Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

Void Stalker said:
Agri 6/6 75R +29
-[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 0/835 2 dice 10R 0%
-[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 83/235 2 dice 30R 70%
-[] Dairy Ranches (Phase 2) 163/190 1 die 20R 100%
-[] Laboratory Meat Development (new) 0/100 1 die 15R 45%

Hm. Personally I'd favor a more aggressive focus on reforestation. There's some hope of getting Phase 1 done before the election, but only if we push hard in Q2 to get into a good position.

Meanwhile, Agriculture Mechanization is pretty much a pure "numbers go up" project; we have ample supplies of Food for the time being. The lab meat project could arguably wait, but there might be advantages to trying to roll it out before the election in principle. And Dairy Ranches is in the awkward position where building lots and lots of empty domes that we have no cattle to put in just doesn't do us much good. Having the second project phase "finished" seems like a meaningless milestone if the herds don't exist yet. If we're doing it so people can have cheese, it won't make any difference. If we're doing it as a political project, we should do it closer to the election.

Tiberium 7/7 180R +39
-[] AEVA 1 die
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 4) 93/225 2 dice 50R 93%
-[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 2 dice 70R 75%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-2 Eastern North America) 49/90 1 die 30R 100%
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (Blue Zones) 0/85 1 die 30R 70%

I'd personally favor shifting the dice off the refits (which are not urgent) to build more inhibitors and/or put a third die on the border offensives.

Alternatively we could work on the containment lines, which is not at all a bad idea.

Low investment in +RpT projects, plus the expensive refinery refits, in the same turn that we do an InOps handover, seems like a shaky combination. Sure, the refineries are a plan goal, but so is Red Zone mitigation, income increase, and inhibitor rollout.

Services 4/4 90R +35
-[] Advanced Electronic Video Assistant Deployment (Tiberium) 0/200 3 dice +1 Tib 60R 92%
-[] Autodoc Systems Development (New) 52/120 1 die 30R 88%
Military 7/7+1 free 165R +31
-[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 2+3) 149/605 6 dice 120R 100% 75% for Phase 3
-[] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) (Phase 6) 127/160 1 die 20R 100%
-[] Combat Laser Development 38/80 1 die 25R 100%

If we're going to do an immediate -10 Capital Goods handover to the market, I personally don't like the idea of also doing AEVAs, because the combination eats something like -14 Capital Goods and blows through a lot of our surplus.

I don't want to disrespect the Military plan, but if it was me, I'd be putting yet another die on SADN to be more confident. If we're going ahead with Karachi in 2064Q4 (the latest feasible date), then this is actually a very critical time period in which to get the construction done, because the Phase 3 defense sites are by far the ones most likely to cover major targets al-Isfahani might actually nuke. I want to roll those out next turn and I'm willing to spend heavily for confidence of making that happen. 75% is... not bad, but it's not as good as I'd like, especially when rollover into Phase 4 is not a bad thing because that's a Plan commitment anyway.

Void Stalker · Mar 25, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
Hm. Personally I'd favor a more aggressive focus on reforestation. There's some hope of getting Phase 1 done before the election, but only if we push hard in Q2 to get into a good position.

Meanwhile, Agriculture Mechanization is pretty much a pure "numbers go up" project; we have ample supplies of Food for the time being. The lab meat project could arguably wait, but there might be advantages to trying to roll it out before the election in principle. And Dairy Ranches is in the awkward position where building lots and lots of empty domes that we have no cattle to put in just doesn't do us much good. Having the second project phase "finished" seems like a meaningless milestone if the herds don't exist yet. If we're doing it so people can have cheese, it won't make any difference. If we're doing it as a political project, we should do it closer to the election.

I originally had 4 dice on Reforestation but since we had more R this turn I moved some off to try and knock off other projects while having the spare R to do so. Agri Mech though is a way to get food without using labor and helps offsets the cost of dairy ranches and leaves us open to do more strategic food prep. Dairy Ranches is a plan goal, picks us up some PS and doing it know means it is checked off our list and also means that if we ever get into a crunch for R we can just dump all our dice on reforestation. I also favor doing political projects before the election to change the general mood of people and make it seem less like a political move and more of a the Treasury and Government care move.

