is the process developed and some baseline CRP in emergency food storage. I suppose some improvements might be baked in at this point but I wouldn't expect to hear about anything until we actually did the main CRP projects.
Sorry if I implied that CRP is currently at a improved level. I meant to say that we have done the actions that would lead to its improvement so it wouldn't still be at the baseline stage or at least wouldn't be there for long once deployed.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
I still think we need Agri-Mech done. 'Cascading efficiencies' sounds quite good.
It may not look like we need more Food, but it is interesting that we don't have a trade option for Food. Perhaps it is in Consumer Goods, perhaps not. Edit: Was meant to say that this may indicate the Parliament does not think we have spare Food for trade. Remember that 0 only means something like 'basic survival'. Our value might look good, but we know that food diversity and availability is still poor relative to pre-war conditions.
We will also be using a lot of that excess food generation for Dairy Ranches, livestock farms and Food Stockpiles.
Yes, I do not think we are done with Food Stockpiles yet. 30 points was considered a mid-range goal in the last Plan (before the massive refugee wave), and we are sitting here with only 29 points. Parliament will be expecting us to increase this reserve without them having to stick a boot up our butts.
The potential for bonuses to improved mechanization of non-Food producing crops should also be considered. We have a lot of Reforestation to do, and we employed someone who would love to improve on our non-food crop outputs. I doubt people like manually picking Tarberries in open fields.
Abandoning the project when it is 2 dice and 30 R away from completion makes little sense.
Why are we not deploying Infantry Recon Support Drones?
ZOCOM only have Decent confidence, yet we are going to be pushing them with RZ abatement and Karachi.
Their main shortage at the moment is 'people', but we can address that by giving them drones. This is what we were doing for the Air Force.
At 2 dice and 20R (or maybe slightly more), this project is a steal. Why would we not want to give ZOCOM safer Recon capabilities? This seems ideal for heading into potential enemy territory like the Karachi project involves as well.
It may not look like we need more Food, but it is interesting that we don't have a trade option for Food. Perhaps it is in Consumer Goods, perhaps not. Edit: Was meant to say that this may indicate the Parliament does not think we have spare Food for trade. Remember that 0 only means something like 'basic survival'. Our value might look good, but we know that food diversity and availability is still poor relative to pre-war conditions.
We will also be using a lot of that excess food generation for Dairy Ranches, livestock farms and Food Stockpiles.
Yes, I do not think we are done with Food Stockpiles yet. 30 points was considered a mid-range goal in the last Plan (before the massive refugee wave), and we are sitting here with only 29 points. Parliament will be expecting us to increase this reserve without them having to stick a boot up our butts.
The potential for bonuses to improved mechanization of non-Food producing crops should also be considered. We have a lot of Reforestation to do, and we employed someone who would love to improve on our non-food crop outputs. I doubt people like manually picking Tarberries in open fields.
Abandoning the project when it is 2 dice and 30 R away from completion makes little sense.
Why are we not deploying Infantry Recon Support Drones?
ZOCOM only have Decent confidence, yet we are going to be pushing them with RZ abatement and Karachi.
Their main shortage at the moment is 'people', but we can address that by giving them drones. This is what we were doing for the Air Force.
At 2 dice and 20R (or maybe slightly more), this project is a steal. Why would we not want to give ZOCOM safer Recon capabilities? This seems ideal for heading into potential enemy territory like the Karachi project involves as well.
Last edited:
- Location
- Wall Gazing
I'm fine swapping the islands for the Infantry Drones, that would give them a 58% chance of finishing this turn, before the cost reductions from Alloys 4.
