- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Navy: Hey guys, we are ready for Eastern Paris.
Treasury: Sorry, too busy making our numbers go up.
Army: But we've been sitting around since the Regency War, we wanna go shoot stuff.
Treasury: NUMBERS. GO. UP.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Treasury: Sorry, too busy making our numbers go up.
Army: But we've been sitting around since the Regency War, we wanna go shoot stuff.
Treasury: NUMBERS. GO. UP.
- Pronouns
- He
Ah great. I have to wonder if it was an actual shoot-down or something like what Bane pulled off in The Dark Knight Rises.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean, if they're really sure they're good to go, we can just slam the job with Infrastructure and Free dice.
Given that we won't have any obligation to "sprint" the project, throwing 6-8 dice per turn at the project is probably fine. Remember, how far we push the progress bar of the project, and the military's ability to win the damn battle, are only vaguely related questions.
I'm a lot more concerned about the Navy not being ready to go. I will be very surprised if they think they're ready to go in 2062Q1. And I will be strongly opposed to the project for quite some time past that point if they're not.
Because I have a reasonable degree of confidence in the other branches' ability to handle Nod India in a battle in Pakistan. India's getting stronger, and the other warlords will be rebuilding, sure. But we're not standing still either. We'll be fortifying, tooling up with power armor, and otherwise enhancing our strength.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Oh good. I was a bit worried that I'd have to point out that Karachi can be done with mostly Infra dice, and so doesn't interfere with Tib harvesting. (More likely to open new opportunities.)
As a complete side point, it may be worth looking at boosting our income a bit higher than our plan goal, and stockpiling some resources for after the reallocation.
Even if NOD does go back to sleep, the Tiberium mutation is still getting stronger. If we can do anything to avoid having to spend nothing in important sectors for a couple of years while we build up income again, we should do it.
Lets not have another outbreak of dreaded 'party culture' in LCI again...
As a complete side point, it may be worth looking at boosting our income a bit higher than our plan goal, and stockpiling some resources for after the reallocation.
Even if NOD does go back to sleep, the Tiberium mutation is still getting stronger. If we can do anything to avoid having to spend nothing in important sectors for a couple of years while we build up income again, we should do it.
Lets not have another outbreak of dreaded 'party culture' in LCI again...
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The big problem there is that income we build up doesn't stay with us, or rather, only 30% of it does. I don't plan to stop doing income-increasing things just because we hit our target, but that's very much a concern.
Stockpiling Resources may be a good idea, but on the other hand we have several very expensive per-die projects (Anadyr, Bergen, suborbital shuttles) that we really want to make a good-sized dent in now, while we still can...
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It may not stay with us specifically, but more income to spread around means everyone gets more pie during the reallocations - our 30 percent is larger, and other departments get more, which given that they're almost certainly rolling for their own stuff in the background gives them a bonus. Notably, InOps has been struggling for lack of resources.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
True.
On the other hand, while every little bit helps, we're already going to be spreading around like 500 RpT to other departments just from hitting our target for the Plan. That's a lot of funds to ingest in a hurry, and it may make up for a lot of other problems.
On the other hand, while every little bit helps, we're already going to be spreading around like 500 RpT to other departments just from hitting our target for the Plan. That's a lot of funds to ingest in a hurry, and it may make up for a lot of other problems.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
On the third hand, while the emphasis is definitely on "every little bit," with Karachi delayed we legitimately have nothing better to do with our Tiberium dice aside from the refinery upgrades and harvester refits. That's going to be what, maybe 10 dice? And we can slow-walk it.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Other departments getting more funding is a big problem?
Maybe if we have the GDI income high enough the other departments won't need as big a slice to function. Even if they do, it means more that they can deal with without us funding it for them anyway.
I'm either numbering this wrong, or the GDI total income will have increased by over 50% by the end of this Plan.
Yes, but the reason we can't afford that stuff later is because we end up spending 2 years building our income back up by spending on expensive Tib mining projects.