Simon_Jester said:
I'd personally favor shifting the dice off the refits (which are not urgent) to build more inhibitors and/or put a third die on the border offensives.

Alternatively we could work on the containment lines, which is not at all a bad idea.

Low investment in +RpT projects, plus the expensive refinery refits, in the same turn that we do an InOps handover, seems like a shaky combination. Sure, the refineries are a plan goal, but so is Red Zone mitigation, income increase, and inhibitor rollout.

We have 6 more phases of Refits to chew through and I do not want to have to put a lot of dice into them in a single turn and it improves the ratio for getting STU from our existing tib production, plus inhibitors are fairly energy intensive. As for border offensives I am easing Zocom back in so I dont want to risk a 2nd phase, instead give more time for the GZ units and trainers to expand. And I am rolling over 60 R which is how much we are handing off to InOps, plus we have deep glacier next turn to make up for that income. As it is 2 of 3 inhibitors finish, and if the fusion plants finish we can do the third (and probably an extra 4th) next turn.

Simon_Jester said:
If we're going to do an immediate -10 Capital Goods handover to the market, I personally don't like the idea of also doing AEVAs, because the combination eats something like -14 Capital Goods and blows through a lot of our surplus.

I don't want to disrespect the Military plan, but if it was me, I'd be putting yet another die on SADN to be more confident. If we're going ahead with Karachi in 2064Q4 (the latest feasible date), then this is actually a very critical time period in which to get the construction done, because the Phase 3 defense sites are by far the ones most likely to cover major targets al-Isfahani might actually nuke. I want to roll those out next turn and I'm willing to spend heavily for confidence of making that happen. 75% is... not bad, but it's not as good as I'd like, especially when rollover into Phase 4 is not a bad thing because that's a Plan commitment anyway.

AEVA for Tib is pretty much needed for our tib projects both plan goals required and stuff like Karachi, as it is even with the transfer we have enough to stay over +10 cap goods and outlay next turn would be lower and with Reyjavik finishing should see a tickup. I would say not going for AEVA (Tib) early is actually shooting ourselves in the foot with lost progress given how much we need to do in the category both for plan goals and for general well being of stopping tib from eating us.

As for military 6 dice on SADN makes it easy to finish Phase 4 (and phase 3 if needed) the following turn. We need 1 dice on Steel Talon so that is locked in and we really need to finish the GZ armor to open up the next Set (plan goal, also needed for general military improvement). And free dice are needed where they are, maybe if we had not lost the free dice I could drop one there but at this point we are kind of tied up.

Derpmind · Mar 25, 2023

Void Stalker said:
As for military 6 dice on SADN makes it easy to finish Phase 4 (and phase 3 if needed) the following turn.

We don't know how big Phase 4 is. It could well be significantly larger than the first three phases are.

Void Stalker · Mar 25, 2023

Derpmind said:
We don't know how big Phase 4 is. It could well be significantly larger than the first three phases are.

Oh? I assumed it would be same size as Phase 3 since it is not listed separately. As it is I have no additional dice to move it since the other free dice are on HI and Orbital.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

Void Stalker said:
I originally had 4 dice on Reforestation but since we had more R this turn I moved some off to try and knock off other projects while having the spare R to do so. Agri Mech though is a way to get food without using labor and helps offsets the cost of dairy ranches and leaves us open to do more strategic food prep. Dairy Ranches is a plan goal, picks us up some PS and doing it know means it is checked off our list and also means that if we ever get into a crunch for R we can just dump all our dice on reforestation. I also favor doing political projects before the election to change the general mood of people and make it seem less like a political move and more of a the Treasury and Government care move.

I understand what these projects are for, but I don't agree with the prioritization.

Agriculture Mechanization "offsets the cost of dairy ranches," a cost we are already well positioned to pay whether we complete the mechanization phase or not. There's no rush.

Dairy Ranches Phase 2 has advantages but not much immediate payoff. Also, while I expect it to improve our Political Support, that is, the general willingness of Parliament to accept our wishes, I don't expect it to do much for public opinion in the medium term. In the short term we get a spike from the propaganda value, and in the long term it means more milk and cheese. But in the medium term, because of the limits of herd size, we get neither.