Shadows
Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods
- Location
- USS Civilian, DDG-214
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Alright, my provisional plan proposal:
[] Draft Plan Karachi Shield v3
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2) 114/548 (3 dice, 30 R) (Phase 1, 76% Phase 2)
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 159/380 (2 dice, 50 R) (Phase 2, 12% Phase 3)
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 3 Free Dice, +34 bonus, 270 R)
--[] 2nd Gen. CC Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/305 (2 dice, 40 R) (Phase 2, expect ~100/295 to 150/295 on Phase 3)
--[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/485 (5 dice, 200 R) (91% chance)
--[] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories (New) 0/595 (1 dice, 30R)
-[] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, 75 R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1105 (3 dice, 60 R) (82% chance)
--[] Adaptive Clothing Development 0/60 (1 die, 15 R) (90% chance)
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29 bonus, 50 R)
--[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 83/235 2 dice 30R 70%
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/805 (4 dice, 20 R)
-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice, +39 bonus, 225 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 (1 die, 25 R) (98% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/195 (2 dice, 50 R) (98% chance)
--[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 2 dice 70R 75%
-[] Orbital (7/7 Dice + 3 Free die + EREWHON!!!, +34 bonus, 230 R)
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1035 (4 dice, 80 R)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520 (3+AA dice, 80 R) (Phase 4, 3.5/11 median to Phase 5)
--[] Hospital Bay 0/315 (2+E dice, 60 R) (12% chance, median result 245/305)
--[] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 (1 die, 30 R) (75% chance)
-[] Services (4/4 Dice, +35 bonus, 90 R)
--[] University Program Updates 137/250 (1 die, 15 R) (38% chance)
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/360 (2 dice, 60 R)
--[] Library Enhancement Programs 0/185 (1 die, 15 R)
-[] Military (7 dice + AA, +31, 150R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/345 3+AA dice 80R 90%
--[] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) 56/230 2 dice 40R 45%
--[] Unmanned Support Ground Vehicle Development 0/80 1 die 20R 57%
--[] Infantry Recon Support Drone Deployment 0/170 1 dice 10R
-[] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus)
--[] Administrative Assistance: GDSS Shala
--[] Administrative Assistance: SADN
I haven't bothered with calculating the reductions much at all because I don't see a point for the purpose of just doing an outline
Depending on what exactly ends up being the progress requirement for SADN4 I may move that AA dice to the recon drones.
[] Draft Plan Karachi Shield v3
-[] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 80 R)
--[] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1+2) 114/548 (3 dice, 30 R) (Phase 1, 76% Phase 2)
--[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 159/380 (2 dice, 50 R) (Phase 2, 12% Phase 3)
-[] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 3 Free Dice, +34 bonus, 270 R)
--[] 2nd Gen. CC Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 263/305 (2 dice, 40 R) (Phase 2, expect ~100/295 to 150/295 on Phase 3)
--[] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 5) 136/485 (5 dice, 200 R) (91% chance)
--[] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories (New) 0/595 (1 dice, 30R)
-[] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus, 75 R)
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 883/1105 (3 dice, 60 R) (82% chance)
--[] Adaptive Clothing Development 0/60 (1 die, 15 R) (90% chance)
-[] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29 bonus, 50 R)
--[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 83/235 2 dice 30R 70%
--[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 252/805 (4 dice, 20 R)
-[] Tiberium (7/7 dice, +39 bonus, 225 R)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 52/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-9 East Australia) 59/85 (1 die, 30 R) (100% chance)
--[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 5) 158/210 (1 die, 25 R) (98% chance)
--[] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 1) 82/195 (2 dice, 50 R) (98% chance)
--[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 2 dice 70R 75%
-[] Orbital (7/7 Dice + 3 Free die + EREWHON!!!, +34 bonus, 230 R)
--[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 643/1035 (4 dice, 80 R)
--[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 486/520 (3+AA dice, 80 R) (Phase 4, 3.5/11 median to Phase 5)
--[] Hospital Bay 0/315 (2+E dice, 60 R) (12% chance, median result 245/305)
--[] Life Support Processor Development 0/80 (1 die, 30 R) (75% chance)
-[] Services (4/4 Dice, +35 bonus, 90 R)
--[] University Program Updates 137/250 (1 die, 15 R) (38% chance)
--[] Cosmetic Biosculpting 0/360 (2 dice, 60 R)
--[] Library Enhancement Programs 0/185 (1 die, 15 R)
-[] Military (7 dice + AA, +31, 150R)
--[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 4) 125/345 3+AA dice 80R 90%
--[] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) 56/230 2 dice 40R 45%
--[] Unmanned Support Ground Vehicle Development 0/80 1 die 20R 57%
--[] Infantry Recon Support Drone Deployment 0/170 1 dice 10R
-[] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice, +29 bonus)
--[] Administrative Assistance: GDSS Shala
--[] Administrative Assistance: SADN
I haven't bothered with calculating the reductions much at all because I don't see a point for the purpose of just doing an outline
Depending on what exactly ends up being the progress requirement for SADN4 I may move that AA dice to the recon drones.
