While Kovac's shenanigans made everything much worse, Kilian and Kane's relationship was deteriorating throughout the vanilla TW3 campaign independent of Kovac's frame job. On a couple of occasions Kilian expresses concern about Kane to the commander, being worried if some of his actions were to the benefit of Nod. My interpretation of the event is that Kilian was an institutionalist, she was loyal to the Brotherhood of Nod as an institution instead of being loyal to Kane and his personal goals. Thus, as it became more and more obvious that Kane was prioritizing his personal/religious goals at the expense of the more "mundane" strategic issues facing the brotherhood Kilian became increasingly disenchanted with Kane.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that she thought that splitting the brotherhood in the middle of a world war was a remotely intelligent idea, but there was a growing rift even before Kovac's shenanigans.

Pretty much.
If I remember correctly, Kovac's motivation for the whole action was her (Kovac's) personal loyalty to Kane, and her seeing Kilian as not worthy exactly because she (Kilian) began to question Kane's decisions and motivations.

The resulting frame job would not be out of place in an ultra stalinist NKVD officer.
 
That is me summarizing the in game footage.

Basically the order of events is.

1. Alexa Kovacs (Hero of the Initiative) gets Legion to take a force in the guise of a Qatarite strike on Kane to attack Temple Prime.
2. Kane wakes up after the battle of Temple Prime.
3. Kane kills Killian Qatar.
4. Kane realizes that it was in fact Alexa Kovacs (Hero of the Initiative) that staged the action.

The thing is that in this time period, he is also managing Brotherhood action against the Towers, and then figuring out what the hell to do now. While at the same time, a lot of lower level people are going "The Qatarites betrayed our messiah" and are trying to kill them off.
5. Kane begins consuming mass quantities of caffeine and alcohol.

Okay, I know Kane being an alien is important and all, but....Gene Coon was a member of the Brotherhood of Nod? Can we talk about that?
Where do you think he got all the crazy ideas they put in the show?

EDIT: FWIW re: Kane and Killian and Kovacs....

It's quite probable that, had Killian not been framed and killed, eventually Kane would have hit the threshold to at least come more clean with her (note the story tidbit about someone grabbing his remains so he could resurrect hin his special bunker).

And while he was upset at Kovacs tampering with LEGION, he's gritting his teeth and snarling once he finds out she framed Qatar (which incidentally lead to a bunch of other stuff getting fucked up).

If nothing else it was a sort of "one-two punch" scenario.
 
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Is it possible that Kane was angry as much about the tampering with LEGION as over what happened to Qatar? Based on this deep lore, LEGION is the embryonic form of the future shipmind he hopes to go into symbiosis with some day. Finding out Kovacs had messed with LEGION might well genuinely outrage Kane as much or more as anything she'd done to any human or even to himself, because LEGION is more of a real person to Kane than anyone else on Earth except himself.

It is very likely he was furious both with the tampering of Legion and the outright loss of Killian due to as I mentioned earlier here position as most valuable asset along with the Commander and her being a close advisor which he trusted. There is nothing which precludes him being angry with both occurring or more for one or the other. Also it may be because of her potentially destroying any remains of Able even further. Shown in the transcript for "Endgame".

Disconnecting from the battlefield control interface, LEGION pans to the right. Alexa rushes to LEGION, holding a data storage device in her hand.

Alexa: I cannot allow you to connect with the Tacitus!

Alexa plugs the storage device into LEGION, infecting the AI with a virus. The screen glitches, with "VIRUS DETECTED" in the upper right corner of LEGION's interface.

Alexa: I will not let you usher in an age of machines! I will not be your slave! I will not!

Kane sees this and pulls Alexa away.

Kane: No! What have you done?

Alexa: It was turning against you! It was taking control-

Kane: You doubt me?

[SYSTEM PURGE INITIATED]

Alexa:
Kilian did.

Kane: Yes, and now she is dead.

Alexa: Only because I ordered the attack on Sarajevo!

[SYSTEM PURGE FAILED]

Kane:
...Kilian gave that order.

Alexa: No. That was mine. I ordered LEGION to assume the guise of General Qatar and attack Temple Prime.

[SWITCHING TO BACKUP]

Kane:
Why?

Alexa: Because you couldn't see how dangerous she was. She would've betrayed you in time!

[BACKUP CORRUPTED]

Kane:
I ordered her execution... Take her away. Interrogate her - do not be gentle!

[SYSTEM FAILURE]

A hexadecimal countdown begins on LEGION's interface.