I feel that completing those dairy ranches at this time positions us very well to have the medium-term "no advantage" time come right around the time of the election. So I submit that right now, it won't "change the general mood of people" usefully because it won't actually do anything to accelerate the growth of the dairy product supply. it'll just make a few parliamentarians like us a little better when we have no urgent plans to burn a lot of PS. This is a plan to make more domes, not to make more cows.

We have 6 more phases of Refits to chew through and I do not want to have to put a lot of dice into them in a single turn and it improves the ratio for getting STU from our existing tib production, plus inhibitors are fairly energy intensive. As for border offensives I am easing Zocom back in so I dont want to risk a 2nd phase, instead give more time for the GZ units and trainers to expand. And I am rolling over 60 R which is how much we are handing off to InOps, plus we have deep glacier next turn to make up for that income. As it is 2 of 3 inhibitors finish, and if the fusion plants finish we can do the third (and probably an extra 4th) next turn.

Personally, I'd rather put some extra dice on the Lines (which are shallow Red Zone operations and a better place to put Ground Force zone armor units in place of ZOCOM units anyway) than on the refinery refits. We don't need the STUs that pressingly immediately, and I'm not averse to the idea of spending four dice on the refineries on some future turn instead of two now and two later. That's mostly an aesthetic preference, whereas the benefits of more Red Zone mitigation and +RpT gain are felt right away and the sooner the better.

(One reason I'm not worried about rapid investment in the refineries is that it's not a single giant facility being shocked into existence all at once; it's a dozen or more smaller facilities being built all over the place)

AEVA for Tib is pretty much needed for our tib projects both plan goals required and stuff like Karachi, as it is even with the transfer we have enough to stay over +10 cap goods and outlay next turn would be lower and with Reyjavik finishing should see a tickup. I would say not going for AEVA (Tib) early is actually shooting ourselves in the foot with lost progress given how much we need to do in the category both for plan goals and for general well being of stopping tib from eating us.

Personally I'd be scaling back the current release of Capital Goods to the civilian economy to -5 because of that, though. I could see doing a -10 release, or another AEVA, this turn. Not both, not unless we've actually reached parliament's targets for the Capital Goods stockpile figures.

I know we have more coming from Reykjavik, but I don't like spending Capital Goods we don't yet have.

Also... where is the documentation on us losing a Free die? I'm not disbelieving you, but I don't think it's mentioned in the recent update. I'll check again in a minute.

Derpmind said:
We don't know how big Phase 4 is. It could well be significantly larger than the first three phases are.

It could be, but it'd have to be a lot larger for that to be a major problem.

As long as we get Phase 3 nailed down in the coming 2063Q2 turn, I'm not going to be too worried. It doesn't make us nuke-proof, but no realistic amount of defenses would do that. It does mean that al-Isfahani has to think much more carefully in terms of "how much damage can I actually do by trying to go out in a blaze of glory, and is it worth it?"

Phase 4 is important and work should go on on it, but my main priority is just slamming out Phase 3 so that the defense installations are fully operational in time.

Derpmind · Mar 25, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
It could be, but it'd have to be a lot larger for that to be a major problem.

As long as we get Phase 3 nailed down in the coming 2063Q2 turn, I'm not going to be too worried. It doesn't make us nuke-proof, but no realistic amount of defenses would do that. It does mean that al-Isfahani has to think much more carefully in terms of "how much damage can I actually do by trying to go out in a blaze of glory, and is it worth it?"

Phase 4 is important and work should go on on it, but my main priority is just slamming out Phase 3 so that the defense installations are fully operational in time.

I was only pointing out that Void Stalker's assertion that Phase 4 would be easy to complete may not be true. I don't think we necessarily need Phase 4 anytime soon either.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

Derpmind said:
I was only pointing out that Void Stalker's assertion that Phase 4 would be easy to complete may not be true. I don't think we necessarily need Phase 4 anytime soon either.

Fair enough. We'll see how things shape out- though I say, somewhat tongue in cheek, that this is all the more reason to clear Phase 3 quickly, so we can plan for Phase 4!

Void Stalker · Mar 25, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
Personally I'd be scaling back the current release of Capital Goods to the civilian economy to -5 because of that, though. I could see doing a -10 release, or another AEVA, this turn. Not both, not unless we've actually reached parliament's targets for the Capital Goods stockpile figures.

