And here's where I think we have our biggest disagreement.

Not that the Navy's in a bad way--it totally is and we should fix that pronto. But by all accounts when one wants an Air Force pilot one starts with their grandparents, and particularly with Firehawks we've been spending them like ammunition every time we bump into a Barghest-bis. That's in no way sustainable unless we get the Firehawks their own little designated dying buddies.

We should be investing strongly in both the Navy and the Air Force this quarter and probably for a few quarters yet.
It would have been best for the war that is right now, if both had been done a year ago. But other things were more important back then, and so the problems that are right now are the ones that needs to be solved.

I guess 3 dice could be removed from Escort Carrier Shipyards (Nagoya), and the die from Mastodon Heavy Assault Walker Development as well. Which would free up four dice for the Airforce, and push back those projects to the next quarter. Not a bad compromise I should think.

4 Military dice should be enough for about (4*26+200) 304/450 progress on Firehawk Wingmen Drones, which would then need about ~3 dice the next quarter to complete.

Thanks for feedback! I will try to adjust my sheet later. The trouble with adding the completion chances is that my understanding of statistics is rudimentary at best. I could just copy paste the numbers from Derpmind, but I wouldn't really understand how she came to them in the first place.

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
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As a reminder on Political Support

We're at 72. Merchantman conversions will drop it to 62. If we do 4 dice of Plan Negotiation, that drops it to 38 PS. If we get Wadmalaw kudzu phase 2 done as part of our Plan Goals progress, that'll put us at 48 overall.

Now and the near future is not the time to be completing -PS projects. Low PS means people start making noises about Seo resigning, and the lower it gets, the louder and more demanding it'll get. We don't know the impact on PS failing Plan Goals will have, but if we lose more than 10 PS from it, Seo's on extremely thin ice with keeping his job, if not being asked by the Director to resign. We cannot afford to spend PS on anything other than the two things mentioned above. If we can manage to get Sports Teams done, that'll give another 10, but it's also -Health and we're already low on that as is. Ranching Domes give +5 PS, but it eats food and when we're looking at -34 PS over the rest of the Plan plus whatever we might suffer from failing to meet Plan Goals....

And unfortunately, we don't really have the dice guaranteed available to push Shala or Columbia a phase or two for more PS (+5 phase 1 each, +5/7 phase two) except maybe at the end of the Plan. BZ MARV hubs only give 1 PS each, so I'm dubious about the value in resources and dice to get those out for the purpose of increasing PS.

Depending on the state of the war when we do Sports Teams, it might not get (non-mechanic based) complaints. After all, if we're in a good spot, starting up professional sports again shows that the Treasury has confidence in the war being on the downswing towards conclusion and GDI victory. And despite some good blows by Nod the first 3 months of the war (and likely getting in the second 3 months), overall GDI has been winning the war. Which means we can definitely say it's not a Tib War, because Kane starts those and they always start with GDI put on the back foot everywhere.

--

BB Yard upgrade for better constructing CVEs - Do recall that the ones being built there are a 16 turn build time, compared to the 6-8 turn time of a dedicated yard. Doing the upgrade could drop it to 6-8 like the others, but I'm expecting it to be more like 4 turns (1 year) off the build time, giving us 12 turns total build time. If they build more batches from those yards instead of using dedicated yards, that might end up down to 10 turns per batch. Also, depending on how the naval war goes, GDI might be looking at building replacement battleships, which could likely cut into new build numbers for CVEs.

It works in a pinch, but we better not skimp on getting proper yards if we want them in a timely fashion. And we aren't planning to skimp, given our commitments with the CAMs.

--

As an aside, I said that Stahl was the most dangerous Nod leader short of Kane himself. I said that he was most likely to be the main character of a C&C Nod campaign.