Alexa starts to be taken away by Kane's followers. Kane turns to LEGION and attempts to resolve the corruption in its system. Alexa resists, disarms the guard to her left and holds Kane at gunpoint.


Alexa: Peace... through... power!

As the countdown reaches zero, LEGION succumbs to system failure and shuts down. Meanwhile, Alexa pulls the gun away from Kane and commits suicide.

Pretty much.
If I remember correctly, Kovac's motivation for the whole action was her (Kovac's) personal loyalty to Kane, and her seeing Kilian as not worthy exactly because she (Kilian) began to question Kane's decisions and motivations.

The resulting frame job would not be out of place in an ultra stalinist NKVD officer.

Correct on the questioning of Kane on his decisions in terms of tactics and strategy along with eventual decisions being what particular caused Kovac to go nuts due to viewing Killian as a heretic. With the capstone being her intercepting intermissions of Kilian discussing with the Commander her doubts in Seek of Doubts transcript.
 
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5. Kane begins consuming mass quantities of caffeine and alcohol.
:D

Does caffeine even work on Kane? Possible alien biochemistry. I suspect booze works on him just fine, though its effects may not be like those on humans. Ethanol's a pretty simple molecule and will probably have disruptive effects on any carbon-water biochemistry, one way or another.
 
How do we know that?

And also, who are the Visitors? I thought they were the Scrins.


The Visitors are the aliens that GDI has been calling the Scrin. It's an in-universe miscommunication issue because (IIRC) the word "Scrin" showed up a lot in what alien communications GDI was able to decipher and sort-of translate.
If I remember correctly:
The Not!Scrin are the alien mining expedition we fought on Earth, mistakenly thought by humans as Scrin, here called "Visitiors" by Kane.

The actual Scrin is another alien race, enemies of the Visitors (?Reapers?).

Both races are different from the Bentusaar, race Kane is hailing from.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:
All three races are extremely high tech, probably to the point of at least technically being at Reaper level (unless the Scrin are Reapers, as mentioned).
 
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:D

Does caffeine even work on Kane? Possible alien biochemistry. I suspect booze works on him just fine, though its effects may not be like those on humans. Ethanol's a pretty simple molecule and will probably have disruptive effects on any carbon-water biochemistry, one way or another.

Very likely so, Kane's body seems to be that of a human as I refuse to believe that he is somehow an alien so human looking as to appear human at first glance than even Vulcans, which does beg the question of what happened to his original alien body and how exactly he figured how to transfer his consciousness into a human template.
 
It's just so... stupid.

The winning play was to jump in and offer a partnership the instant GDI realized how bad tiberium was.

You come in. Give them the background information they lack. Say you can help them if they help you. Then work together. Even better if he would be smart enough to NOT become enemy number one with nod.

Instead at every step of the way his need for secrecy and control sabotaged everything for everyone.

So much could have been avoided if he just told them about tiberium when it appeared.

Sigh... idiot.
 
It's just so... stupid.

The winning play was to jump in and offer a partnership the instant GDI realized how bad tiberium was.

You come in. Give them the background information they lack. Say you can help them if they help you. Then work together. Even better if he would be smart enough to NOT become enemy number one with nod.

Instead at every step of the way his need for secrecy and control sabotaged everything for everyone.

So much could have been avoided if he just told them about tiberium when it appeared.

Sigh... idiot.
Just remember that the last time Kane tried something like that, the end result was the Soviet Union, and Kane being unable to get Trofim Fucking LYSENKO purged.
 
It's just so... stupid.
The winning play was to jump in and offer a partnership the instant GDI realized how bad tiberium was.

You come in. Give them the background information they lack. Say you can help them if they help you. Then work together. Even better if he would be smart enough to NOT become enemy number one with nod.

Instead at every step of the way his need for secrecy and control sabotaged everything for everyone.

So much could have been avoided if he just told them about tiberium when it appeared.

Sigh... idiot.

To be absolutely fair, at the very beginning, like before the first war, I can see it going really badly for him, arguably worse than starting the NOD gambit.

But afterwards there were multiple moments to come forth, the Earth atmosphere on the brink of becoming literally unbreathable probably the best one to help and receive maximum gains.

Edit:
Ninja'd.
 
So really this is all fucking Lysenko's fault, it's to be expected honestly.

I think there's also real irony in that GDI is basically pretty likely to evolve into exactly what Able was trying to create. A heavily militarized if still fairly reasonable civilization that has every ideological and personal reason to fight the Visitors wherever they can. Humanity is never not going to be on their shit list, and isn't ever likely going to forgive the Visitors for sucker punching humanity with Tiberium- in part because at least on some level the reason Kane goes from 'doing really dumb shit without paying close enough attention that helps cause the bloodiest century in human history' to 'active threat to the survival of humanity as a culture and species outside of his select menagerie' is because the Visitors escalated everything.
 