So you could have just have easily written the reverse: "Spending on expensive per-die projects now may be a good idea, but we might want to have some spending money for expensive Tiberium projects (Glacier Mining, RZ Border Offensives, etc) so that we can get our income back up."
- Location
- Wall Gazing
I think the GDI's current total GDP is 1955. 1895 (Q3 2060 Tib Processing) + 35 (Q3 2060 Space Mines) + 5 (YZ Tib Harvesting Phase 9) + 20 (Lunar Heavy Metal Lunar Mines Phase 2). Our Plan income was 90 at the start of Q3 so we'll have a minimum of 1895 + 35 + 90 = 2020 total GDP for the GDI going into reallocation if we accomplish the minimum income increase. That would leave us with a 605 RpT if we got 30%, minus our expenses. 15 (Forgotten) + 35 (Grants) + 30 (Reconstruction) + 5 (Resettlement) = 85 for ongoing costs.
That leaves us with a ~520 RpT budget post reallocation.
Its been mentioned that some of the expenses can be spun off into other departments and that there are more projects like the Division of Alternate Energy so that might change.
Speaking of that, we know there is an auto Housing division gated behind the current phase of Arcologies, we have the auto Energy division unlocked, and the auto consumer goods is the private industry. So I wonder what we need to do to unlock things like auto Food or Capital Goods. The former would be very useful for what look to be challenging Food storage goals in the coming plan and more capital goods are always useful. If I had to guess, I'd say the auto Food is behind the Vertical Farming projects.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
Well, auto Capital Goods would have happened if we had invested heavily into private enterprise in Heavy Industry.
So the first step is likely the release of excess Capitol Goods back onto the open market.
After that, I expect that there are some options that are currently hidden due to the whole War thing.
Vertical Farming sounds about right for Agriculture. We haven't really done much more than the bare minimum with regards to Food.
If we were to get more stuff built that produces things that people actually want to eat, I expect that would open up options for spinning them off.
Ranching Domes may also be important.
So the first step is likely the release of excess Capitol Goods back onto the open market.
After that, I expect that there are some options that are currently hidden due to the whole War thing.
Vertical Farming sounds about right for Agriculture. We haven't really done much more than the bare minimum with regards to Food.
If we were to get more stuff built that produces things that people actually want to eat, I expect that would open up options for spinning them off.
Ranching Domes may also be important.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Auto-indicator mechanisms seem to work differently depending on whether we're doing something like grants (invest an RpT stream to get results from things that aren't state-owned enterprises and don't burn dice) or just spinning off a government department (sacrifice dice and a smaller RpT stream to get a steady result).
Our Consumer Goods trickle comes from the former- we did grants in Light Industry and Services to get it.
Our prospective Energy trickle comes from the latter- we'd be permanently sacrificing a Heavy Industry die, and subsequently getting +3 Energy per turn. The dice-to-Energy rate of return isn't great, but at an effective cost of 10 R/die it's cheap, so it may be a good deal next Plan if we don't have super-ambitious Heavy Industry targets.
An auto-Housing trickle, at this point, would probably be like the Energy trickle- we'd lose an Infrastructure die and some amount of RpT, and in exchange we'd get a fixed amount of Housing per turn.
An auto-Food trickle, by contrast, could work either way. It could involve co-ops and private enterprises trying to grow food, or it could just involve our own Agriculture department spinning off a Bureau of Building More Farms. The thing is, luxury foods are modeled as Consumer Goods, so I'm not sure what shape that would take.
When the Navy's willing, nothing but the monsoon season will deter me.
It's just that I don't think the Navy's going to be ready until 2063-64, and I think that's okay. Because it takes more than 1-2 years to even begin to remedy true naval weakness, and we started the Regency War in a condition of true naval weakness.
Our Consumer Goods trickle comes from the former- we did grants in Light Industry and Services to get it.