I hate being proven right. Any chance we can get a commitment from the military next Plan to turn South America's YZ green and blue? Gotta prevent any more Nod main characters from forming there. :D

I'm sure they will understand when we explain it. Biggest thorn in GDI's side in Tib War 3? A fucker from South America. Biggest thorn in GDI's side in Regency War? Another fucker from South America that apparently read the previous guy's playbook. We need to prevent that fucker from going global under Kane's command in Tib War 4 and/or a "third generation" Nod commander spawning down there that not only actually reads the entire Nod playbook (unlike the vast majority of Nod warlords), but also reads the playbooks of the previous two generations of annoying fuckers.

Also, I'm guessing Legendary Insurgent died (at the latest) prior to the Marked of Kane moves early in the quest, since apparently it was Ajay(?) leading them in Asia and there's no reason for him to do so if the other guy was still alive.
 
The worry about low PS is massively overblown. Back when we hired the Qatar Loyalists in Q1 2051, Dr. Granger dropped down to 20 PS. And we didn't go back above 20 PS until Q2 2052, five turns later, when we reached 25 PS. This wasn't during a war, but rather during the early days when we were short of Housing, Energy, Logistics, and Capital Goods. Back when it wasn't certain we could even stop Tiberium from eating the entirety of the Blue Zones.

If Dr. Granger wasn't fired under those conditions, then Seo is going to be just fine.
BZ MARV hubs only give 1 PS each, so I'm dubious about the value in resources and dice to get those out for the purpose of increasing PS.
Edit: You're thinking of the BZ Inhibitors. With the most recent update, we now know that BZ MARVs will give a full +5 PS each.
 
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While I am not privy to how Ithillid runs some of the finer details of the Quest, I think it can be assumed that Seo will still stay with us until the end of the War even if we somehow redline it to 0 PS. Remember the narratives: Changing horses mid-race is a bad thing. If Boyle can get away with half of what he did as the head of the GDI for the Third Tiberium War, Seo can too.

The key question here is whether Ithillid will hew to VSNKh's GPW aftermath bit, where Mikoyan's performance and conduct during the war dictates the PS Loss or Gain.
 
TBH I think PS losses are more than manageable and even an acceptable cost to doing things that while may be unfavorable, would help more than hinder. Because so long as the war can be ended faster and more effectively, then in the end wouldn't that be more preferable than doing things politically nicer but less time-efficiently?

A great example is Liquid Tiberium Power, where it's noticeably faster and easier to make them vs Fusion at the moment, which is particularly pertinent at this time when limited dices during War is a major concern, while having so much HI stuff that people could invest in instead.
 
This is the sort of argument that's scummy enough that it pushes me towards conducting Karachi out of spite. Which is bad for you, because it's driving people that would otherwise be inclined away from your position, and it's bad for me, because I'm being convinced of a position opposed to yours for all the wrong reasons. I should not be inclined one way because the proponents of the other feel the need to resort to histrionics.

Sorry friend this got lost in the shuffle and I went to bed, but there really is no histrionics. I am honestly spooked in the extreme by Karachi and I do genuinely believe that going off half-cocked on the original highly optimistic timetable has a very real possibility (battle rolls dependent) of getting a whole expeditionary force cut off on a foreign shore at the tender mercies of a foe we have dramatically little intelligence on. It's not a new position born out of desperation of my pet plans not winning it's how I've felt for literal months, you can go back and read me talking about my stomach turning over thinking about this.

That was several quarters in the past and I was told I was wrong for being worried about the navy but now everyone seems to agree and now I'm being told I'm wrong again for what? Holding that same position? If you just don't believe the things I type I've got nothing to work with here friend.
 
Also, I'm guessing Legendary Insurgent died (at the latest) prior to the Marked of Kane moves early in the quest, since apparently it was Ajay(?) leading them in Asia and there's no reason for him to do so if the other guy was still alive.
I am unsure but either this guy died at the end of TW3 or he's hanging out with Kane in his nerd tower I think.
 