Just remember that the last time Kane tried something like that, the end result was the Soviet Union, and Kane being unable to get Trofim Fucking LYSENKO purged.
On the positive side he has gotten an absolutely kickass leather jacket out of it!

On the more practical side:

Grav bay/ fusion bay/ advanced materials bay is probably the best possibility for us to go forward with building best ship we can, if we want to negotiate with Kane, and we probably want to.
 
Just remember that the last time Kane tried something like that, the end result was the Soviet Union, and Kane being unable to get Trofim Fucking LYSENKO purged.

Sure but that was before tiberium.

Before that if he wants to try and play as background manipulater to uplift people and accidentally cause some of the worst humanitarian disasters in history, I guess that's a thing he can do?

But after tiberium, he's on a time crunch, and he has valuable information gdi would be desperate for. His negotiation position would have never been better and he could have been the person in charge of all tiberium related stuff. Head researcher or whatever. He could have pointed people in any direction he wanted.

And if he wanted a space ship in payment? They would probably agree in a heart beat if he helped give them the required knowledge and training to make their own as well.

It's like he's got the overarching goal of getting a ship but somehow the goals of keeping everything secret and needing to be in absolute control got in front of the original goal and are actually impeding it.

I can see the mindset, but with hindsight there were SO MANY better ways he could have done things.
 
Also does anyone realize the ramifications of the line here.

At Alpha Centauri, the Visitors found Kane and Abel, engaged with a local population. Kane wanted to run. Abel wanted to stay and grow these small beings into a new army to fight by their side. Kane forced Abel to try and run, breaking for the outer system, pursued by the Visitors, and as the two fought for control, the Visitors savaged the ship, severely crippling it. With his final action, Abel punched the ship to faster than light speed, delivering Kane to a nearby world. Earth.

We have a gigantic problem beyond just the local tiberium problem. Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away from Earth, it is literally the closest solar system in Earth in our galaxy and it has Visitor presence for over 3,500 years. At best if we visit there we would simply see no planets remaining in the solar system due to the actions of the Visitors which while horrifying in the cataclysmic potential of tiberium and the immense resources drained there at least would be safer than the other outcome. At every other case, if there are still Scrin threshold towers within the Solar system even in the smallest degree, we have a gigantic problem as they have a near direct connection towards Earth even if the Earth connection does not function. Potential ETA to them coming to Earth is unknown but since the Visitors also have a ftl drive as well since they caught up with Able and Kane, it is limited to when they decide to address the situation. This Info has potentially currently shown another countdown we are all under and also why he Kane is focused on leaving the planet as soon as possible. Any ideas?
 
@Ithillid what would happen if we leaked Kane's secret history along with what ever accompanying evidence it came with that convinced the GDI's leadership to believe it to the other Nod warlords ?

-a lot of Nod believe Kane is some un killable divine figure knowing that he is just an alien that switches bodies would ruin that
-many joined Nod thinking Kane will lead them and humanity to a better future knowing that his end goal from the get go is getting a space ship so he can fuck off would crush them
-many signed on with Nod thinking Tiberium was a divine gift and Kane its prophet knowing that it not the case and that Kane saw tib as reason to get off the planet in a hurry would shake them
-plenty of Nod view Kane as the messiah and follow him religiously , how many of them would stay that way if they knew Kane was just using them for his own selfish gaine and saw them as expendable cannon fodder from day one

these document could shatter the brotherhood of Nod , cause mass defections to the GDI from the less fanatical warlords as they realize their is no future for them with Kane and likely trigger a civil war with the already depleted brotherhood forcing Kane to personally go about head capping disillusioned rebel warlords
 
Just remember that the last time Kane tried something like that, the end result was the Soviet Union, and Kane being unable to get Trofim Fucking LYSENKO purged.
I think Kane's problem there was that he didn't have an independent power base and so could be removed from power, or the USSR, or for that matter from life barring wonky resurrection chambers, by Stalin.

I think his best bet in the '90s would be to consolidate power in a single region and industry- more or less what he already did, just with less of a martial focus- and then come forward a few years later without as many crazy warlords forcing his hand by drawing him into a conflict with GDI. Do the same thing, but with less shadiness and world domination.

It could have gone badly, I admit- but the core point is that Kane has done the "work in secret, form conspiracy, try to manipulate or take over the world" gambit over and over and had it fail or only half work on him so many times that it starts to look a little like Einstein's definition of insanity, when you think about it. It's a grand form of insanity- we're talking about a "great" man by the standards history often uses to judge greatness.

