F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
Here Simon look at the highlighted bit we've got to at least lobby for the tech transfer.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
[ ] Technological Transfers
The Brotherhood still has many secrets up their sleeves. While extracting them is likely to be difficult, especially with the Brotherhood's own obscurantism in the way of making sure that the systems work properly. Extorting technology would be a bit of a grab bag, with little way to know for sure the value of what is being transferred until after the deal is finalized.
-[-] Propose (-0 PS)
-[ ] Lobby (-5 PS) (-2 Mad Science)
-[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
-[ ] Insist (-25 PS)
Proposing technological transfers is locked out, and lobby costs us 2 MS due to Seo having to restrain himself. Ergo, we must at least choose the lobby option.
If you are concerned about Karachi's cost being worth multiple Taiwans:
[ ] Karachi Trade Route
A land route between the Himalayan Blue Zone and the sea, allowing Karachi to occur would be a massive ask for the Initiative, requiring major concessions in other fields before it could even be considered.
[ ] Taiwan
The island of Taiwan sits astride many of the potential routes between Yao and the other Brotherhood powers. By claiming it for the Initiative, it can become an unsinkable aircraft carrier, a sword of damocles over their heads in case of another war. While it would be a major ask, it would also be noticeably powerful.
Massive > Major
Major concessions > Major ask (multiple vs singular)
So if getting a sword of damocles over the negotiators is only a 'major ask', one shudders to imagine what 'major concessions... before it could even be considered' looks like.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No, it doesn't mean we have to take it, just that if we do, it has to be Lobby level.
Note that we can, as I do in my plan, not make any suggestions about Trade Policy, which leaves that entirely up to the diplomats, as I understand it - giving them greatest freedom to pick what they need to make a deal work.
Honestly I would rather just leave it to the diplomats, and if they cant get Karachi, we'll just establish it when we where planning to do it anyways.
[]Plan: Leave it to the diplomats
-[ ] Karachi Trade Route
--[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
-[ ] Technological Transfers
--[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
This plan campaigns for Karachi, because if we can get it without fighting cool, If not then I dont mind fighting, we've been prepping for it anyways.
And Technological Transfers at the level where we dont get -2 MS. The Rest I'm not touching and letting the Diplomats determine it.
[]Plan: Leave it to the diplomats
-[ ] Karachi Trade Route
--[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
-[ ] Technological Transfers
--[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
This plan campaigns for Karachi, because if we can get it without fighting cool, If not then I dont mind fighting, we've been prepping for it anyways.
And Technological Transfers at the level where we dont get -2 MS. The Rest I'm not touching and letting the Diplomats determine it.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The problem is that if we don't have a pre-existing agreement to go through Karachi, the odds are that the Bannerjees in particular and more generally Nod as a whole will view our push into Karachi as an attack against them, and as dishonoring the agreement, causing it to fall apart.
If we were just negotiating with Bintang and Yao I wouldn't worry, but the Bannerjees are directly involved.
Come to think of it, this whole conference may to some extent be a diplomatic masterstroke on our part. I suspect they have some idea that Karachi or something like it is coming. And this way, they're in a position to either pressure us into making concessions in exchange for access rights (as opposed to taking it by force in a war that is costly for the Bannerjees), or to make us look like colossal assholes if we just take it by force so soon after the negotiations.
So it lets them either get paid for letting us do what we would otherwise do by beating them up, or get a ton of diplomatic capital and credibility off of our refusal to negotiate or dishonoring what negotiations we have.
Well, yes and no.
Whatever "-2 Mad Science" means, it just means that counter gets counted down, and we just topped it off in the 2062Q3 turn, so worst case in Q4 it's at 1/4 and we have to take a Mad Science action, which we were seriously considering doing anyway for the sheer love of doing so.
@Ithillid , I'm sorry to bother you, but can we get a ruling on this? Because it's a little unclear from reading this what's going on with this option. Is Rakuhn correct? Is it the case that we must Lobby?, and that even lobbying will push the Mad Science counter down so we'd be pressured to go for Campaign/Insist?
How is this working, exactly?
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- Location
- The Underdark
You have to at least lobby for it.
I'm frothing at the mouth, my blood sugars are off, I'm crossing over to the other side.
I will pay any price, commit any crime and suffer any humiliation to make this happen. The China Sea, practically gift wrapped my God!
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Not impossible, but what would be their incentives?
Is this a reference to anything, or is this simply your sincere, off-the-cuff reaction?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well bollocks.
