- Location
- MSC
Ground to space weapons?
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Sounds like MAWLR time to me.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If Parliament decides that the main focus of this Plan is gonna be space defenses, we WILL have options for fortification on the moon or in lunar orbit.
I think we should wait to find out what our Plan goals are before we make that decision.
- Location
- USA
Well, without a doubt they will want the last two stations.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Starbound is definitely going to shouting for that any which way. Not that anyone wants aliens pecking at too much critical infrastructure up in space- we may have to consider partially evacuating the Philadelphia, or entirely if they look uppity over there around Jupiter- but the pressure to control space on a large scale just ramped up.
- Location
- MSC
Conestogas will likely be put on the back burner?
At least until we launch our first space warships?
At least until we launch our first space warships?
First space warship is probably going to be a Conestoga with guns bolted on.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Dude, have some chill. I'm speculating and working with the information I have and spit balling my ideas. The information I have says we have a lot of military satellite projects and a satellite deployment bay as a construction option. With previously hostile aliens proven to be in the system, having the means to build those military satellites quickly makes sense. What about that is making you emphasize about it?
I'm hearing giant moon lasers
My inner bond villain is very excited
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Stonehenge or bust.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Also, we're gonna need supply and troop transports. Our space warships will be at enough of a tech disadvantage without having to haul cargo or
It does indeed make sense. On the other hand, the ability to build stations faster might also make sense, as might the ability to build a lot of gravitic ships, fusion ships, or both in a hurry. We'll need to look at what Parliament wants to prioritize, or what priorities we select for ourselves off the menu.
I tend to use italics in the same places I would use emphasis in natural language. "We don't have moon defense options now, but if there's an alien invasion expected, we will" is the kind of phrase where the word 'will' might get emphasized, and so on.
Some of our existing railgun designs are probably perfectly capable of achieving lunar escape velocity. So you won't hear me say no...
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
So we should give them a lower barrier to entry with something like Electric Vehicles, not just grants and again if our core parties of Developmentalists or Militarists or Starbound or United Yellow Party or even our edge parties like Homeland Party or Biodiversity Party ask us for grants I'll be all for them. If the Market Socialist Party or the Socialist Party ask us for grants I'll think about it. If the Reclamation Party asks us for grants I'll be very confused and think about it, but if the only ones asking for grants are the Free Market Party or even worse Initiative First and the Free Market Party: No. Just no.
Yes, but Particle HI is a stretch goal to be done after we finish all our goals in HI and don't need to build more power plants or a planned city.
The thing is, he and I have done this dance before several times over the years. I've gotten a bit tired, because getting him to speak plainly and strip out the random weird takes that don't make any sense is always an uphill battle at times like this. If my tone is confrontational, it's because I've tried explaining nicely why certain things are a problem several times and they keep happening.
That would have worked if it had been done shortly after Tib War III. By now, all the multinational megacorporations are ten years dead and no longer exist structurally in meaningful form. Spinning off their subsidiaries wouldn't accomplish anything. And given that InOps must be checking into things fairly carefully to make sure we're not accidentally funding a ton of Nod shell companies, I don't think this would work out very well.
Slavic cypherpunk is an extremely obscure sub-genre from the point of view of an English-language discussion forum. If it contains ideas that are worthwhile for our purposes here, you are going to have to explain those ideas clearly, preferably without using whatever names were made up for it on a webforum in Serbian or whatever.
1) If you want to present someone as a punching bag, I suggest you provide citations. Providing citations in general would be a good idea for you, because you often wish to invoke other people's opinions or views or ideas as something that you can integrate seamlessly into your own. The statement "Dmol is justified in concluding A because Person B has concluded C" is much more convincing if we can see Person B's words and their conclusion of C.
2) I do not think you are fully understanding this significance of this particular video, even when I grant your overall perceptions about CGP Grey. There are two core points of the video.
2a) One point is that there exists an important process by which governments are held together by power relationships and distribution of resources in return for support. Loyalty and sociability and cooperation all exist, but all these things can continue to exist under a change of leader- we can continue to be sociable after declaring our loyalty to a new leader we will be more inclined to cooperate with. Many of the structures that hold governments together are quite simply best understood if one is at least capable of thinking in terms of "what individuals or factions are this government's key supporters, and how does the government reward them for its support?" That's not the only question that ever matters! But it's an important question, and a consideration of political science that ignores this question will usually be very inaccurate.