I know we have more coming from Reykjavik, but I don't like spending Capital Goods we don't yet have.

Also... where is the documentation on us losing a Free die? I'm not disbelieving you, but I don't think it's mentioned in the recent update. I'll check again in a minute.

Free dice was from the assassinations, someone posted it in thread and they said it was from the QM on discord. Also where we first learned we lost our LCI adviser.

As for cap goods, we need to drop 20 to the economy and the most we can do is 10 so that is 2 dice, doing 5 this time is meaning we are up to 3 dice. And I am not spending cap goods we do not have, we are over 20 and we would still end up over +10 from the plan if everything finishes. For Q3 Infra, HI, LCI, Agri, Tib and orbital would not have any new projects with cap goods. Which leaves the 1 for regional hospital in services and the 1 for one phase of GZ armor in mil which equals our per turn gain and this is before Reyjavik likely finishing.

Simon_Jester said:
Personally, I'd rather put some extra dice on the Lines (which are shallow Red Zone operations and a better place to put Ground Force zone armor units in place of ZOCOM units anyway) than on the refinery refits. We don't need the STUs that pressingly immediately, and I'm not averse to the idea of spending four dice on the refineries on some future turn instead of two now and two later. That's mostly an aesthetic preference, whereas the benefits of more Red Zone mitigation and +RpT gain are felt right away and the sooner the better.

(One reason I'm not worried about rapid investment in the refineries is that it's not a single giant facility being shocked into existence all at once; it's a dozen or more smaller facilities being built all over the place)

Issue though is that means a lot of refineries would be worked on at the same time which depending on what our surplus capacity is that could be an issue. And given how long it will take to work through the refits getting several phases done now lets us be more flexible later in the plan in fitting in the rest.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

Void Stalker said:
Free dice was from the assassinations, someone posted it in thread and they said it was from the QM on discord.

I was just surprised it didn't show up in the Results post.

As for cap goods, we need to drop 20 to the economy and the most we can do is 10 so that is 2 dice, doing 5 this time is meaning we are up to 3 dice.

Bureaucracy dice are super-abundant; I'm not going to feel bad about spending more Bureaucracy dice than necessary on the Capital Goods handovers. Especially since we're under a mandate to do something with them every turn and security reviews are apparently no longer an option.

Issue though is that means a lot of refineries would be worked on at the same time which depending on what our surplus capacity is that could be an issue. And given how long it will take to work through the refits getting several phases done now lets us be more flexible later in the plan in fitting in the rest.

Fair, I suppose, but at that point we're getting very much down into the weeds as to benefits, whereas "do more Red Zone mitigation sooner and have more money" are a bit more concrete.

bigking321 · Mar 25, 2023

If we lost a free dice then some of our goals may be incredibly difficult to hit now.

I'm looking at you, 20k orbital population.

Void Stalker · Mar 25, 2023

bigking321 said:
If we lost a free dice then some of our goals may be incredibly difficult to hit now.

I'm looking at you, 20k orbital population.

One reason I currently plan to put 4 dice on each station. Since last I heard we need to finish both to unlock further stations and we need those further stations to be able to house enough people. Hopefully between UAlloy and keeping Orbital active we can hit it but the flex room has been reduced.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

bigking321 said:
If we lost a free dice then some of our goals may be incredibly difficult to hit now.

I'm looking at you, 20k orbital population.

We were never really counting on firing all our Free dice onto that endlessly. That's a big part of why, so far, we haven't been.

Check out Doruma's projections for more information.

doruma1920 · Mar 25, 2023

bigking321 said:
If we lost a free dice then some of our goals may be incredibly difficult to hit now.

I'm looking at you, 20k orbital population.

It doesn't make things easier, no, but the current projections, which assumes the production of new habitation stations or a lunar city will provide a Progress / Space Pop equal to the average Habitation Module prior to the Alloy cost reductions (350 Progress / 1k Space Pop), have us needing 5 Free Dice total in Orbital.

This comes with a lot of asterisks because we don't know what those Stations/Cities are actually going to look like. But it is the best info we have at the moment, and still have some conservative adjustments incorporated.