But it ain't good, and it's done the world a lot of harm.

On the positive side he has gotten an absolutely kickass leather jacket out of it!

On the more practical side:

Grav bay/ fusion bay/ advanced materials bay is probably the best possibility for us to go forward with building best ship we can, if we want to negotiate with Kane, and we probably want to.
Hm. Now that you mention it, that's a tempting argument.

On the other hand, station bay also helps us build the infrastructure to build a megaship, and I'm pretty sure what Kane would actually want is a megaship.

The thing is, the kind of ships we can manufacture aboard Enterprise won't be to the scale he has in mind, I think, either way.

But it does promote "Advanced Materials," yeah. Knowing we have a plausible incentive to just build a fucking starship to an alien's blueprints some time in the next 10-20-30 years changes the game up a little.

Also does anyone realize the ramifications of the line here.

We have a gigantic problem beyond just the local tiberium problem. Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away from Earth, it is literally the closest solar system in Earth in our galaxy and it has Visitor presence for over 3,500 years.
Well, good thing we're working on a gigantic telescope that lets us take a pretty detailed look at the Alpha Centauri system!

SCEDQuest, don't forget to vote to install a tiberium detector in the Craterscope, okay?

At best if we visit there we would simply see no planets remaining in the solar system due to the actions of the Visitors which while horrifying in the cataclysmic potential of tiberium and the immense resources drained there at least would be safer than the other outcome. At every other case, if there are still Scrin threshold towers within the Solar system even in the smallest degree, we have a gigantic problem as they have a near direct connection towards Earth even if the Earth connection does not function. Potential ETA to them coming to Earth is unknown but since the Visitors also have a ftl drive as well since they caught up with Able and Kane, it is limited to when they decide to address the situation. This Info has potentially currently shown another countdown we are all under and also why he Kane is focused on leaving the planet as soon as possible. Any ideas?
Realistically, this is actually negative evidence.

The Visitors have FTL. If the Visitors had a gigantic industrial complex in the Alpha Centauri system, then they would have reacted to their failure (and the known presence of Kane) in the adjacent Sol system by building a battlegroup and sending it here. They have, so far as we can tell, not done that.

It seems likely that the Visitors have long since abandoned Alpha Centauri. After all, it takes no more than a few centuries to seed a world with tiberium, let the tiberium grow out of control, and turn that world into an uninhabitable exploding mass.

@Ithillid what would happen if we leaked Kane's secret history along with what ever accompanying evidence it came with that convinced the GDI's leadership to believe it to the other Nod warlords ?
Not a Treasury decision.

Also, the obvious consideration you should bear in mind is "could all of this just be an elaborate GDI fakejob?" GDI has plenty of access to sophisticated computers and media experts; if we wanted to create deepfakes of Kane and even falsified documents with Nod authentication seals, we probably could, given enough time.

Also note that if the bulk of Nod really believed Kane was an unkillable god, then we wouldn't see most of Nod flying into despair and trying to move on every time Kane seems to be dead.
 
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Also does anyone realize the ramifications of the line here.



We have a gigantic problem beyond just the local tiberium problem. Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away from Earth, it is literally the closest solar system in Earth in our galaxy and it has Visitor presence for over 3,500 years. At best if we visit there we would simply see no planets remaining in the solar system due to the actions of the Visitors which while horrifying in the cataclysmic potential of tiberium and the immense resources drained there at least would be safer than the other outcome. At every other case, if there are still Scrin threshold towers within the Solar system even in the smallest degree, we have a gigantic problem as they have a near direct connection towards Earth even if the Earth connection does not function. Potential ETA to them coming to Earth is unknown but since the Visitors also have a ftl drive as well since they caught up with Able and Kane, it is limited to when they decide to address the situation. This Info has potentially currently shown another countdown we are all under and also why he Kane is focused on leaving the planet as soon as possible. Any ideas?

I am actually unsure if this is quite correct.
Remember that Kane was here for literally thousands of years and did not worry about the Visitors coming after him - either he was absolutely sure that they thought him dead, or Visitors are utilizing portals instead of ships nigh exclusively.

This said, this does not matter too much anyway, since at least the corporation responsible for the mining expedition was able to come to Earth directly, so they do not even need to slow boat from Alpha Centauri, they can gate in directly if they want to.

This is actually another reason why I was so excited about the portal tech - when we understand it better we hopefully should be able to prevent them from doing that. (Maybe Kane was also able to close down the connection from the tower).
 
