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Personally, Hi and Agri are priorities for recruitment.
Space is close second, everything else is very distant third.
Space is close second, everything else is very distant third.
Assuming we need the free ones in the first year to build up income this leaves us with 4*6+13*4*3 dice in the orbital category, for a average total of around 13680 progress.
The argument isn't quite that cool, sadly. It's more like:So sounds like we will want to do red zone offensives simply because this is likely the only time we would have available to actually implement them? We won't be able to do them effectively in the future because NOD military would actually be on the ball at that point. So this is a way to sneakily slip more territory away from NOD and undercut their industry? I certainly do like the idea of going on the offense like that!
Well yeah, but at the moment we're actually suffering from noticeably diminished capacity along those lines, so getting things back up to speed is a priority.Cut down on the areas that they can gather resources from and that cuts into their ability to wage war on us! It also means that the vein mines or whatever would be most lucrative would still be ready and waiting for us to implement after we finished those red zone offensives and the connected mining. It may not be the most immediately lucrative of actions to take to regain our budget but I only really ever say our budget as something to be used to take the fight to NOD, take the fight to Tiberium, or build up GDI.
Just remember that the Red Zones are really big. Like, half the planet. Nod's territorial access to them is much better than ours, and supply lines through a Red Zone are almost impossible. I don't think we can "cut off" Nod; it's mostly about just getting at them ourselves, extracting resources, and importantly doing what we can to shrink the Red Zones.The point is to substantially cut into their income streams. WE can't do that with yellow zone now can we? Last time that was done we had a MAD scare. So that is off the table. What is on the table is an action that both gives us substantial income, competitive with some of our best options. And at the same time it cuts into NOD's income stream which means it provides even more benefit then just increased income stream. A two for one special!
I think you've made the argument too abstract.Which is fine. The Navy asked for W, X, Y and Z at the start of the current Plan. We delivered W and X.
But when the Navy hints that they are going to revise Y and Z, I don't see why we would want to suddenly jump at locking in a capability that was thought of as needed 5 years ago.
Because the Navy will just say: "Okay, build Z then. But we also need new capabilities A and B, because Z doesn't do what we need anymore." But we can't afford to build Z, A and B.
So as I understand it, tiberium rolls a 2 for "how much mitigation do you lose" and a 3, meaning "nine months, stretched to twelve by the stabilizer constellation" for "how long until you roll again."Edit:
There done.
Looks like the Tib might be returning the goods and asking for a refund. The sonics still work.
And also feeling like sleeping. Those anti mitigation creams are a scam anyway. Maybe in a year's time...
Don't beat yourself up.
Maybe. but right now, the border offensives are a strictly superior version of the Lines for all practical purposes, so we should do those first. And as long as we need the money badly, we should do the corresponding super glacier mines.Can we finally finish the Red Zone Containment Lines Action chain this incoming Plan?
I've been thinking about that. We might actually want to hold off and put the die on Advanced Alloys. Unless we pressingly need the Capital Goods from Chicago right away, we might be better off in Q1 with the cheaper research project (Advanced Alloys) instead of the more expensive industrial project.So what are some clear goals for next turn?
I assume meme plan levels of mining and red zone stuff.
One die on Chicago to knock phase 4 out.
The station bay is, as noted, a minimum of two dice from completion, but has a 73% chance of completion with two dice. The Leopard II yard, assuming that the failure hasn't cursed the project progress somehow (quite possible) would have roughly a 25% chance of completion with two dice and a 75% chance with three.
+Housing projects in Infrastructure, which have the virtue of being cheap per die. In Military, Ferro-Aluminum Armor Refits has the virtue of being the only 5 R/die project we have, so if we don't do it now we may never. It must be worth something or the Ground Forces wouldn't let it stay on the docket. My plan draft will have three dice for it.Any other stand out things to do? Or just whatever is cheap at that point?
Will there be Roll for quality? Like in previous communal housing?
Unless we do really well on income (30% GDP and line item castoffs), Reykjavik Phase 5 is just too expensive to make meaningful progress on in 2062Q1 and probably Q2.We usually can't deal with Goals stuff properly for the first year anyway, but this one might be different.
Depending on what we are committed to, we might want to start walking forward with something like Reykjavik 5.
North Boston Phase 5 falls into the same category. We can't afford to make a meaningful dent with it, so we should concentrate on projects that actually have an impact in a reasonably timely manner. We'll probably want to start major work on North Boston Phase 5 some time in Q2, with the other big priority for Q2 being improved fusion research.For example if we know we'll need to complete a large number of zone armor factories. And since we committed to North Boston 5, we should start with 1 die per turn on that. We don't want to leave it too late and then have to do a mega-rush, while having an energy and capitol good crunch.