Edit: You're thinking of the BZ Inhibitors. With the most recent update, we now know that BZ MARVs will give a full +5 PS each.
Oh, huh. Yeah, I was. +5 is a better result from them, so now I'm not as concerned about them ending up as options.

I think there's the difference between when Dr Granger dropped to 20 (and oh god, we did? We did. I wasn't really paying attention to that stuff as I was catching up on the threadmarks when I started reading the thread) and now is that we didn't fail Plan Goals (and everything was in a much worse place compared to 10 years later, so we probably had more leeway). The unknown effects of that hanging over us as potential problems makes things worse. Though, given that example, it's possible that I'm overly worried about Seo getting the boot.

OTOH, we have reallocation coming up. Dr Granger got back up to 70 PS from that 20 before the end of that FYP. We're risking going into reallocation with 58 or less PS and potentially failed Plan Goals hanging over us. Seo might still be in the seat, but we might not have a lot of wiggle room next Four Year Plan.
 
There's persistent rumors that he died but I don't trust that until we have a body in this setting. Hell, even a body's not enough proof in C&C sometimes, although Kane is a bit of a special case.
 
If we have 2 spare military dice, and if you don't want to put them toward navy or air force projects for some reason, we could develop mastodon and the hallucinogen countermeasures. Get those out of the way I suppose.

Edit: whoops to late.
Well, good news, I did what you wanted. One die on a navy project (one likely to benefit the SADN if-when we do that, because I DO want that), and one die on Mastodon development.

Personally, I'm fine with not doing a bay until after getting stage 1 of each of those projects, Since We could use the PS, and it would increase resistance to nod sabotaging Rockets bringing food. (I'm imaging it would make emergency rationing till a new shipment comes much easier)
However if people want the Station reduction Bay still then not doing stage 1s before the bays makes more sense.
(From the bay options we've seen Personally I would Rather have the other ones then the Station-building Bay)
It kind of half defeats the purpose of the station-building bay, or at least the purpose of building the bay now, if we do the other stations first. The total cost savings from a bay that applies a -10 to Phase 1 of a station is -310 Progress to the total cost. That drops to -150 if the station is already expanded to Phase 2.

Spending 400 Progress on a bay that rewards you with -620 Progress on two stations at least makes sense. Spending 400 Progress on a bay that rewards you with -300 Progress is kind of pointless; you could only make up the Progress gains later with other projects that are still gated behind stuff we haven't built yet and cannot foresee.

It still is quite useful, making our Blue Zones a really hard nut to crack has strategic benefits in itself. We have reasonably assumed that one of Kane's goals is to conquer enough of our Blue Zones and there accompanying industry to for-fill his evil plans, making him have to deal with a bunch of MARV's to do that would help keep our Blue Zones safe.
True. On the other hand, Blue Zones are quite strongly defended as it is, and the QM once remarked that even Kane would have a hard time busting in and taking one. Note that during Tib War III, initial Nod penetrations into the Blue Zones tended to be of the "raid and fuck stuff up" type, not the "occupy permanently" type, and GDI was able to drive the Nod forces back out. It wasn't until the Scrin showed up with overwhelming firepower of their own that the Blue Zones really started taking devastating damage.

It would also really shut down the Warlords if done with our Strategic Area Defense Networks, making it almost impossible for them to take a Blue Zone which is most of their's goal.
Well, SADN is really only good against certain specialized attacks; it just so happens that they're really nasty attacks with bloodcurdling consequences. The problem is that it'd take something north of 1000 Progress on the project to get to that stage.

HI 5/5+3 free 150R +29
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 6) 30/300 5 dice 100R 100%
-[] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 3) 352/640 2 dice 40R 4%
-[] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Development (New) 0/80 1 die 10R 70%
I see what you mean about deliberately slow-rolling Nuuk. Personally I want that Capital Goods surge because I want to be in such a strong Cap Goods position that we can start thinking about AEVA rollouts and cool stuff like that. But we can probably get away with it.