2b) The other point is that the video attempts to address, in realistic terms, a very important question: "How do corrupt dictators and elected leaders remain in power?" Many worldviews that focus on idealism or what 'ought' to be true do not have explanations for this. Why is it that some regimes are so stable for so long despite the leader being loathsome and cruel? How do certain people even get elected on certain platforms? Again, this is a question that cannot really be understood without discussing the mechanics of power, and how support is translated into power. This is not the only perspective that matters- but there is an important truth in realizing that yes, it is objectively possible to remain in power in a democracy for a long time, by selectively empowering and aiding certain groups of supporters while ignoring the needs of others. That is a thing that happens- and CGP Grey does a good job, I would argue, in explaining how it happens.
3) Even aside from all that, the video was originally cited in a context that cannot justly be undermined just by criticizing CGP Grey in particular. The original point here was about the "resource curse." Namely, that an economy dominated by extraction of a single natural resource and relying on only a very small labor force is easily taken over by a tyrannical figure, who uses the resource wealth to impoverish key supporters and pursue the specific projects that enhance that wealth. But the "resource curse" is a well documented phenomenon. You can find much evidence for it in the literature of sociology and political science. CGP Grey illustrates it well, but did not make it up, and so simply attacking CGP Grey does not really address the reason the video was posted in @mmgaballah 's post in the first place. It is pointless and frankly a waste of time.
I don't think it's that simple. There are some social changes that cannot be undone by any reasonable amount of effort- you cannot un-ring the bell. Changes caused by wars and extreme economic crises are particularly likely to go this way.
Or to look at it another way, some things are changeable in theory but not in practice.
True, but Nod has also targeted many other people within GDI for assassination. Assassination is one of their favorite tactics against us, and the targeting is semi-random. Out of character, Ithillid literally rolls dice for the targets sometimes. In character, Nod often goes after targets of opportunity or simply tries to destabilize GDI by targeting leaders. For instance, Ozawa is out of power and has been ever since his party split up in the runup to the 2056 election. Nod would gain nothing by assassinating him, even if they have no long-term plans to shape GDI politics.
By contrast, throwing the Militarist Party into disorder can plausibly disrupt GDI's political lobby for a stronger military... and Nod is very much concerned about GDI's military getting any stronger, given that they are still putting out the fires from the thumping our military has just given them.
So to some extent, you are trying to see cause and effect in the workings of a random number generator. If you are right, why did Nod try to assassinate Dr. Takeda and General Jackson? Why not assassinate Dr. Granger, who was in many ways the architect of the entire Militarist-Developmentalist strategy that has served GDI so well?
...I don't even understand why you're asking. My point is not "there is no Serbian-language science fiction fandom." My point is that it something no one you're speaking to has ever heard of before cannot be dropped into the argument as if it is a meaningful concept that will be relevant to the discussion. What does the existence of a Serbian-language wiki article on a Test of Time scenario have to do with anything? As is often the case, there seem to be logical connections between ideas in your head that do not exist outside your head. Please explain yourself clearly.
We have strong unions. If mega-cooperatives are squeezing smaller ones out of the markets (I would appreciate evidence)... Then that is a problem that can hopefully be solved by good economic policy. But it is not the same thing as creating a "Slave Empire" or whatever. What is your point?
Dude I'm trying, but I get tired too and then I default to my own English slang instead of trying to communicate properly.
A better question would be if the internal culture of InOps has changed enough that they wouldn't turn a blind eye to worker exploitation like they used to do before Tib War III?
Slavic Cypherpunk is an obscure sub-genre from the point of view of an Native English-language discussion forum. It is a Slavic English sub-genre, as in a bunch of Slavic science fiction fans created that sub-genre trough their fandom of various mostly English obscure science fiction and have been using English as the main language to talk about it. So like I said it's my own default English slang that I'm using and you're right I should explain those ideas clearly, but sometimes I'm just too tired to do so and sometimes I don't even notice that there is anything to explain there. Sorry about that. Trying my best here.
1) Alright: Citation 1, Citation 2. To be clear CGP Gray isn't a hated enemy in the Breadtube community and to clarify what I said there are several Breadtubers who have a video or an argument of his that they just want to punch repeatedly. See Citation 1 for a bare faced example.