We might be better off doing the first amphibious assault ship yard before the Seattle frigate yard. It sends a message to the Navy that we actually want them to have this capability. And it makes it more likely that we'll have fully modern ships capable of amphibious warfare in time for operations some time in, say, 2064-65.
I'll definitely want to try to find money for that. But the budget's really tight unless we get 30% GDP, manage to spin off a LOT of line items, or both. Just the more or less minimal stuff we have to do in Tiberium to get out of this pit could easily wind up costing us over 300 R, and we might hypothetically only have about 650-ish R to work with, total.If there's something in Services that would help keep the Qatarites alive I wanna do that quickly.
I want to try to finish Red Zone Border Offensives Stage 2, by the way, to set us up for the next glacier mine. Plus it's a great Red Zone mitigation option and the propaganda value of "we invaded Nod. We beat them out of the way. Now we're invading the Red Zones" seems really sweet.
I agree that it's a priority, though it'll need to be balanced against Food production.I hate to say it, but Agriculture should focus on Kudzu. The +1 to every die is very helpful, and it's very cheap. The rest is a bit beyond me.
Well, the Orbital dice alone give us about 6*76.5*16 = 7344 Progress to work with. I'm definitely comfortable committing to some Free dice investment in Orbital, but I prefer not to commit to so much that we'd have to average +2 or +3 Free dice per turn or more just to hit our Plan goals. Among other things because, y'know, we might want to do other things in space that aren't on the list. So I think I'd hit my limit around 8000-8500 point line.Anyway, so, maximum space preplanning. We have 7 free dice and 6 orbital dice. Assuming we need the free ones in the first year to build up income this leaves us with 4*6+13*4*3 dice in the orbital category, for a average total of around 13680 progress. Leo IIs, Gdrive-, Fusion-, Station-bay, Colombia and Shala are together 4980 progress, leaving 8700 progress unaccounted for. Which is probably enough to build a bunch of moon cities or even some additional stations or just more heavy metal mines.
This number can increase if we get a good space recruit.
Maximum space plangoals probably wont win the popular vote, but as if I care. Its definitely possible.
Sadly, moon mining still isn't cost-competitive with tiberium mining. Also, living conditions in the moon mines are terrible right now and I suspect will remain so until we get up to Columbia Phase X, with X being... I dunno, three plus or minus one. But it's an opportunity to keep an eye out for! We don't know if the moon mine income will be protected in 2066 (maybe not), but even if not, If we're not actively worried about hitting Plan goals, moon mining projects do tend to pay for themselves in R output as long as you start them early enough in a Plan.Technically we could put at least some of those income dice on moon mining or the like.
Where did you get "six dice on Heavy Industry," and what makes you think that's going to be an option? We don't get infinite options from recruitment. If we wanted six dice on Heavy Industry, we shouldn't have founded the DHIA, although in my own opinion that one's going to be worth it in the long run.
I'm not sure the timeframe works out there. There's a good chance the negotiations will happen now, more or less....If we want to both secure space in preparation to TCN negotiation.
This... isn't really that unpopular. There's a strong groundswell for the Red Zone mines; the main problems is that even the lower-Logistics cost Super Glacier Mines come with -Logistics costs and compete heavily with the much-needed Blue Zone Apartments project for those. We need to be mindful about that.Also. This is mostly likely an unpopular suggestion but we should focus more on Red Zone Mining and Border Offensive and as many Resource Gaining offensive against abatement goals. If we can take up to 5 Border Offensive Phases and 5 Super Glacier Mines and 10 to 15 Vein Mines. We can easly expand our total gains up to 700 to 1200 RPT in preparation for the fifth plan.
All I know is that I want the project to actually complete, and that's liable to cost two dice. Even if the housing's low quality, it's going to thicken our buffer against anyone actually living under canvas, and that's a good thing.Will there be Roll for quality? Like in previous communal housing?
Considering the Narrative showed the issues last time were from people who should NOT be in communal living fighting to get in due to housing demand we may want to deliberately slow roll this one while simultaneously building apartments, specifically for the narrative effect, not mechanical optimization.All I know is that I want the project to actually complete, and that's liable to cost two dice. Even if the housing's low quality, it's going to thicken our buffer against anyone actually living under canvas, and that's a good thing.