Last edited:
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Maybe what we need for better CRP is to build the Experimental Crops Bay, since CRP just tastes so bad that it's only safe to experiment with it off-planet.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm. Three dice on reforestation is dipping down to the minimum of my comfort zone, but I could see compromising on four on reforestation and two on something else. Because I do consider "Phase 1 by election day" to be worth trying to accomplish.
The Islands would definitely be on my to-do list, but so are the stealth disruptors, and with the navy's confidence "trending High," I figured on prioritizing technology that when rolled out will affect multiple platforms.
Three dice on SADN... Well, I can work with a 75% chance of clearing Phase 4, given the possible lack of rollover and certain lack of Plan requirement to continue. I'll decide what my 'floor' on SADN dice is when I know the project cost for sure and after reading this turn's Results to get some more feedback on how the system is playing out.
I don't think making people eat garbage-tier CRP is a prerequisite for developing better CRP. And if it is, then quite frankly we may want to consider not pursuing this because angering the voting public is a bad idea. Remember that Political Support is support from politicians; it doesn't perfectly correlate to public opinion and the public is particularly hostile to being expected to eat really bad food when there's no obvious need. I'm fine with expanding the E-CRP program, but that's different.
And as for animal feed... animals don't eat it. It tastes so vile that lab rats and so on will avoid it except when literally starving to death, as I understand it.
Hmmrm. That's a fair point.
Though it may also be that Nod is actually self-sufficient in bulk foodstuffs and isn't interested in importing, but is interested in importing the tasty stuff.
Because the drones don't really address ZOCOM's fundamental problem, and they've told us so. Remember, their big trouble isn't fighting Nod (where the drones are very helpful), it's when fighting tiberium (where they are less so). And the big bottleneck that was making things difficult for them was that they needed Ground Force power armor units to be stood up to take over many of their responsibilities in the Yellow Zone and 'shallow Red' areas, which was a problem we addressed.
The infantry drones are merely one of a large number of disparate "this would be good to have and brace our force structure against future problems" projects. We have a lot of those.
You ask: "Why would we not want to give ZOCOM safer Recon capabilities?" My reply is "why would we not want to do any of literally 100 dice worth of assorted military projects on the docket?" We want all of them, but we can't do all at once. Infantry drones are on the short list (read: things likely to actually get done in the next year), but that doesn't mean it represents some kind of great personal failing that we haven't just now done them.
ZOCOM is, after all, perfectly free to mark them as "High Priority," but they do not, and seem instead to have been putting their priority marker on Ground Force Zone Armor, for the reasons discussed above.
You sure you wanna skip the super glacier mines?I haven't bothered with calculating the reductions much at all because I don't see a point for the purpose of just doing an outline
Depending on what exactly ends up being the progress requirement for SADN4 I may move that AA dice to the recon drones.
- Location
- USA
I mean, we were explicitly told that there were a couple paths to improvement and the first was to actually put it into production so that people could be actively working with it and developing it. We've pretty much done everything else that was mentioned.
I'm not sure I would call it making people eat it since it is just additional food. It doesn't take any current food from anyone. If people are fine with there current type of food and portions then they wouldn't have to eat it if they didn't want to. ...I assume.
I feel like there is some kind of disconnect between us in this discussion.
I'm like "Alright! A way to reduce food waste to nearly nothing and provide a additional source of food that we have already done the projects that will lead to improvements. It doesn't remove anything from the food supply at all. It's purely additional food if someone wants bigger meals. And we have political points we need to use. This is the perfect time to do this!"
And you seem to be taking the complete opposite track from me. That it's not good food and people won't like it. Any potential improvements aren't worth the pubic unhappiness and political cost. We should never do this.
I guess we just have very different viewpoints about this particular project.
So... agree to disagree?
Last edited:
Shadows
Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods
- Location
- USS Civilian, DDG-214
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Intensely. I don't know if the Alloys 6 buff will apply retroactively and as the SGMs are our biggest single point source of R... well. I'd rather wait and be wrong than grab them now and miss out
E-CRP I'm okay with doing more, because if anyone has to eat it, we're all fucked anyhow. Regular CRP can go die in a fire. Or shoved down Mehretu's throat. Who is then killed in a fire.
--
Regarding ZOCOM, I would rather throw resources towards Zrbite Phase 2 than drones. OTOH, drones would be useful with GFZA in shallow RZ/YZ/etc. Perhaps go for drones as part of our prep for Karachi, rather than "ZOCOM needs this"?