2a) Yes but leaving out the fact that if there isn't enough key supporters to any side can and has lead to deadlocks makes the video overly focused on the structure of power once it is obtained without considering how one can obtain or fail to obtain power. Citation that also points out how the minimization of keys can backfire: 2019–2022 Israeli political crisis - Wikipedia
2b) No CGP Grey doesn't do a good job of explaining how some dictators and "elected" rulers stay in power for so long despite being unpopular because he ignores Brain Drain and it's effect on politics of countries and of people in the modern day while also ignoring the historical fact of the existence of Travelers. As in a lot of people would rather leave their location of birth if they can do so and go to a place, static or mobile, that will be more accepting of them and treat them better than fight the current ruling class in their own hometown. It's only recently with globalization and the emergence of a global society that people are starting to realize that you can't just leave a place to degrade into an authoritarian hellscape or an oligarchic dystopia as that will affect the rest of the world.
3) I'm just going to quote the relevant art from my previous post:
Talking about the resource curse while ignoring that the system that supports it is a remnant of colonization that got folded into the modern political landscape is at best ignorant. There is no prey without predators and there is no resource curse without someone(s) doing the cursing. We can go back to the origin of the modern resource curse with El Rey Dorado himself Mansa Musa and go through the history of how the resource curse developed trough the years under colonialism up to the modern day if you like, but if we want to be scared of the resource curse we should worry about groups inside our government that would be willing to go for a coup like Initiative First and the Free Market Party or outside influences that would like to destabilize us and make us weaker like the Brotherhood of Nod or the Visitors.
We have been in a state of low intensity conflict for near 70 years at this point and have only had the economic shock of the alien invasion for the last 15-ish years and we haven't rebuilt our society in that time. Oh sure we have kept it going, but you should keep in mind the examples of Japan, Taiwan, South and North Koreas in the last 70 years for how thing may yet go for us. Japan for an example has rape as a crime punishable by jail, but has also left enough of a loophole in the definition of what rape is that one can drive supply trains trough.
But Nod did try to assassinate Ozawa's son Hideo Daishi back in Q2 2058 and that resulted in some political gain for Ozawa. Look here are the NOD Assassination attempts we have heard of starting with that one:
Each of these have specific context in which they happened. Some are attacks of opportunity, some are targeted attacks on our leadership and some are masterstroke actions. The Brotherhood of Nod isn't a monolithic organization and as such we should be talking about assassination attempts in the sense of which warlord tried which and why and also are the Kane approvedtm or not. Because Kane doesn't want Dr Granger dead:
Dr Granger specifically most likely isn't getting assassinated at this point.
Well in the case of the Test of Time specifically there are multiple technologies that are applicable to our situation in the Lalande 21185 Scenario since it is somewhat similar to our own situation in the quest so trawling trough it's Civilopedia and then suggesting some of the concepts from there to be applied here as Actions/Projects down the line would be of use to the quest.
For an example: Hey @Ithillid do we get to build Fulmine Rings/Towers, giant buildings that store plasma in them until it is time to release it into the athmosphere as anti-air fire that get their name from the ring of plasma that forms around their peaks because of the magnetic field manipulations before the plasma is released in a specific direction, as part of the SADNs if we research the Not-Scrin/Visitor Plasma Missile Battery? Or just advance enough down the plasma research tree?
As for the evidence that small cooperatives are starting to get squeezed out of the markets:
this is the easiest one to point to and my post is long enough without me explaining what ,,"Slave Empire" or whatever'' was about to get to my point about in what way we are going to see small cooperatives start to get squeezed next plan.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Then this has been a miscommunication. Becuase as is well documented, there is no tone on the internet, and as you were bluntly contracting me the emphasis came across as hostile. So sorry about calling for an unwarranted chill, I see that wasn't what you were trying to do.
Are we not already dead set on building a station bay? Or do you have concerns that Parliament will not want the Station Bay and insist on the ship and military bays and we'll have to negotiate something? I'm not completely clear on what you're saying here.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think you're overestimating the importance of the Personal Electric Vehicle Plants action. It means there's demand for such vehicles and the private sector would benefit from it, but just supplying that alone won't change much if the prospective small co-ops don't have the cash to start up their operations. That would take grants.
Moreover, the vehicle plant option doesn't "prove" that small cooperatives are getting squeezed out. It proves that they have a hard time getting their hands on vans and trucks and cars for commercial purposes. Same as everyone else. Large businesses are having trouble getting those too, because there just aren't that many vehicles being manufactured apart from military trucks or civilian-ized versions of the same thing.