Our prospective Energy trickle comes from the latter- we'd be permanently sacrificing a Heavy Industry die, and subsequently getting +3 Energy per turn. The dice-to-Energy rate of return isn't great, but at an effective cost of 10 R/die it's cheap, so it may be a good deal next Plan if we don't have super-ambitious Heavy Industry targets.
An auto-Housing trickle, at this point, would probably be like the Energy trickle- we'd lose an Infrastructure die and some amount of RpT, and in exchange we'd get a fixed amount of Housing per turn.
An auto-Food trickle, by contrast, could work either way. It could involve co-ops and private enterprises trying to grow food, or it could just involve our own Agriculture department spinning off a Bureau of Building More Farms. The thing is, luxury foods are modeled as Consumer Goods, so I'm not sure what shape that would take.
I'm waiting on the Navy.
When the Navy's willing, nothing but the monsoon season will deter me.
It's just that I don't think the Navy's going to be ready until 2063-64, and I think that's okay. Because it takes more than 1-2 years to even begin to remedy true naval weakness, and we started the Regency War in a condition of true naval weakness.
Upgrades, refits, vein mining, Red Zone offensives, other projects that give +income so that we have fewer requirements next plan...
We have a lot of things to do with Tiberium dice.
The "timer" metaphor doesn't really work, because GDI's position isn't static. We keep improving, too.
My thoughts were that Q4 2061 is possibly the earliest feasible start point, but Q4 2062 is probably the earliest practical start point. Either that or Q1 2063. Really depends on how fast the frigate and carrier yards get completed and how well we do against the raiders/Bintang this turn and following turns. And whatever new crisis might pop up before that point.
--
Maybe Agri Mechnization could be a start point for an auto-Food option? Possibly alongside Ranching Domes or other options?
--
Maybe Agri Mechnization could be a start point for an auto-Food option? Possibly alongside Ranching Domes or other options?
- Location
- Wall Gazing
Honestly at this point, I'm almost willing to start putting a few free dice in to Agriculture just to get the Food and Food storage situation more under control. Its not necessary yet, but depending on how things go it could actually be reasonable to do so. Not only are a lot of the dice we need in Agriculture R cheap, but the freed up R could be used for more expensive projects like Anadyr and Bergen. Still it remains un practical for now as we still need the Free dice in military, but in Q1 that might change.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but most of those are income-enhancing, which does wrap us right back around to "we should do income-enhancing things."
Nod has always been able to devote a larger fraction of its economy to warfare than we can outside emergencies.
And Im pretty worried about what Krukov's invention of the Vagyr-class antigravity cruiser is about to do for Nod's international shipping capacity and economic output; if you can ignore Red Zones and coastal ports when moving tens of kilotons of cargo.....
Thats something I want to get well ahead of before it proliferates.
Plus there's whoever the submarine warlord is, who has managed to retain strategic ambiguity several years after we ran into the first Falak. Base, industrial capacity, rate of investment, all remain unknown.
Cant account for what we cant see.
1 goes without saying.
2 is a nice to have. I dont think its essential; ZA suits are effective, but the better answer to superheavy enemy infantry in the open is generally not to mirror image them.That said, no reason we shouldnt have more power armor in the field by the beginning of 2062. And it is important for other purposes; at a bare minimum, it frees up ZOCOM forces to protect our next resource push in 2062
3 is a luxury for this though. And possibly unusable, at least in those numbers.
We can support orbital drop troopers in raiding strength, with each OSRCT phase giving us access to a reinforced mechanized battalion ; IIRC, Phase 4 allows us to support the equivalent of four reinforced mech battalions in space at a time.
I dont believe we can do the same thing for divisional or corp-strength forces; the logistical requirements seem pretty wild, even if we're assuming they dont have organic artillery to supply ammo to.
If general Nod A2/AD is so badly attrited that we could supply mass drops that size, we'd be flying V35s to insert airmobile forces.