I'll just point out on Gen 2 repulsor plates - GDI has already taken the effort to do the whole hover thing before with combat units, and they had to make do with air cushion tech. It kinda sucked. Gen 2 plates could mean a Hover MLRS Mk II to replace Pitbull, Slingshot Mk II, Shatterer Mk II (unless it was phased out for the Pacifier), Pacifier Mk II... and elimination of the air cushion system with a less than reliable record in ion storms.
I wonder if we could convert our LCACs to gen 2 plates and still carry Mammoth Mk IIIs, or even Mastodons. For that matter... do we have any Orca Command Vehicles still around that we can play with using gen 2 plates?
--
As for Alloy Foundries, the stuff I can think of that could have an effect on harvesting income is stuff like harvesting components or harvester parts. Like, tiberium resistant, long lasting parts. The increase in harvesting income would in effect be a reduction in operating costs for repairs/replacement of parts. If that's the type of stuff we'd be getting out of the final alloy phase, there's zero reason to believe that we'd decide to never share those parts with pre-existing harvesting operations, rather than send the spare parts, etc wherever they're needed.
Can anyone think of something that could come out of the Alloy Foundries that would not be "backwards compatible" with pre-existing harvesting ops?
--
Regarding ZOCOM, I would rather throw resources towards Zrbite Phase 2 than drones. OTOH, drones would be useful with GFZA in shallow RZ/YZ/etc. Perhaps go for drones as part of our prep for Karachi, rather than "ZOCOM needs this"?
I'll just point out on Gen 2 repulsor plates - GDI has already taken the effort to do the whole hover thing before with combat units, and they had to make do with air cushion tech. It kinda sucked. Gen 2 plates could mean a Hover MLRS Mk II to replace Pitbull, Slingshot Mk II, Shatterer Mk II (unless it was phased out for the Pacifier), Pacifier Mk II... and elimination of the air cushion system with a less than reliable record in ion storms.
I wonder if we could convert our LCACs to gen 2 plates and still carry Mammoth Mk IIIs, or even Mastodons. For that matter... do we have any Orca Command Vehicles still around that we can play with using gen 2 plates?
--
As for Alloy Foundries, the stuff I can think of that could have an effect on harvesting income is stuff like harvesting components or harvester parts. Like, tiberium resistant, long lasting parts. The increase in harvesting income would in effect be a reduction in operating costs for repairs/replacement of parts. If that's the type of stuff we'd be getting out of the final alloy phase, there's zero reason to believe that we'd decide to never share those parts with pre-existing harvesting operations, rather than send the spare parts, etc wherever they're needed.
Can anyone think of something that could come out of the Alloy Foundries that would not be "backwards compatible" with pre-existing harvesting ops?
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
The last update mentioned that while we can produce lots of new alloys, they aren't covering everything we already use. It may be that we don't have tib-resistant alloys that have the material properties that we need to reproduce all the parts we would need to replace.
- Location
- USA
I think it was said in a earlier phase that the new alloys were tiberium resistant.
- Location
- MSC
Intensely. I don't know if the Alloys 6 buff will apply retroactively and as the SGMs are our biggest single point source of R... well. I'd rather wait and be wrong than grab them now and miss out
Well, we can throw dice at Coordinated Abatement, experiments and refits while we wait for Alloys.
That said, should we start Deep Glaciers on the same quarter Alloys 6 finishes or a quarter after?
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Yes, but then a later phase tells us that not every alloy we use can be duplicated with a tiberium resistant version.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
I'm willing to compromise to 4 Reforestation dice, with the remaining two going to Agri Mech for cascading efficiencies or Spider Cotton for the always in need Capital Goods.
The Islands are very much a long term investment to me, because Naval Strategy is Build Strategy. If we wait until the Navy says it needs them, we'll be in the same boat we were during the Regency War, except worse cause of the lead time. The sooner we get building the sooner we'll have them. I do acknowledge that in order to have any Stealth Disruptors actually in the field prior to a Karachi Go date of Q4 2064 we would need to finish them this turn. That does change my math a little, but I'll have to think about it. I don't have any immediate objections to putting 2+AA dice on stealth disruptors to help ensure we get them, but it also seems a little bit excessive.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The E-CRP production chain really should address that. Expanding E-CRP capacity further would not bother me. That should be more than enough for GDI to justify a well-funded research program to replace CRP with a more palatable replacement.