At the same time, I bet the Developmentalists will want a grant project; they're not fanatics for the planned economy the way the Socialists are. The Market Socialists will definitely want grants, because their party literally exists entirely because a big chunk of the FMP broke off because they decided they like markets (that is, the private sector) but don't like private ownership of capital. They would very much want us to decentralize our control of the economy by providing grants.
The Militarists and Starbound will likely care less, because they are more interested in the kind of major military and space projects that only Treasury will be doing much with anyway. UYL could go either way. Startup capital for new businesses may mean more opportunities for the incoming wave of Yellow Zone refugees, who are in turn likely to breathe some new life into UYL. They're showing up just as the existing Yellow Zone territories we'd already annexed have mostly gone Blue and their citizens mostly started to assimilate.
Anyway, I fully expect widespread support for grants, but it's quite likely that the legislature will simply take the money and allocate the grants accordingly.
If you mean during this plan? I hope to find time to research the Heavy Industry particle accelerators either this year or early next year, because I'm curious about what it will open up and think it's very likely to improve the efficiency of the otherwise dauntingly expensive North Boston Phase 5.
I wish there'd been time to do that option before starting work on Anadyr.
Yes, because it's been fifteen years since the beginning of Tib War III and the existing labor laws have been in force for most of a decade now. Moreover, the billionaires and megacorps who used to be exploiting those workers most heavily are themselves broken as a class. Their private property has been to a large extent destroyed by Nod and the Scrin or confiscated and used for other purposes by GDI.
I'm not saying a socialist looking at GDI right now would be happy, but I think they'd at least have to acknowledge that the capitalist class has been greatly weakened and that much of the mystique and power they have over society has been supplanted by other institutions, mostly state institutions. They're not so much of a threat that we should fear to put some money back into the private* sector.
_______________
*(that is, non-state-run, as distinct from 'owned by a single individual')
Here, first, you are to a large extent missing or disregarding the context of the video.
2a) is basically you saying "this specific thing, if you keep doing it past the breaking point where it's a bad idea to do it, is a bad idea, so CGP's analysis is wrong." You could do that with a lot of things; it's not a very good argument. For example, if one of the "rules for survival" was "eat food," then yes, eating so much food your stomach explodes is a mistake, but you still need to eat. Likewise, people who wish to retain power will usually try to build some alliance of supporters that is large enough to hold power, but small enough that you can hope to satisfy them all. You can make a mistake and make this alliance too small (and lose power, either to a coup or to a defeat in an election). You can make a mistake and make this alliance too big (including groups who are not helpful to the would-be ruler, and become a liability). But the underlying point remains- to maintain control of a government, you have to make sure to use resources in ways that will please the people or factions that continue to support you.
2b) doesn't seem very relevant. Yes, some percentage of the population of a country may choose to move away if conditions are bad enough. That doesn't mean the person running the country has lost power. The existence of historical nomads like the Romani doesn't invalidate the idea of ruling a country through earning the support and loyalty of allies who can help you hold control. The possibility of brain drain doesn't either; at most it makes continuing to govern the country inconvenient. And that's if the ruler doesn't deliberately fight brain drain by making educated elites a key supporter group, which is a tactic they can choose to pursue if doing so would seem beneficial.
3) is interesting because it is true in some contexts, and inapplicable in others. Many nations have been overthrown by powerful foreigners who want those nations' resources. But even now, when those nations regain independence from colonial empires, some still have problems with "resource curse" economies. The "resource curse" can be beaten, but it remains relevant to observe that one potential way for countries to find their governments taken over by autocrats or corrupt single-party systems is when they have an economy dominated by some single commodity that can be easily dominated by the ruler and his friends. GDI's economy, so heavily dependent on tiberium, really does give so much power to the people who control the tiberium that it makes them a threat in principle if not in practice.
Because of the spaghetti post rules, I will back off from quoting the rest of this post for now.
Okay, let me state my expectations for the next plan. I expect that we will be staring down the barrel of a 150 Capital goods goal that is PS positive, because Nuuk 4+5+Boston 5 =128 capital goods, and you can easily get another 20 out of light industry, with 2 phases of spider cotton rounding it out. And you still have six HI dice unspent with a focus on it, to say nothing of any advisors we might grab for that sector.