I'm currently waiting for the new update to drop to ensure the Projection is accurate, but from what we know right now, we aren't in a terrible spot. Its not good, it has significantly reduced our buffer margin, but it is not crisis. Yet.

Lightwhispers · Mar 25, 2023

Void Stalker said:
@Lightwhispers you have columbia at 146/1045 but we hit 324 progress. Shala is right though (only two I checked since I was curious how U Alloy shifted things)

Fixed that, and I think everything else is correct. Thanks for the poke on that.

HousePet · Mar 25, 2023

I'd certainly feel much more confident once we get some numbers for the next round of Stations.

Or possibly more panicky, depending on the numbers.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

HousePet said:
I'd certainly feel much more confident once we get some numbers for the next round of Stations.

Or possibly more panicky, depending on the numbers.

Yeah, but the numbers would have to be extremely unfavorable (to the point where it would imply that the orbital evacuation victory condition we could have voted for at game start was borderline a trap option) for the 20k target to become unachievable.

HousePet · Mar 25, 2023

The 20k promise specifically said "pushing the Initiative's abilities to develop and colonize space to the absolute limits".
Therefore, I do not expect it to be comfortably achievable.

F0lkL0re · Mar 25, 2023

Hey @Simon_Jester would you mind giving this proto plan a look over?

[] Plan
-[]Infrastructure 5/5 75R
-[] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 5) 4 dice 60R 93%
(Progress 39/280: 15 resources per die) (+4 Logistics)
-[] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2) 1 die 25R 28%
(Progress 110/225: 25 resources per die) (+5 Logistics)
-[]Heavy Industry 5/5 160R
-[] U-Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 4) 2 dice 80R %
(Progress 32/510: 40 resources per die) (-4 Energy, -2 STUs) (5% discount on many projects)
-[] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2) 1 die 20R 0%
(Progress 75/310: 20 resources per Die) (+19 Energy) (-1 Labor) (No more than three dice can be spent on 2nd Generation CCF per turn)
-[] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 5) 2 dice + 2 free dice 60R 0%
(Progress 36/2040: 15 resources per die) (+35 Capital Goods, +16 Consumer Goods, -2 Labor, -8 Energy) (Required for further AI projects.)
-[]Light and Chemical Industry 4/4 80R
-[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 4 dice 80R 0%
(Progress 553/1120: 20 resources per die) (+8 Capital Goods, +4 Energy) (Reduces cost of mech and zone armor projects)
-[]Agriculture 6/6 60R
-[] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 4 dice 20R 0%
(Progress 0/835: 5 resources per die)
-[] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 2 dice 30R 70%
(Progress 83/235: 15 resources per die) (+12 Food, -1 Energy, -1 Capital Goods)
-[]Tiberium 7/7 200R
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 4) 4 dice 100R 100% (stage 5 67%)
(Progress 93/225: 25 resources per die) (Additional income trickle [15-35 resources]) (3 points of Red Zone Mitigation) (+2 Energy)
-[] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 2 dice 70R 75%
(Progress 65/230: 35 resources per die) (Converts 450 processing capacity)
-[] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment
--[] Blue Zone 2 1 free die 30R 100%
(Progress 49/85: 30 resources per die) (-3 Energy) (+2 Yellow Zone Abatement) (1 Political Support)
-[]Orbital 7/7 210R
-[] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 3 dice + Erewhon die 80R 0%
(Progress 324/1045: 20 resources per die) (2k Permanent residents) (+3 available Bays) (10 Political Support)
-[] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 4 dice 80R 92%
(Progress 229/520: 20 resources per die) (.3k permanent residents) (+4 Food, +2 Consumer Goods) (15 Political Support) (+2 available Bays)
-[] Gravitic Shipyard 1 free die 30R 100%
(Progress 392/425: 30 resources per die) (-2 STU, -1 Capital Goods)
-[] Fusion Shipyard 1 free die 20R 100%
(Progress 446/475: 20 resources per die)
-[]Services 4/4 110R
-[] Regional Hospital Expansions (Phase 1) 2 dice 50R 42%
(Progress 85/280: 25 resources per die) (+4 Health) (-1 Energy, -1 Capital Goods, -1 Labor)
-[] Autodoc Systems Development 2 dice 60R 100%
(Progress 52/120: 30 resources per die)
-[]Military 7/7 205R
-[] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 2) 6 dice + 1 admin die 140R 100% (Phase 3 90%)
(Progress 149/285: 20 resources per die) (Projected: 2 quarters to begin, 6 quarters to complete)
-[] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) 1 die 20R 0%
(Progress 56/250: 20 resources per die) (-1 Labor, -3 Energy, -1 Capital Goods) (Projected: 4 quarters to begin, 16 to complete)
-[] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) (Phase 6) 1 free die 20R 100%
Santiago (Progress 127/160: 20 resources per die) (-2 Labor, -2 Energy, -1 Capital Goods) (Projected: 2 quarters to begin, 10 quarters to complete)
-[] Combat Laser Development (Tech) 1 free die 25R 100%
(Progress 38/80: 25 resources per die)
-[]Bureaucracy 4/4 30R
-[] Administrative Assistance (Strategic Area Defense Networks) 2 dice
(Spend 2 Bureaucracy dice for 1 operations die, that die is rolled without bonuses)
-[] Hand Off Capital Goods to Market
--[] Hand Off 10 Capital Goods 1 die
-[] Expand Grant Programs
--[] 30 resources in grants. 1 die
[]Free Dice 6/6
-[] 2 in Heavy Industry
-[] 2 in Orbital
-[] 2 in Military
-[]Resources Income 1130/1220 Reserve 0/80 Bank 100