See, I understand that you want to drop the matter, and if you want to get in one more reply at me and then leave with the last word, fine.
But I want to explain myself properly.
...
We've been explicitly told during the last round of discussion over this that the Agriculture CRP project (hence A-CRP) will not be contributing to our +Food surplus if people aren't eating any of it. Which makes sense.
For purposes of food being a meaningful contribution to our +Food surplus, someone or something must be eating it. Otherwise, we could crank our +Food surplus through the roof by just opening up some gravel pits, mining gravel, bagging it, and calling it "food additive." After all, it's free food! No one has to eat it! Except no one can eat it or is eating it, so such a project would accomplish nothing. It'd be +0 Food. CRP that literally no one was eating would have about the same mechanical effect, I think.
So to do A-CRP and have it contribute to our +Food surplus, we would logically need someone to be eating CRP. Which is a political nonstarter, especially in an era when we've had actual large political demonstrations trying to force us to improve the diversity and quality of GDI's diet further (which was not bad, but... restricted... in the late 2050s).
Anything you mix this in will taste like you mixed garbage into it. Anything you use this as an additive for will taste like you used garbage as an additive. Until and unless the stuff meaningfully improves, it's so unpalatable that it can barely, if at all, be used as animal feed. Because if even hogs won't eat this stuff until they're starving to death, you can't feed it to hogs being raised for meat, because they won't gain weight and will have no meat on their bones. Even to offset the -12 Food or so that our livestock are eating, it's a nonstarter.
My point is, this is the kind of technology that isn't ready for a politically unpopular mass rollout. It won't live up to its promise and value. Maybe an unpopular mass rollout would force our scientific community to work harder fixing the problems, but that's not worth enough to justify the unpopularity of the mass rollout, especially in a democracy that doesn't actually have a food security crisis.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
👇We're at Phase 4 of Strategic Food Stockpiles. That is -12 Food going into the Stockpiles instead of being on the market.
The Caloric Reclamation Processor, if done completely, will give us 12 Food which we can assume will go into storage because no one wants to eat that while there are other options. That nets us -25 PS. We don't have the option of keeping CRP on the Market @Simon_Jester.
Edit: Fixed some punctuation errors.
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The closest analogue to that situation would be the rollout of tendril harvesters, where we had a big refit project that scaled with the size of our existing harvesting operations. If we'd had an extra 65 RpT of income to be retrofitted, that project would have been slightly more difficult... but we'd have had the 65 RpT to console us.Intensely. I don't know if the Alloys 6 buff will apply retroactively and as the SGMs are our biggest single point source of R... well. I'd rather wait and be wrong than grab them now and miss out
The way I see it, it's going to be at least two turns, possibly three, before we can get the last phase of foundries online. And we don't know how large the bonus will be. I'd rather not delay major projects for a speculative boost to come earlier without need to tack +50 Progress onto a giant refit megaproject. I just don't think it'll pay off properly. Especially when deliberately curtailing our income-generating actions means we also have to accept delay in things like "fund InOps better."
The Phase 2 Zrbite guns are such a huge, exhaustive military megaproject that I'm pretty sure they're not just for ZOCOM. I'm pretty sure they're intended for a general rollout for the armed forces as a whole.
The infantry drones are the kind of project that might help a little with Karachi, but the deployment timeline makes it questionable whether it's worth worrying about it on those grounds.
Although realistically if we can get clear of SADN, my list of projects to do in the short term looks like
Stealth Disruptors
Seattle Frigate Yard
Island-Class Assault Ship Deployment
Infantry Drones
Orca Wingman Drones
Each of those is a 2-3 die project, so wrapping up the lot of them shouldn't take more than about two turns once SADN Phase 4 is done. With so much happening so fast, from a practical standpoint it hardly matters which projects get done in what order. Like... just not that important, really.
And in my book, once that wave of stuff is taken care of, we start working on Transorbital Fighters, the NovaHawk, some MARV hubs where and as they can be squeezed in, the next-generation AFV designs, particle beam research if possible, and the Governor-A refit (which may thrive on having particle guns as an option, we dunno).
By that phase, we'll hopefully have the hoverplate tech available, to say the least, so we can experiment with it in fighter aircraft and AFVs on the ground.