Also, Parliment is not a monolith. The group in question is meeting in smoke-filled rooms, not making public speeches. We can therefore make no statements about if they are 'going to make the fourth plan about growing the private industry', because we have no idea if they can actually steer the parliamentary debate in that direction. They may have to *compromise* and be forced to accept things they don't actually want as part of their big tent platform. They may actually be too freaking small to push the debate in any direction.
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- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
This also says nothing about those dice being needed for the construction of further power plants, tech advancements and non-Capitol Goods projects. So I think you might be overestimating it. (And did you account for the possibility of the Bureau of Alternative Energy die being used?)
Possibly not by a lot though. Would not be surprised by a goal of around 100, but not more than that. Asking for more would be a repeat of the careless station targets again.
- Location
- MSC
Any idea if Industrial lasers deployment will lower Energy costs of future projects?
- Location
- USA
For those that it applies to it looks like it since we are getting energy back. Will be interesting to see how our current projects change after those are deployed.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm not overestimating the importance of the Personal Electric Vehicle Action. I'm just expecting it to be a problem down the line and want to do it soon to nip that problem in the bud.
I've already said that I am OK with grants so long as they are coming from the politicians that are broad in their alms to help GDIs economy.
We'll see what it improves after it is researched.
And Roe v Wade was in effect for 50 years. That is not a good point you are making.
The video CGP Grey made doesn't give a warning about going past the breaking point or striking a balance. And before you tell me who would be so stupid: a woman died of water poisoning because nobody was aware that was a thing that could happen among those doing the dangerous stunt and people/animals gorging themselves to the point of death has a a medical term: Refeeding syndrome. As such CGP Grey's analysis is wrong precisely because it doesn't bring up the possibility of overindulgence in pruning the keys, he actually does bring up the dilution of resources if a ruler supports too many keys in the video, because people have done that and will continue to do that. This assumption that everyone is or will always be a "rational actor" that lives their lives perfectly "logically" is itself a logic error.
I'm arguing that this whole satisfy your keys and only your keys is as shortsighted as a corporate quarterly earnings report and with the same logic. Yes it can under a lot of circumstances yield better results in the short term, but in the long term it devastates the ruling class as they cripplingly overspecialize for playing courtly games instead of running a country.
So we should decentralize the harvesting of Tiberium as much as possible then while still keeping it under the purview of the Treasury Department. It's a needle to thread with our actions.
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
So, sorry for the delayed response but I did mention being busy, and also wanting to reply when I had a clear head (from annoyance or sleepiness).
You missed a key word with what I said. I didn't say you were the only one to vocally have a problem with me. I said you were the only one to be so vocal. This might have been in part due to how I basically felt an 'aura of anger' from your comments, whereas for the others it was more 'they are annoyed' at best. If this was incorrect, sorry. If it was correct then... Basically I was saying that sure, there's several people commenting about my post or responses. And sure, there's potentially a fair few people angry at what I did. But those who are both angry and commenting was... you. Maybe one or two of the others are rather annoyed, but they gave the impression of being in a state of "damnit why!" compared to your 'Doomslayer finding yet more demons'.
MOVING ON.
So, that was an enjoyable Omake and definitely something I can see happening. Especially as we've always kind of been a bit lackluster on Consumer Goods production. Sure, we've always achieved the quota but that's all we aimed for. To achieve the quota, not to spectacularly exceed it. There's even valid reasons for that. But we need to remember that we're playing with a narrative system as well as the mechanical one that we see all our 'stat go up' and 'stat go down' on.
For that narrative system? Then the amount of consumer goods we're producing is basically enough so something of everything exists. It's even reasonably priced! But the wait lists are extensive and unless you are in the aisle when a perishable good is put out, forget getting it. We also tend to move onto new types of consumer goods once we've got some of it produced. Which fair enough, works fine for a bunch of things.
But consumer goods such as strawberries and the like? The stuff that are 'everyday luxuries' which don't last that long? It doesn't work so much for those because being able to ensure that everyone can get one once every year or so is way too infrequent for people to be happy with. In fact, that level of supply is likely just enough to make them even madder at us because it shows we could be supplying them but just haven't put the effort in.