My opinion.
A lot of our reserve cargolift is going to be tied up in the Indian Ocean for three to six months.
And the Indians are in the process of accumulating a fair number of markers to get people to take limited actions on their behalf.
The inhibitors the Order stole ended up in India for example.
It could yes.Or it could not.
The Indian subcontinent were apparently hit very hard by the Scrin during the Third Tiberium War, and had every reason to (presumably)focus on rebuilding instead of picking fights in the interregnum since.
But its been ten years since the end of T3, and they have rebuilt their domestic capabilities to the point of being able to maintain Blue Zones. Stolen GDI-Scrin technology yes, but more than any other warlord has been capable of setting up.
Not Stahl, not Bintang, not Krukov.
And there's only one GDI BZ sharing a border.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah, but Karachi doesn't magically nullify any of this. Nod will still be working on flying ships, and turning central Pakistan into a Green Zone isn't going to automatically tell us who the "submarine warlord" is, or even if there is one as opposed to just a bunch of warlords all using the designs. And, again, GDI's not standing still. Our industrial capabilities are growing by leaps and bounds too, y'know. India has spent a decade focused on building up its capabilities after taking a pounding from the Scrin? That's nice. So did we.
If you're right, then having four such battalions ready for drop is still going to be a lot more impactful than two. While India will be aware and mentally prepared for our ability to drop troops, it's still a relevant capability in exactly this form of warfare, because it lets you heavily disrupt defenses at the worst possible moment for them.
As for Zone Armor, I honestly agree with you that it's not an essential for Karachi, but it's very helpful. First, because it's not only a counter to biomonsters, it's also a broadly effective tactical tool in lots of situations. Second, because the Indians will probably be trying to use biomonsters in close combat against us whenever possible and Zone Armor is one of the best counters to biomonsters if they manage to get in close. Third, because the exact formations that will be tooled up with the armor first are likely to be the same ones that would be committed to Karachi, so it is likely to have disproportionate impact on "offensive spearhead" operations... like Karachi.
Plus, I anticipate it becoming a political necessity for us to work on it. It would probably be a good look if we start building the factories before Ground Forces start burning political capital to force our hand and make us hurry up and do it already, the way they finally did with point defense for the tanks.
You're not wrong- but again, this smacks into questions of capacity, and into the superiority of defense over offense. We are not a static target; the areas we have just overrun in Steel Vanguard are going to be significantly fortified and swept and otherwise secured over the course of the coming years. Some of the warlords have suffered major losses in offensive assets and even two years from now are unlikely to be able to manage major offensives. Some probably will launch major offensives to draw pressure off India- but they'll be operating at the disadvantage of having to attack into our defenses, instead of being on the defensive themselves. Given that by then, our stockpiles of munitions will be replenished and we'll have fully integrated systems that now have limited availability (e.g. wingman drones), I think we can cope.
[Shrug]
We'll just have to see what happens.
We'd have to be utter fools to try and FIRMLY "schedule" the go-date for Karachi now, 18 or 24 or 36 or more months of game time away. That would be sheer madness. There are several interlocking factors that will determine how fast or slow we go. The perceived level of threat to BZ-18 is one of them. I'm not going to assume the threat level is huge and utterly overwhelming in advance of seeing the evidence, but neither am I going to assume that the threat is negligible. We'll see. Developing events may impact our sense of timing and urgency, just as might developing events in the naval conflict, or in other respects.
Just to point out on the GF Zone Armor. We're not going to get enough to have a Zone Armored vanguard of GF forces for Karachi, regardless of when the factories start. Because there's higher priority needs for them. Those Green Zone sections bordering Red Zones? The garrisons there will need Zone Armors. Deep Yellow Zone fortress towns not yet Green Zoned? The GF garrisons will need Zone Armors there. More importantly will be gearing up units to take over garrison duty on glacier mines, etc from ZOCOM.