As for LCI... if you're slow-rolling the medical supply factories to avoid wastage and concentrate on projects with rollover... I'd honestly rather slow-roll Reykjavik Phase 4 (which does nothing we have immediate mandatory need for) and speed up Bergen. We're likely to need Phase 2 or more likely Phase 3 of Bergen to see any appreciable benefits on our fusion energy economy.

As for Agriculture, I think we can stop building more aquaponics and focus on the Kudzu plantations until we actually clear Phase 2 of the kudzu action or get definite signs that we urgently need the Food. Our surplus is, after all, not small. You talk about doing the storage actions after the freeze-drying plants finish, but I don't think we can afford to do that right away anyway because we can't just can/freeze-dry/whatever up all our current Food surplus when we have a large but indefinite number of refugees coming at us to eat that surplus themselves.

In Orbital, I think we should just hammer heavy metals or regolith with all six dice, as long as we can get two phases in a row of one of them. We don't have enough Rare Metals phases to fill the slots, so we have to do the more expensive ones anyway, and doing them now is more cost-effective, in that they will pour back enough RpT into the treasury to more or less pay for themselves before reapportionment, while the rare metals mines won't. We get double the return on investment from the bigger mines, so given that we have to do big mines AND rare mines anyway to meet our Plan goal, we might as well do the big ones first.

I'm a bit anxious about putting three dice on AMA in Services because I don't want that project to complete and cost us -4 Capital Goods and some Energy when we don't necessarily need it right away. If you're trying for a minimalist approach, the operating theaters are good enough.

(Me, I'm not minimalist; I want the medical supply factories to complete this coming turn because I see that as being necessary regardless of what else we do, because many of the health problems caused by the war can only be solved by sheer quantity of supplies.

Military 8/8+4 free 240R +26
-[] Advanced ECCM Development 0/40 1 die 20R 100%
-[] Firehawk Wingmen Drones 0/450 3 dice 60R 0%
-[] Plasma Warhead Factory (Phase 1) 53/90 1 die 10R 100% (15% for phase 2)
-[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (Battleship Yards) 0/120 2 dice 40R 87%
-[] Merchantman Carrier Conversions 150/200 1 die 20R 92%
-[] Shark Class Frigate Shipyards (Seattle) 0/300 3 dice 60R 14%
-[] Medium Tactical Plasma Weapon Deployment 0/80 1 die 30R 72%
Hmm. You have different passion projects than me, but respectable. Though:

1) I think we should do the frigate yard in Melbourne due to proximity to Bintang, and
2) What's the value you see in developing medium plasma weapons at the moment? If I'm throwing the Talons a bone this turn, I'd go for the Mastodon itself, since that's the one we promised.
 
Orbital: 5 dice on making Lunar Heavy Mines, should finish current Phase and get most of the way to the next one. 1 die on Orbital Cleanup to work towards Support and Power Sats.
We've cleared the requirements for Support Satellites already. Power Satellites aren't likely to be something we can afford during the current Plan without spending Free dice in Orbital, and they're not likely to be an efficient way to use Free dice when compared to allocating those same dice to fusion reactors.

The fusion craft are the only thing we have that can climb out of Earth's gravity well, and are the bottleneck on both currently existing industrial launches and any hypothetical evacuation rates. I'm a lot more worried about getting off Earth as step 1 to any plan for space development than I am about getting access to Belt minerals, that's a problem for after we've got a solution for getting everyone off the planet.
I think you missed something.

See, the thing is, if we need ships that can leap off the Earth into space, we can put the factories for them on the ground, because by definition the ships can leave Earth under their own power.

A ship that is well designed for deep space flight, be it shuttling ore from the Moon to an industrial station, or shuttling crews to a Mars base, or towing asteroids... such a ship will probably be explicitly better off not having to tack on the additional design requirement that it be able to take off from the Earth.