Structural components. Like, whole buildings made using the alloys, things like that. It might require some significant retrofitting to take full advantage of that. But yeah, my gut instinct is that it's going to be like T-Glass.
The thing is, I'm not planning to delay the Islands indefinitely, I'm planning to delay them like... one turn. Maybe two, but if two, the only reason is because the Navy's dice would be focused on getting the Seattle frigate yard up and running first, which scratches some of the same itches anyway.
I'm serious, the only reason there aren't Navy projects in my plan draft for this turn is because I still expect SADN Phase 4 to be sucking a lot of the oxygen out of the room, and there will be Navy projects on the menu in my 2063Q4 draft if present trends continue.
Last edited:
Shadows
Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods
- Location
- USS Civilian, DDG-214
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We'd not be delaying anything - because in 2-ish turns we're going to have Alloys 6. We'll do other +R things in the meantime, because there's no opportunity cost in it. We already have issues spending our full allotment of R - and once Alloys are capped off, that gets further exacerbated, as they're our biggest ticket item. (At the moment.)
And, for the record, we don't need to 'fund InOps better' per what said department expects until the end of 2064. We just did fund them better. Early, even! About... two turns early. I think they too can wait until 2064Q1. Like, I get that we panic-funded them early because Nod got lucky and deleted some of our dice. I'm fully down with funding them more! And soon! Preferably about 2064Q1! But for all that, we're not in a rush.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Eh. Personally, I'm a big fan of us trying to shovel funds into the civilian economy and InOps rapidly. I want to make sure we actually have those funds in hand before passing them on, but I don't want to hold off on lucrative actions that are sitting there right in front of us for the sake of possibly notionally getting an uncertain-sized upgrade to them for free instead of having to pay for it a little down the line.
Sometimes, the fruit is low-hanging and seems ripe enough, and I think that's the time to reach out and pick it. You're figuring it'll be riper later, and maybe that's true, but eh. I think glacier mining is well worth the dice. If we don't urgently need the money, someone else will- and as I've mentioned, we've got plenty of relatively expensive projects coming down the road soon as the alloy foundries fade.
We can definitely figure out what to do with the money, so I for one want to pursue the mines at this time.
- Location
- USA
I kinda feel like this is approaching it from a totally different angle than I am.
To me the +food is completely unimportant to the actual reality of what CRP is.
It's a miraculous technology that can provide edible food from worthless waste. That's amazing. I would want this now in the real world. Even if it's not good food it can provide hungry people something that could keep them alive. The ability to eliminate wasted food is incredible. And we can improve it! Make it not utter garbage.
I would be fine if it didn't provide any +food and people trampled it into the ground. Just because the tech and its capabilities are that significant.
You are 100% correct that people won't really like the 12 new food. In my mind that is completely fair. If the improvements go through and it just makes bricks of tasteless substitute ramen, then great, so much the better.
But the technological ability to create edible food from basically nothing would be set up and spread around. And that's the real goal in my mind. That in whatever situation or disaster people can generate SOMETHING to eat. Even in space.
If the price for eliminating food waste and having the ultimate in emergency food in any situation is -25 political points and a population that doesn't particularly want to eat it unless they have no choice, that's a completely fair trade to me.
Others may utterly disagree with me, and fair enough, but I'll bring up potentially doing CRP whenever we need to burn some political capital. The technology is incredible.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Suffice to say that I think there's a disconnect between the A-CRP project, specifically, and our ability to improve CRP into something palatable.
We already have the capacity to use CRP as emergency food or supply it to people who are hungry. That is something we already have. It exists in the background. If the space program wants to take CRP-makers into space for emergency use on the lunar colonies, they can already do that, just like they can take up isolinear computer chips or stuff made out of carbon nanotubes and superconductors and all the other cool science fiction technologies we have.
If people aren't using it, it's because the food in question is not palatable. Bad enough that "ah, fuckit, just ship up X thousand cases of MREs" seems like a more practical solution to whatever actual object-level problem they specifically are solving. That will only be solved with R&D, not large scale deployment to where people eat the stuff.
...
You seem to be saying that we should do the A-CRP project to make this R&D happen so that we can use this technology properly. My argument is that if, to the people of GDI as a whole, the existing situation does not justify the R&D... maybe we should just leave the matter be. Maybe this is one of those issues where a theoretically attractive abstract idea that looks good from an armchair isn't worth spending in-universe billions of dollar-equivalents and the time and energy of thousands of people on.