3 Free dice per turn on orbital after the first year comes down to almost exactly 10k points (5k after the items on the current shopping list), 2 results in 9180 (4200 after the items on the shopping list), which would be pretty based if this pace was kept. Orbital does live with the danger of being neglected in terms of free dice in favor of Tiberium or Heavy industry. This is why I am in favor of doing higher space goals.Well, the Orbital dice alone give us about 6*76.5*16 = 7344 Progress to work with. I'm definitely comfortable committing to some Free dice investment in Orbital, but I prefer not to commit to so much that we'd have to average +2 or +3 Free dice per turn or more just to hit our Plan goals. Among other things because, y'know, we might want to do other things in space that aren't on the list. So I think I'd hit my limit around 8000-8500 point line.
More like they need Zone Armor to operate infantry anywhere outside Blue Zones. Even in Yellow Zones infantry units need to either be inside a vehicle (which means they aren't really infantry) or in protective (and unarmored) suits. While Nod is fairly ok communing with the sacred rock, GDI troopers don't want to for some strange reason. No idea why.3) Ground Force does, but their troops need power armor to operate in Red Zones.
No plan of mine will do anything other than "while simultaneously building apartments."Considering the Narrative showed the issues last time were from people who should NOT be in communal living fighting to get in due to housing demand we may want to deliberately slow roll this one while simultaneously building apartments, specifically for the narrative effect, not mechanical optimization.
I think the only way that Tiberium's going to be getting a lot of Free dice investment past the first year is if we have TCN stuff to build, which... frankly is the only thing more important to long-term human survivability than space infrastructure, if you ask me.3 Free dice per turn on orbital after the first year comes down to almost exactly 10k points (5k after the items on the current shopping list), 2 results in 9180 (4200 after the items on the shopping list), which would be pretty based if this pace was kept. Orbital does live with the danger of being neglected in terms of free dice in favor of Tiberium or Heavy industry. This is why I am in favor of doing higher space goals.
Well yeah, but the specific subject of focus was the Red Zones.More like they need Zone Armor to operate infantry anywhere outside Blue Zones.
Considering the Narrative showed the issues last time were from people who should NOT be in communal living fighting to get in due to housing demand we may want to deliberately slow roll this one while simultaneously building apartments, specifically for the narrative effect, not mechanical optimization.
If nothing else, it's weight savings. You can get similar or better protection for less weight. I think it also affects power armor, though I might have to recheck that part. If true, Zone Defender Mk II should have gotten it added during the revision, while refits would cover the Trooper, Raider, Captain, and Marauder. Guardian Mk II would have it baked in, but Mk I, Pitbull, Wolverine, A-16 Orca Mk IV would need refits. Slingshot and Pacifier as well, probably. Maybe ZEMEV and Juggernaut Mk III? I think Havoc's design postdates the FA Armor testing, so it should be baked into the design.In Military, Ferro-Aluminum Armor Refits has the virtue of being the only 5 R/die project we have, so if we don't do it now we may never. It must be worth something or the Ground Forces wouldn't let it stay on the docket.
In Yellow Zones, GF infantry can just use their regular body armor. They don't need special suits (and mind you, if they really needed Tiberium resistance/protection, GF could just make use of ZOCOM's body armor that got phased out for Zone Armor). Deep Yellow probably starts being an issue for their regular gear, and Red is straight up dangerous without special equipment (such as ZA).More like they need Zone Armor to operate infantry anywhere outside Blue Zones. Even in Yellow Zones infantry units need to either be inside a vehicle (which means they aren't really infantry) or in protective (and unarmored) suits. While Nod is fairly ok communing with the sacred rock, GDI troopers don't want to for some strange reason. No idea why.
I strongly disagree with this. Frankly the frigates are vastly more useful in almost every situation the navy finds themselves in, the one exception being specifically naval landings. I seem to recall you arguing for a q4 2063 Karachi (please correct me if I' wrong here) which would mean the islands wouldn't even be used for that, while the frigates will see significant antisubmarine and convoy escort useWe might be better off doing the first amphibious assault ship yard before the Seattle frigate yard. It sends a message to the Navy that we actually want them to have this capability. And it makes it more likely that we'll have fully modern ships capable of amphibious warfare in time for operations some time in, say, 2064-65.
Well, +1 High Quality and +4 Low Quality. It's not enough, but it does mean that our buffer hasn't shrunk by nearly as much as if we'd just spent the whole turn building nothing but Suborbital Shuttles. The buffer housing's not great (the last +28 of our Housing is now fortress towns, though many of those are far behind the front lines). But at least it's there, and we're pretty close to having fully 'Blued' all the territory we took during Steel Vanguard so that conditions will be safe from tiberium if not fun to live in in and of themselves.That was when there still wasn't even enough Blue Zone housing (much less HQ housing) for everybody, we're in a very different situation now. There's 20+ points of mothballed commieblocks for any refugees that don't fit into communal housing to take instead, which was the problem last time, bad personality fits just taking slots because at least it's in a Blue Zone. Now those folks go into all our excess commieblocks. And I doubt native Blue Zoners would be trying to fight their way into communal housing experiments at the cost of their BZ apartment unless they're seriously dedicated to the idea and willing to make it work. This time should go significantly better and we need those 8 points of housing ASAP, especially with zero new housing stock at all this turn.