Worst of all? All this was before we added twenty or thirty percent to our population. Which means a bunch of things that people could get every now and then are now things that people only get on a blue moon when they're in the right place, at the right time, and are lucky. To make that just that much worse? They have someone to blame, because if it wasn't for all those 'Yellow Zoners', then they would be able to get at least some. And one of our primary objectives is trying to heal those cultural scars, because that's how we inflict a lasting defeat on Nod.
Right now? We're probably losing that campaign badly for the core GDI population. Sure, we're liberating a bunch of the Yellow Zoners which is causing big problems for the Nod Warlords but... Well, the best 'historical what-if' example that comes to mind is that we're Vietnam War era America. Only in this timeline, we're succeeding magnificently at the Hearts and Minds over in South Vietnam. Give it five more years at the current way things are going and it's more likely North Vietnam will collapse before South Vietnam than the other (historical) way around.
Unfortunately, the story back home in the United States themselves is... well, it's about as good as things were historically in late 1960s/early 1970s. At best.
Sure, I'm likely inaccurate in places. But I feel like I'm not off by a magnitude and that's what I'd need to be off by in order for us to be succeeding in a way that's not got the potential to backfire on us.
Okay, so this is the only thing that I felt was worth commenting on after such a delay, as I really don't want to restart any argument. Which this shouldn't. As for the response itself? Well...
You missed a key word with what I said. I didn't say you were the only one to vocally have a problem with me. I said you were the only one to be so vocal. This might have been in part due to how I basically felt an 'aura of anger' from your comments, whereas for the others it was more 'they are annoyed' at best. If this was incorrect, sorry. If it was correct then... Basically I was saying that sure, there's several people commenting about my post or responses. And sure, there's potentially a fair few people angry at what I did. But those who are both angry and commenting was... you. Maybe one or two of the others are rather annoyed, but they gave the impression of being in a state of "damnit why!" compared to your 'Doomslayer finding yet more demons'.
MOVING ON.
So, that was an enjoyable Omake and definitely something I can see happening. Especially as we've always kind of been a bit lackluster on Consumer Goods production. Sure, we've always achieved the quota but that's all we aimed for. To achieve the quota, not to spectacularly exceed it. There's even valid reasons for that. But we need to remember that we're playing with a narrative system as well as the mechanical one that we see all our 'stat go up' and 'stat go down' on.
For that narrative system? Then the amount of consumer goods we're producing is basically enough so something of everything exists. It's even reasonably priced! But the wait lists are extensive and unless you are in the aisle when a perishable good is put out, forget getting it. We also tend to move onto new types of consumer goods once we've got some of it produced. Which fair enough, works fine for a bunch of things.
But consumer goods such as strawberries and the like? The stuff that are 'everyday luxuries' which don't last that long? It doesn't work so much for those because being able to ensure that everyone can get one once every year or so is way too infrequent for people to be happy with. In fact, that level of supply is likely just enough to make them even madder at us because it shows we could be supplying them but just haven't put the effort in.
Worst of all? All this was before we added twenty or thirty percent to our population. Which means a bunch of things that people could get every now and then are now things that people only get on a blue moon when they're in the right place, at the right time, and are lucky. To make that just that much worse? They have someone to blame, because if it wasn't for all those 'Yellow Zoners', then they would be able to get at least some. And one of our primary objectives is trying to heal those cultural scars, because that's how we inflict a lasting defeat on Nod.
Right now? We're probably losing that campaign badly for the core GDI population. Sure, we're liberating a bunch of the Yellow Zoners which is causing big problems for the Nod Warlords but... Well, the best 'historical what-if' example that comes to mind is that we're Vietnam War era America. Only in this timeline, we're succeeding magnificently at the Hearts and Minds over in South Vietnam. Give it five more years at the current way things are going and it's more likely North Vietnam will collapse before South Vietnam than the other (historical) way around.
Unfortunately, the story back home in the United States themselves is... well, it's about as good as things were historically in late 1960s/early 1970s. At best.
Sure, I'm likely inaccurate in places. But I feel like I'm not off by a magnitude and that's what I'd need to be off by in order for us to be succeeding in a way that's not got the potential to backfire on us.
I'm not engaging with the discussion about the wealth trap based on an omake depicting a significantly biased group of politicians, but this is not taking into account a number of factors. The biggest of which is the existence of NOD. Yes, we should work to physically decentralize Tiberium processing, both for logistical reasons and security, and also for strategic reasons. We should not do so to a degree that would compromise security, which "as much as possible" would likely do.