That's what's important for Karachi. Freeing up ZOCOM detachments that can be deployed offensively once more, like concentrating for Karachi. They will be far more experienced at using and fighting with the Armors anyhow. Which means we'd definitely need Zone Defender Revision as early as possible with the factories, so more Armors for GF get built and more ZOCOM get freed up sooner for taking the fight to the enemy.
And given we'll have OSRCT Phase 4 minimum by then... We could bring a lot of Zone Armor pain down around Karachi when the time comes.
--
As for Vargyrs, I'd hold any major concern over its ability to operate in Red Zones until the lab boys have autopsied the captured one. After all, ion storms typically down any airborne units and ground any hovering units (like Hover MLRS, Slingshot, Scatterer, Orca Command Vehicle). And last I heard, Red Zones had ion storms pretty regularly. So unless we discover that the design has found a way to (temporarily) negate this issue, it's capabilities crossing Red Zones safely is somewhat in doubt.
Better yet, if it has found a way, then we have a way. And our industry is in much better shape to take advantage than Nod's. (We just need to make sure it's clear which branch air ships belong to - AF or Navy... or ZOCOM.
)
That's what's important for Karachi. Freeing up ZOCOM detachments that can be deployed offensively once more, like concentrating for Karachi. They will be far more experienced at using and fighting with the Armors anyhow. Which means we'd definitely need Zone Defender Revision as early as possible with the factories, so more Armors for GF get built and more ZOCOM get freed up sooner for taking the fight to the enemy.
And given we'll have OSRCT Phase 4 minimum by then... We could bring a lot of Zone Armor pain down around Karachi when the time comes.
--
As for Vargyrs, I'd hold any major concern over its ability to operate in Red Zones until the lab boys have autopsied the captured one. After all, ion storms typically down any airborne units and ground any hovering units (like Hover MLRS, Slingshot, Scatterer, Orca Command Vehicle). And last I heard, Red Zones had ion storms pretty regularly. So unless we discover that the design has found a way to (temporarily) negate this issue, it's capabilities crossing Red Zones safely is somewhat in doubt.
Better yet, if it has found a way, then we have a way. And our industry is in much better shape to take advantage than Nod's. (We just need to make sure it's clear which branch air ships belong to - AF or Navy... or ZOCOM.
)
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
There's little functional difference between "deploy 1000 Zone Armor suits to Ground Forces so they can free up 1000 ZOCOM Zone Troopers to fight at Karachi" and "deploy 1000 Zone Armor suits to Ground Forces so they can fight at Karachi.
Also, each of the Ground Force Zone Armor factories is roughly three times the size of any one of the six ZOCOM factories we built. Even having one or two of them will probably result in a rapid rollout of a large amount of Zone Armor, probably enough that within even only a year or so, we'll already be seeing a significant chunk of ZOCOM "freed from other duties." Remember that ZOCOM is a force measured in the tens of thousands, while Ground Forces, even if we only look at the spearhead formations, likely numbers in the hundreds of thousands- millions if you count everyone.
The one catch is that Nod has nearly arbitrary amounts of transuranics, whereas GDI is much more limited. If it turns out that hover battleships use a lot of STUs, we have a problem.Better yet, if it has found a way, then we have a way. And our industry is in much better shape to take advantage than Nod's. (We just need to make sure it's clear which branch air ships belong to - AF or Navy... or ZOCOM.
Unofficial, but I remember having someone on this thread having the idea of a Hewlett-Gardener planned city intended for mass STU production.
- Location
- Mobile, Alabama
GM would have to confirm but I'm not sure why this wouldn't be possible with the right research. Just stick it around the right Red Zone and tune the refining to the right process.
Decim
On again, off again lurker.
- Location
- St. Louis, MO
We'd probably make Abdul-Pascal-Kane plants for mass STU production. Those are the ones that are hyper tunable to get STU production through the roof, if at the cost of not getting any other Resources out of the Tib.
I misremembered, then.