Void Stalker · Mar 25, 2023

We also have had some narrative pushbacks on shocking stations- I think one of them was increased casualties in the workers. So I really would like to see how much the follow up stations cost.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

F0lkL0re said:
Hey @Simon_Jester would you mind giving this proto plan a look over?

Okay, first, I always find it hard to read your plans because you have extra lines between things. However, others may feel the opposite way, so that's just my opinion.

Let me think...

Infrastructure: 60+25 is 85, not 75. Apart from that I have no objections. Aside from Karachi we have few pressing requirements in this category, just projects that seem like good ideas, and these are 'good idea' projects.

Heavy Industry: Okay, this is clearly a plan that de-emphasizes the alloy foundries and puts little effort into fusion reactor construction in order to start North Boston. I don't mind the first (six dice on alloys is what it would take to be confident of finishing the phase this turn, and that's a LOT). I do mind the second, because we actually do legit need to build up a major Energy surplus so we can start stepping down the first-generation fusion plants without major economic disruption. If we have to shut down all those plants in the same order and at the same time after we build them, we're effectively going to have to eat a -144 Energy loss between 2066 and 2069 or so, with a peak rate of -16 per turn. Also, we may not have exact information on when the plants should be shut down, so it's better to be in a position to turn off large numbers of them before they start having catastrophic failures. Thus, there are strong arguments for continuing aggressive fusion rollout even though our immediate Energy surplus is in the 20's.

Furthermore, I don't think building North Boston should be such a top priority. Now is not the best time. We would do better to try to finish the alloy foundries first, I think.

Light Industry: No comments one way or the other.

Agriculture: Personally, I'd want to take the mechanization dice and put one or both of them on some Consoom-granting project, particularly lab meat. But this is a matter of opinion and preference and even I could see myself coming around on it.

Tiberium: Personally I'd go for three dice on RZBOs (enough to be nearly assured of Stage 4, without as much chance of slamming out Stage 5 as well and getting ZOCOM overcommitted before they're ready). I also think that the IHG refits aren't as much of a priority and that it would be better to allocate those dice to inhibitors, or to Red Zone Containment Lines for extra Red Zone mitigation and RpT.

Orbital: It would be better to use an Erewhon die on the fusion yard and a Free die on the station, rather than the other way around. This is because Erewhon has a very good chance of finishing the shipyard (~85%), and in the event that Erewhon could finish, the extra +39 or so Progress we get from a proper Orbital/Free die is wasted. Better to put it on Columbia where we need all the help we can get. I am less enthusiastic about putting E/AA dice on the gravitic shipyard, though, because when you spend 30 R to activate a die, you damn well want to be as sure as possible of getting your money's worth out of it.

Services: Personally, I think it's wasteful to put two dice on autodoc development. But we do have to spend the Service dice on something and there's almost no other projects left apart from AEVAs, to my considerable frustration.