[ ]Plan Seo Goes to India
-[ ]Where to Meet 15 PS
--[ ]Chennai
---[ ] Propose (-15 PS)
-[ ]Trade Policy 35 PS
--[ ] Establishment of Territorial Waters
---[ ] Campaign (-35 PS)
-[ ]Territorial Concessions 25 PS
--[ ] Karachi Trade Route
---[ ] Insist (-25 PS)
-[ ]Other Items 10 PS
--[ ] Technological Transfers
----[ ] Lobby (-5 PS) (-2 Mad Science)
--[ ] Military Concessions
---[ ] Lobby (-0 PS)
--[ ] Tiberium Abatement Coordination
---[ ] Propose (-5 PS)
85/109 PS, -2 MS
Hmm. Not terrible, but getting pricy. I unno.
[ ]Plan Seo Goes to India
-[ ]Where to Meet 15 PS
--[ ]Chennai
---[ ] Propose (-15 PS)
-[ ]Trade Policy 35 PS
--[ ] Establishment of Territorial Waters
---[ ] Campaign (-35 PS)
-[ ]Territorial Concessions 25 PS
--[ ] Karachi Trade Route
---[ ] Insist (-25 PS)
-[ ]Other Items 10 PS
--[ ] Technological Transfers
----[ ] Lobby (-5 PS) (-2 Mad Science)
--[ ] Military Concessions
---[ ] Lobby (-0 PS)
--[ ] Tiberium Abatement Coordination
---[ ] Propose (-5 PS)
85/109 PS, -2 MS
Hmm. Not terrible, but getting pricy. I unno.
yes my thinking Is we campaign for it, and not insist, since Insist seems any concessions necessary, the treasury wants this. while campaign is, hey we want this but if they are being unreasonable thats fine not to get it. And by not doing the other options, the negotiators on our side have alot of wiggle room deciding on what to do. So If it falls through, We'll do a conflict over it, and since that's been the plan for a while I'm fine with that.
So either we get it without super bad concessions (and any that happens arent fully blamed on the treasury), or we take it by force, with the military we've been building to do so.
We Don't get it > We go to war, and the treasury doesn't get blamed for not trying negotations first
We get it for major concessions >, the blame is split between treasury (wanting it) and the negotatiors
We get it for minor concessions> Probably neutral Opinion (happy from majority, anger from those who's concessions go against what they wanted)
We get it for Temporary Concessions> We dont have to go to war, and no major issues from concessions, Trasury and negotatiors (mainly them) are applauded
(temporary I'm imagining are, We host at _ place, Have Some resources, etc)
Because all the things we arent grabbing Isn't just not happening. Because We arent leading the negotations, we are basically going to give the negotators in Game Terms (Treasury wants this/Really wants this) on things they are doing.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not sure it's worth lobbying heavily for a specific Trade Policy outcome. Which outcome gets chosen is likely to depend heavily on how many concessions Nod asks for and how much GDI has to give up to get what GDI wants.
Also, if we're specifically wanting Nod to do things for us (like agree to Karachi), we might want to consider lobbying for Seoul. Remember, the relationship there is that we influence the choice of city, and that the choice of city (not entirely up to us, except perhaps at the "Insist" level) in turn influences the balance of power between the delegates.
San Diego, for instance, is a place where GDI holds almost all the cards. It would be the perfect place to extract a deal very favorable to GDI, but for that exact reason, it's also a place Nod won't want to go. Seoul gives GDI an advantage, but a less imbalanced one.
Chennai is the opposite- Nod will hold more cards in the negotiations than GDI's own diplomats. As such, asking things from Nod will be harder, and we're more likely to get a deal that gives Nod more of what they want and less of what we want.
If we want "extra" things like Karachi, that's something to consider.
Putting it as "The Treasury wants this" makes sense since, as its pointed out, we are not actively the ones negotiating.
Treasury is about Tiberium, technology, and the economy - meaning Tiberium atbatement, technology exchange, and some trade/travel rights, both oceanic and also to the city site we want to build. Its why I think these things are super where we should put our focus on.
Military rights aren't our thing. Randomly getting Korea isn't really a focus for Treasury. Where the negotiations happen also aren't in our wheelhouse. (though if we have the points to spare I see no reason not to try and get a site that would benefit us)
Treasury is about Tiberium, technology, and the economy - meaning Tiberium atbatement, technology exchange, and some trade/travel rights, both oceanic and also to the city site we want to build. Its why I think these things are super where we should put our focus on.
Military rights aren't our thing. Randomly getting Korea isn't really a focus for Treasury. Where the negotiations happen also aren't in our wheelhouse. (though if we have the points to spare I see no reason not to try and get a site that would benefit us)
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I am simply overcome with a hunger for the islands.
- Location
- ?????????
To quote QM here a bit
"Basically Propose means that it is something that can be on the docket. Lobby means you are actively trying to make it happen. Campaign means really trying, and the Insist is basically you saying "this needs to be in the treaty or it is better to walk""
"Basically Propose means that it is something that can be on the docket. Lobby means you are actively trying to make it happen. Campaign means really trying, and the Insist is basically you saying "this needs to be in the treaty or it is better to walk""
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My read of Territorial Waters is that it's not just a trade concession, it's a security guarantee that we won't violate those waters with warships. Which I think is the one concession just about big enough to make Karachi feasible.