Earth is where we have millions of laborers and endless supplies of tiberium. Any ship that must leave Earth's gravity well as a design requirement, might as well be built down there. The reason for a space-based shipyard is to build all the ships that need not and can not escape Earth's gravity well under their own power.

Basically, the movement chain for all our stuff in space for the medium term future will look like

Earth <==( #1 )==> Earth Orbit <==( #2 )==> Everywhere Else.

The big stations in Earth orbit are the 'middlemen' between Earth (source of personnel and key rare supplies) and locations like the Moon, Mars, Venus, and the asteroids.

Now, ships that are optimized for Route #1 must be able to lift off the Earth and return to it, which means very different design constraints than anything (fusion or G-drive powered) that flies Route #2. But with our current technology, no ship truly optimized for Route #2 can be built on Earth, because it can't leave Earth.

A shipyard on Enterprise has no good reason to be building craft for Route #1- that's not its comparative advantage. The comparative advantage for a shipyard on Enterprise is in building ships like Pathfinder, or hopper rockets with a peak acceleration of 0.4 gravities for bouncing around on the moon. Things like that.

We are yet to develop Mastodon, so next turn would be the development project for it.
Oh. God. Got confused there. Well the logic applies- I can want to spend the die on the Mastodons any which way.

Run the fusion rocket fleet flat out 24/7 launching nothing but people - no supplies, no industrial launches, no cultural preservation efforts, nothing but refugees crammed in every corner of the ship - for the next 50 years straight and we can evacuate about 100-120M people before Earth's doomsday timer runs out. That ain't gonna cut it for me, we need to at least quintuple the size of the fusion rocket fleet just to get all the start-of-game Blue Zoners off the planet, much less the rest of humanity and anything we want to bring with us. Fusion rockets are our only viable evacuation method, and we need an unspeakable number of them. Starting up the fusion shipyard now is kind of a big deal, it really should have been started years ago. Delaying years more is losing out on tens if not hundreds of millions of people worth of difference in evacuation capacity.
Again, you're totally right that we'd need vastly more fusion rocketships to evacuate everyone from Earth... but if we're gonna build those, we should be building them on Earth, since by definition any craft capable of evacuating from Earth can be more efficiently manufactured there, at least for now.

It was made for fun, so please don't start a big angry argument, those kinda suck the enjoyment out of things. But be sure to come with suggestions and questions, if you have them.
Hm, would you like to hear my comments? I don't want to make you feel 'fought,' but I might be able to discuss some of the tradeoffs and thinking that go into my own planmaking.
 
The more I think about it the more I'm leaning hallucinogen countermeasures over the mastodon.

I still want the mastodon but the hallucinogens cause permanent damage and are most used against our best defenders.

We would increase security and probably increase our health if we didn't have to deal with that anymore.
 
I see what you mean about deliberately slow-rolling Nuuk. Personally I want that Capital Goods surge because I want to be in such a strong Cap Goods position that we can start thinking about AEVA rollouts and cool stuff like that. But we can probably get away with it.

As for LCI... if you're slow-rolling the medical supply factories to avoid wastage and concentrate on projects with rollover... I'd honestly rather slow-roll Reykjavik Phase 4 (which does nothing we have immediate mandatory need for) and speed up Bergen. We're likely to need Phase 2 or more likely Phase 3 of Bergen to see any appreciable benefits on our fusion energy economy.

As for Agriculture, I think we can stop building more aquaponics and focus on the Kudzu plantations until we actually clear Phase 2 of the kudzu action or get definite signs that we urgently need the Food. Our surplus is, after all, not small. You talk about doing the storage actions after the freeze-drying plants finish, but I don't think we can afford to do that right away anyway because we can't just can/freeze-dry/whatever up all our current Food surplus when we have a large but indefinite number of refugees coming at us to eat that surplus themselves.