Military: I think it wasteful to begin Phase 2 of the Orca wingman project right now. Better to concentrate that seventh die on SADN, if you ask me. We could use the rollover to Phase 4.

Bureaucracy: Since you're not doing an AEVA, I don't mind the part where you put -10 Capital Goods onto the market all at once. The grant programs are an interesting option; most people seem like they'd prefer to shunt the money to InOps and that may make your plan less popular. Personally I don't much mind one way or the other.

Nottheunmaker · Mar 25, 2023

I'm coming around to the idea of setting up AEVA for the Tiberium department, though that's highly dependent on what's available for Services next turn. Though that's for narrative reasons, not the +3. Our work there seems to be growing ever more information and computing intensive, not to mention just how much of a problem Tiberium is. The AEVA is simply looking increasingly worth the cost.

grimely · Mar 25, 2023

Simon_Jester said:
Yeah, but the numbers would have to be extremely unfavorable (to the point where it would imply that the orbital evacuation victory condition we could have voted for at game start was borderline a trap option) for the 20k target to become unachievable.

It wasn't that it was a trap option, but it would've had far more tragic narrative consequences on a nat 1. The evacuation plan would've bootstrapped space development with Orion rockets and hastily constructed orbital stations, options that we do not and in fact cannot take now.

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2023

grimely said:
It wasn't that it was a trap option, but it would've had far more tragic narrative consequences on a nat 1. The evacuation plan would've bootstrapped space development with Orion rockets and hastily constructed orbital stations, options that we do not and in fact cannot take now.

I mean, yes.

At the same time, if "evacuate everyone into space" was even remotely feasible from the starting position we were in then, with tiberium closing in fast enough that even aside from canon, GDI's holdings would probably have collapsed within 10-20 years without the heavy abatement focus we threw at it...

I really, really don't think "evacuate 0.0033% or so of everyone into space" is going to turn out to be unachievable for us on a four year timescale as we are now, with roughly ten times the industrial base and some fairly effective space launch capabilities of our own even if Orion rockets aren't among them.

I get that we'd have been doing much more aggressive, even reckless, things to yeet people into orbit and off the ground in that alternate timeline/scenario, but even making enormous allowances for that... We'd still need some kind of underlying mechanic or dynamic where the Progress costs of building space habitats leads to successive waves of projects accommodating significantly more people per point of Progress than previous waves of projects.

Nottheunmaker said:
I'm coming around to the idea of setting up AEVA for the Tiberium department, though that's highly dependent on what's available for Services next turn. Though that's for narrative reasons, not the +3. Our work there seems to be growing ever more information and computing intensive, not to mention just how much of a problem Tiberium is. The AEVA is simply looking increasingly worth the cost.

I don't mind doing the AEVA, there are good reasons to.

But in that case I'd rather stick to -5 Capital Goods to the civilian economy right now and maybe another -5 later. We have plenty of Bureaucracy dice, lots and lots, with very few required things to use them on now that security reviews seem to have evaporated.

BoSPaladin · Mar 26, 2023

So long as we match welfare payments for unemployment as a result of industrialisation as a result of greater mechanisation from releasing capital goods to the private sector I see no reason why we can't release some Capital goods into the wider economy.

In point of fact I voted to release some capital goods last vote and in my opinion doing so is long overdue.

Hazard · Mar 26, 2023

Daniel14541 said:
So what was the nat 100 bonus on spider cotton plantations? I can't figure it out.

Eager civilian side rollout. Normally that would take a fair bit of time and investment as a novel good proves successful in government production.

BoSPaladin said:
So long as we match welfare payments for unemployment as a result of industrialisation as a result of greater mechanisation from releasing capital goods to the private sector I see no reason why we can't release some Capital goods into the wider economy.

In point of fact I voted to release some capital goods last vote and in my opinion doing so is long overdue.

Releasing CapGoods to the market won't meaningfully decrease employment. Shift employment, sure, but the economy is so starved of CapGoods that it is majorly inhibiting the economy's ability to employ all available labour resources. We'd see a major drop in Labour availability before companies would mechanize further than they've already had due to the shortage of employees available.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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The Paladin