I'd be happy to do that, and given the deal that we made with InOps, I'm pretty sure options to just hand off RpT to departments will exist. After all, we literally just made a deal to give InOps 240 RpT over the course of the upcoming Four Year Plan, in exchange for 10 PS.I'm honestly in favor of taking 30% and divesting some bureaus, particularly if we had a way to divest off RpT to other departments mid-Plan.
We are the Tiberium Department; that's one of Treasury's core responsibilities along with "literally handle the cash." Harvester amenities would be a case of us doing something for ourselves.In any case, I'd like ways to divest RpT to other departments during the Plan regardless of reward, whether the divesting is temporary or permanent (for the remainder of the Plan) and whether the reward is purely narrative or not. Education asking for money to (help) cover repair/upgrade/modernization of schools, or build a few new ones, etc. Labor wanting to overhaul their computer systems. Tiberium wanting some funds to upgrade Harvester crew amenities. And so on.
Countervailing considerations:I strongly disagree with this. Frankly the frigates are vastly more useful in almost every situation the navy finds themselves in, the one exception being specifically naval landings. I seem to recall you arguing for a q4 2063 Karachi (please correct me if I' wrong here) which would mean the islands wouldn't even be used for that, while the frigates will see significant antisubmarine and convoy escort use
Tempting. On the other hand, there are some fields where it would really help GDI's economy as a whole if we could do more than we can do now.I have a shocking, controversial idea. For the next recruitment drives we deliberately do not pick the graduates option, so the rest of GDI and the private sector can get some educated fresh blood. The rest of GDI might suck them up before anything is left for the civilian economy, but at least we wont add our succ to the brain demand.
It's a "could" but not a "will," and there are other relevant applications and use cases.I am remembering that one of the purposes of the offensive navy was to temporarily take coastal yellow zones and evacuate refugees from them before GTFOing. Is that still going to happen or are we beyond that point with all the refugees we are taking post Regency War.
Certainly, we'll be looking at a very different set of priorities if Kane shows up and negotiates a peace treaty between us and (most of) Nod.But really, I think this is very, very premature to be discussing the merits of the Island Class. We really should be holding off on contentious subjects until we know if Kane is coming at the end of this turn, and makes all of the arguments completely pointless.
I don't think there's such a thing as "air superiority for good." We can't gain air superiority against them forever, only until they have time to build something new that can contest the skies. Furthermore, we're still in a situation where the Air Force's confidence is "High" while the Navy and Talons' confidence is "Low." Arguably, this is the last time for us to be going out of our way to do stuff for the Air Force.Another controversial idea: a die on both Apollo factories in Q1 2062.
RpD is somewhat low, though Energy overheads...
On the other hand - high chance of completion, more planes AND NOD is already on the ropes. We might regain air superiority for good...maybe.
Actually, I am perfectly willing to sacrifice an orbital die for that.Tempting. On the other hand, there are some fields where it would really help GDI's economy as a whole if we could do more than we can do now.
And you'll probably find it a bit difficult to keep that resolution if Graduates is the only way to get a seventh Orbital die.![]()
...*Sneaks over to the phone*Actually, I am perfectly willing to sacrifice an orbital die for that.
I don't think we're nearly as much in danger of this as many people think, partly because a lot of the Navy's responsibilities on the defensive side will be keeping our shipping safe. And while that may not involve actually invading Nod territory, may well involve a certain amount of bombardment of Nod harbors, as well as general patrols.2) The Navy is in danger of falling into a "turtling" mindset precisely because they do not have the ships to perform amphibious operations or launch well-supported attacks against enemy coastline.
Yeah, I think that the only thing we're likely to want to do beyond FA armor and Railgun munitions for the first couple turns of 2062, is Zone Armor/Zocom support. (Zone Lancers are likely to be useful, as they are pretty much a straight upgrade to the Zone Marauder suit.)I don't think there's such a thing as "air superiority for good." We can't gain air superiority against them forever, only until they have time to build something new that can contest the skies. Furthermore, we're still in a situation where the Air Force's confidence is "High" while the Navy and Talons' confidence is "Low." Arguably, this is the last time for us to be going out of our way to do stuff for the Air Force.
Who are you and what have you done with the real BOTCommander?Actually, I am perfectly willing to sacrifice an orbital die for that.