Because right now, long-term *vaguely possible* economic problems, which can be treated by other methods, are not worth strategic security risks.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Agreed. Sorry I forgot to add that into my argument in which I said talking about restraint is a must.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I think the main thing about the "wealth trap" omake is just that it's an illustration of the not-completely-bonkers discussions that might be going on among the various democratically elected officials of our government that might, in fact, not be 100% fans of our work.
Like, reminder from most recent turn post:
Only the Reclamation and Biodiversity parties lack any "Strong Opposition" to us, and both have at least "weak opposition". A full third of the Developmentalist party (around 300 out of not quite 1100) has some measure of Opposition to us. And I'm pretty sure that's the party Seo is at least broadly aligned with!
So yeah, to me the lesson is just "there are people who don't like everything we're doing, and they're not cackling villains but people with thoughts and opinions and concerns". Dismiss the idea at your own peril, etc etc etc.
Like, reminder from most recent turn post:
Only the Reclamation and Biodiversity parties lack any "Strong Opposition" to us, and both have at least "weak opposition". A full third of the Developmentalist party (around 300 out of not quite 1100) has some measure of Opposition to us. And I'm pretty sure that's the party Seo is at least broadly aligned with!
So yeah, to me the lesson is just "there are people who don't like everything we're doing, and they're not cackling villains but people with thoughts and opinions and concerns". Dismiss the idea at your own peril, etc etc etc.
Thesis Review (Canon)
Oledoms
Friesmancer
"This proposal is insane", Seo Thoki blurted out as he read the final part of the proposal, This morning the InOps representative handed him a thesis regarding the next plan provided by a Market Socialist representative with a recommendation to review at his convenience.
After a strenuous day at work, he sent a Copy to the vice Secretary and asked him to his room to review the proposal. An action that he is now regretting after reading the file.
"Not all of it" remarked, Julian Taylor, "I do agree with many of the proposals in the thesis but several of them are rather...flawed in their perception of our current situation"
"I know that he wants to increase the Market Share of the economy and rely more on taxation and service economies and to further expand the quality of life", he replied, "I am fine with it, the problem that we currently have is that Free Trade depends on a peaceful or at least a stable one where we have minimal to no disruptions to Logistics. We don't have that. What we have is a world with at least four world wars and a crystal choking us to death that is so beneficial in Industry that we can provide a better standard of living despite the current situation, Lest he forget,, its been less that two months since the war ended and the fact that the Blue Zones are barely damaged compared to the last one is a miracle"
"I have no qualms about most of the spending request," the Vice Secretary explained, "However, he is right that we have been spending too much on Tiberium and Military, Seo. Even with the grants, there is not enough for people to buy and purchase. I know things will be improving now that the war has ended, but it is time that we make them our priority. Not pie in the sky stuff."
Seo knows, what he meant. He was referring to the Pinhole Portal Project, while few considered it a waste of time to study and reverse engineer alien tech. Julian was among those that opposed the project, feeling that the money spent could have been put to use by increasing agricultural output and providing more consumer products and services would have been the better use.
"That project would have leapt our technology by a significant amount, Julian", he defended the decision, "I know it seems a waste considering the current progress and the need to complete stored food requirements given by the Parliament but i stand by in starting the project,"
"I know, I know", the former ZOCOM remarked, "But the simple fact is that we also need to give our people something else more than just Bland Beans and Fungus bars while we build portals and Sky Drones. Also, we have added another extra 100 Million People on our side, people who are still reluctant to trust us after being years with only Nod to save them. We have to show that we are a better option than Kane and Nod, Lastly, Ozawa and his ilk are making more noise and turning over more people at their side and the more we ignore the consumer goods situation, the more people will listen to their crap and we lose hard earned trust we gained with the Yellow Zones"
"Yes, we will take care of that in time, I promise. We should have enough cash for the remaining 9 months to establish the food supply and get more consumer good released before the next plan" he assured, "However, it is the last part that I absolutely refuse to entertain"
Taylor chuckled, "Yeah, I understand what you mean"
"He wants to limit the harvest for the next plan!", Seo exclaimed in annoyance, "Does he have any Idea how much resources we will need for future projects. Not just stations and scientific research but also for Quality of Life Improvements? Economies take time to go full steam in taxation and services to generate revenue, Tiberium Harvesting remains the fastest and most efficient way to gather both resources and income and with Nod and if I am hearing correct from Space Force, Scrin remnants in Jupiter, we have to keep getting as much resources as possible without sacrificing projects to increase quality of life for our people and new citizens"
"It might be best to get ahead of them", the Vice Secretary shared, " Promise them to increase grants for the private sector. Ignore Taxes for now and just get the companies to start making more products to sell. Build more farms, get that Arcology Bureau setup, show people that Tiberium Harvesting is very important because it allows us to maximize the benefits, You can reduce military spending for now, get the Zone Factories and Shipyards built to take advantage of the workforce but concentrate less on fancy weaponry and focus on the high priorities made by the representatives instead of jumping from one fancy weapons system to another. Spread out our refineries so we are not dependent on Mecca and Chicago"
"I will keep note of them", Thoki assured, "But for now, we need to wait for the next plan for the demands to how we will respond,
After a strenuous day at work, he sent a Copy to the vice Secretary and asked him to his room to review the proposal. An action that he is now regretting after reading the file.