I can see the logic of going for Seoul instead.
[ ]Plan Seo Goes to India v1.1
-[ ]Where to Meet 15 PS
--[ ] Seoul
---[ ] Propose (-15 PS)
-[ ]Trade Policy 35 PS
--[ ] Establishment of Territorial Waters
---[ ] Campaign (-35 PS)
-[ ]Territorial Concessions 25 PS
--[ ] Karachi Trade Route
---[ ] Insist (-25 PS)
-[ ]Other Items 10 PS
--[ ] Technological Transfers
----[ ] Lobby (-5 PS) (-2 Mad Science)
--[ ] Military Concessions
---[ ] Lobby (-0 PS)
--[ ] Tiberium Abatement Coordination
---[ ] Propose (-5 PS)
85/109 PS, -2 MS
And a quick exploratory plan:
[ ]Plan Yao's Damocles
-[ ]Where to Meet 15 PS
--[ ] Shanghai
---[ ] Propose (-15 PS)
-[ ]Trade Policy 15 PS
--[ ] Limited Navigation
---[ ] Propose (-15 PS)
-[ ]Territorial Concessions 35 PS
--[ ] Taiwan
---[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
--[ ] Dhaka Trade Route
---[ ] Campaign (-20 PS)
-[ ]Other Items 20 PS
--[ ] Technological Transfers
---[ ] Campaign (-15 PS)
--[ ] Military Concessions
---[ ] Lobby (-0 PS)
--[ ] Tiberium Abatement Coordination
---[ ] Propose (-5 PS)
85/109 PS
Less aggressive on BZ-18, aimed at isolating Yao and maintaining a strong position in the Pacific.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think we can go really low on PS here. Remember that we've got an easy +15 PS from doing the next phase of Shala (we're at 95/540 progress as of last turn), and that the 5th phase of Columbia and Shala will give +10 PS and +20 PS respectively. That's +45 PS from Orbital that we're rapidly completing, let alone our other sources of PS gain. And in general, we've been able to go very low without penalty when we were playing Granger, and Seo is much more politically capable. I'm personally fine with voting for plans that go as low as 20 PS.
I don't think this is clear in the text of the update. All the other other options we can ignore completely, and marking Propose for the option with a strike through makes it seem like we simply can't choose to only Propose it, not that we must choose to include it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[] Plan: Treasury Concerns Only
-[] Karachi Trade Route
--[] Insist (-25 PS)
-[] Technological Transfers
--[] Campaign (-15 PS)
-[] Tiberium Abatement Coordination
--[] Campaign (-20 PS)
Because these are the only things that really matter to us. We should not be wasting our PS on stuff that is really better decided by other groups.
-[] Karachi Trade Route
--[] Insist (-25 PS)
-[] Technological Transfers
--[] Campaign (-15 PS)
-[] Tiberium Abatement Coordination
--[] Campaign (-20 PS)
Because these are the only things that really matter to us. We should not be wasting our PS on stuff that is really better decided by other groups.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
idk, disabling propose but allowing to ignore is... counterintuitive. While it's not entirely clear, it's the most sensible read of the update.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Dare you accuse me of not being sensible?
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
I am very confused by the location voting options.
Are we required to make a location suggestion, only to be instantly rebuked by the Diplo Corp to the tune of 15 PS?
I don't see any reason to give any opinions at all for location.
For Trade Policy, I'd just Propose the Limited Navigation option. If Nod manages to push it out to Territorial Waters instead, that isn't a huge loss.
For Territorial Concessions, Taiwan is nice, but we really want the Karachi land route. But I'm not sure we should Insist upon it, as Insist means that the whole deal falls through if Nod refuses.
For Other Items, the only thing I'm really interested in spending PS on is to Lobby for Tiberium Abatement Coordination.
Are we required to make a location suggestion, only to be instantly rebuked by the Diplo Corp to the tune of 15 PS?
I don't see any reason to give any opinions at all for location.
For Trade Policy, I'd just Propose the Limited Navigation option. If Nod manages to push it out to Territorial Waters instead, that isn't a huge loss.
For Territorial Concessions, Taiwan is nice, but we really want the Karachi land route. But I'm not sure we should Insist upon it, as Insist means that the whole deal falls through if Nod refuses.
For Other Items, the only thing I'm really interested in spending PS on is to Lobby for Tiberium Abatement Coordination.
I would like to negotiate for Karachi but I'm really wary of what " major concessions in other fields" consists of.
We don't know what we'd end up giving Nod for it and that makes me reluctant
We don't know what we'd end up giving Nod for it and that makes me reluctant