This depiction of Kane in the USSR is a far cry from his Red Alert timeline counterpart who was apparently able to turn the USSR into a Nod puppet, was immune to Soviet purges, and was able to get Stalin to go from "Socialism in One Country" to trying to conquer all of Europe.

Here, Kane and his followers spread ideas in the background all around the world but had a relatively limited ability to alter history and human events to Kane's liking.
 
This depiction of Kane in the USSR is a far cry from his Red Alert timeline counterpart who was apparently able to turn the USSR into a Nod puppet, was immune to Soviet purges, and was able to get Stalin to go from "Socialism in One Country" to trying to conquer all of Europe.
Yes.

The Red Alert version of Kane was ahistorically successful at that, compared to the quest-canon version of Kane in which the Red Alert timeline never happened.
 
The problem with the whole Kane should just made deal with GDI in 90's or after first war is that this update talks about how Abel was the calculating planning part of the duo, while Kane is the emotional intutive part.

Kane's fundamental ability to think, to plan is in some way flawed and damaged. It may not be a matter of "He should just done this easy trick", as much as the fact that Kane literally isn't capable of thinking about that, because he's firing of all the emotional panic buttons and none of the logical cause they are all broken.

The 90's, was a time where scientist was worried about literally puncturing the ozone layer, global warming was a know phenemon and barely anything is being done. To say that Humanity would just clean up and not get greedy with tiberium knowing the dangers, just like with Oil and gasses, may not be so clear cut to Kane, who's missing the part of his brain that does this thinking for him.

This may also be way Kane suddenly pivots to actually making a deal with GDI. Because he has the Tacius and the Visitor's tower with LEGION. Kane had essentially rebuilt his logical circuits, whom looked at the info and just gone "Kane, you idiot, you and GDI have the same goal right now", because Kane can now plan in a way he couldn't before.

(Of course, this does mean that if we do end up fighting against NOD again, we may be facing Kane with the ability to actually think logically in a way he hasn't for thousand of years)
 
Red Alert Kane was also working with a world that had no Nazi Germany. So the Soviet Union, Europe, and Asia were in vastly different places than they were in this timeline.
 
While I find this backstory for Kane and the Brotherhood a bit to nice considering al the shit they pulled in the games and all the body horrors Nod created with Tiberium. Really emphasizing that Kane has just been using the Brotherhood and humans as much as he can to get what he wants is a good explanation for how he is able to come back time and again and why he does not care about individual or even groups of people because the monkeys only matter when they are useful does Mack it work.
Not really.

Because in the end?

Everybody wanted tiberium. Everybody.

It's a miracle mineral, you can turn it into basically anything, whatever you need to fuel your economy.

Even if the Brotherhood of Nod hadn't tried to control it, even if Kane had tried to get in good with GDI to push UN control of the material, even if Kane, after some shenanigans, put the entirety of Brotherhood's tiberium mining under the global hegemon's control, a global war would have happened. It's that much a fundamental upset in resourcing, even before you start to consider the environmental impact.

Kane handled this in about the best possible way available by making sure the war did not escalate to a full on strategic exchange despite everything. And nukes still detonated.

So what do we call all the murder and destroying whole villages that Nod did in the first war and after because the first Tiberium War did not need to happen yet Kane was quite fine fighting it in the end.

I would prefer he pay for everything he's done but if I have to settle for kicking the Allien off world after we give him a ship in return for never messing with humanity again I will take it.
 
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Considering the above, this is Kane's post-Abel life in a nutshell.
I feel like you and much of the thread for that matter are massively underselling or outright discounting the fact that Kane has been operating on his own for over 4,000 years with relatively consistent moderate success on average while managing to uphold near total secrecy for more that 99% of that time span
 
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I feel like Kane's pathological need for control made everything so much worse at every step. He wasted thousands of years trying to pull strings from the shadows, make changes in a way he could control, when he had no idea how much time he had left before the tiberium aliens showed up.

He should have gotten down to the business of uplifting civilization properly. Teach things like science, engineering, and medicine. Humanity could have been an advanced civilization in a few centuries, maybe a millennium. They could have had a thousands of years old spacefaring civilization waiting for the hostile aliens, with all that extra technology, population, and infrastructure. Instead he played stupid power games and actively contributed to spreading tiberium faster when he, of all people, should have known tiberium spread was Earth's doomsday clock.

Pet theory; Kane is defective, or else being separated from his other half impaired his ability to make rational decisions to a pathological degree.

It doesn't much matter. He needs to be stopped, and his technology taken so it can be used intelligently.
 
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