"Not all of it" remarked, Julian Taylor, "I do agree with many of the proposals in the thesis but several of them are rather...flawed in their perception of our current situation"
"I know that he wants to increase the Market Share of the economy and rely more on taxation and service economies and to further expand the quality of life", he replied, "I am fine with it, the problem that we currently have is that Free Trade depends on a peaceful or at least a stable one where we have minimal to no disruptions to Logistics. We don't have that. What we have is a world with at least four world wars and a crystal choking us to death that is so beneficial in Industry that we can provide a better standard of living despite the current situation, Lest he forget,, its been less that two months since the war ended and the fact that the Blue Zones are barely damaged compared to the last one is a miracle"
"I have no qualms about most of the spending request," the Vice Secretary explained, "However, he is right that we have been spending too much on Tiberium and Military, Seo. Even with the grants, there is not enough for people to buy and purchase. I know things will be improving now that the war has ended, but it is time that we make them our priority. Not pie in the sky stuff."
Seo knows, what he meant. He was referring to the Pinhole Portal Project, while few considered it a waste of time to study and reverse engineer alien tech. Julian was among those that opposed the project, feeling that the money spent could have been put to use by increasing agricultural output and providing more consumer products and services would have been the better use.
"That project would have leapt our technology by a significant amount, Julian", he defended the decision, "I know it seems a waste considering the current progress and the need to complete stored food requirements given by the Parliament but i stand by in starting the project,"
"I know, I know", the former ZOCOM remarked, "But the simple fact is that we also need to give our people something else more than just Bland Beans and Fungus bars while we build portals and Sky Drones. Also, we have added another extra 100 Million People on our side, people who are still reluctant to trust us after being years with only Nod to save them. We have to show that we are a better option than Kane and Nod, Lastly, Ozawa and his ilk are making more noise and turning over more people at their side and the more we ignore the consumer goods situation, the more people will listen to their crap and we lose hard earned trust we gained with the Yellow Zones"
"Yes, we will take care of that in time, I promise. We should have enough cash for the remaining 9 months to establish the food supply and get more consumer good released before the next plan" he assured, "However, it is the last part that I absolutely refuse to entertain"
Taylor chuckled, "Yeah, I understand what you mean"
"He wants to limit the harvest for the next plan!", Seo exclaimed in annoyance, "Does he have any Idea how much resources we will need for future projects. Not just stations and scientific research but also for Quality of Life Improvements? Economies take time to go full steam in taxation and services to generate revenue, Tiberium Harvesting remains the fastest and most efficient way to gather both resources and income and with Nod and if I am hearing correct from Space Force, Scrin remnants in Jupiter, we have to keep getting as much resources as possible without sacrificing projects to increase quality of life for our people and new citizens"
"It might be best to get ahead of them", the Vice Secretary shared, " Promise them to increase grants for the private sector. Ignore Taxes for now and just get the companies to start making more products to sell. Build more farms, get that Arcology Bureau setup, show people that Tiberium Harvesting is very important because it allows us to maximize the benefits, You can reduce military spending for now, get the Zone Factories and Shipyards built to take advantage of the workforce but concentrate less on fancy weaponry and focus on the high priorities made by the representatives instead of jumping from one fancy weapons system to another. Spread out our refineries so we are not dependent on Mecca and Chicago"
"I will keep note of them", Thoki assured, "But for now, we need to wait for the next plan for the demands to how we will respond,