In Orbital, I think we should just hammer heavy metals or regolith with all six dice, as long as we can get two phases in a row of one of them. We don't have enough Rare Metals phases to fill the slots, so we have to do the more expensive ones anyway, and doing them now is more cost-effective, in that they will pour back enough RpT into the treasury to more or less pay for themselves before reapportionment, while the rare metals mines won't. We get double the return on investment from the bigger mines, so given that we have to do big mines AND rare mines anyway to meet our Plan goal, we might as well do the big ones first.

I'm a bit anxious about putting three dice on AMA in Services because I don't want that project to complete and cost us -4 Capital Goods and some Energy when we don't necessarily need it right away. If you're trying for a minimalist approach, the operating theaters are good enough.

(Me, I'm not minimalist; I want the medical supply factories to complete this coming turn because I see that as being necessary regardless of what else we do, because many of the health problems caused by the war can only be solved by sheer quantity of supplies.
Nuuk is such a large energy hog though and I have concerns on running energy low and being vulnerable to disruption. Also I cant see a spare HI or Mil dice Q4 to do the AEVA with and those are the categories I would hit first.

Reykjavik overkill goes into the next phase though and I want that done this Q3 so we get a further discount on mechs and power armor to use Q4. As for Bergen upping that to 3 dice would mean cuts elsewhere.

Agri could change- I do think we need more of a food cushion as enough refugees could eat it up more so as we roll some into strategic stockpile.

Orbital- Lunar Rare metal is less dice needed and makes it less likely we have to put free dice into orbital to finish Ent 5 and 5 mines. It is basically 2 mines for the progress of 1 mine in our other 2 options. So trying to keep free dice for HI and Mil for the time being. Between Q3 Tib and Lunar Rare Metal I think that gets us to the income that we can care about which project and less about fitting costs on top of existing income- and this way we can slow roll phase of rare metal at 1 die a turn until it finishes to maximize our die chances. Can't do that if we try to rush it, rushing lunar heavy metals on the other hand works out since that will have stages to overflow to.

For AMA we have the cap goods to support it (Reyjavik 4 will finish and cover the cap good and energy cost) and Nuuk is something we should be able to bring online Q4 along with more power. Though it is as low a chance to pass as can be (no reason to overkill and instead drop 1 die a turn on future turns until it finishes). We do want a nice saved health buffer but with Neural finishing I see no reason to potentially overspend dice wise on +Health projects so going with min dice for a chance to finish stuff like AMA each turn to spend the minimum amount of dice we have to.

1) I think we should do the frigate yard in Melbourne due to proximity to Bintang, and
2) What's the value you see in developing medium plasma weapons at the moment? If I'm throwing the Talons a bone this turn, I'd go for the Mastodon itself, since that's the one we promised.
Melbourne is fine, Seattle was just listed first and as it is my current rough plan is to start the 3rd frigate shipyard Q4 (in essence 3 dice a turn on frigate shipyards until they finish which lets us roll all 3 out by end of Q1 and still lets us roll out other mil projects). As for the med plasma- it is a deployment that does not take energy or cap goods so provides an improvement that goes active, and at likely 1 dice to rollout that is a nice boost. So while we are doing some longer term projects this gets something else (along with plasma warheads) to provide a boost to our armed forces in the meantime.
 
Why exactly do we want to put all 4 die on Reducing Plan Commitments anyway? We're on track to still hit almost all of them. The only general consensus pick seems to be reducing/removing the Stockpile Food mission & possibly delaying Karachi, depending on how the Navy feels in 2061. That's one or two things from what I see.
 
Part of the gumption for reducing plan commitments comes from Discord information WRT this turn's results. Namely, some of the commitments will be significantly harder to reach than they may currently appear.

For more specific info, we'll all just need to wait for the results to drop.
 
Why exactly do we want to put all 4 die on Reducing Plan Commitments anyway? We're on track to still hit almost all of them. The only general consensus pick seems to be reducing/removing the Stockpile Food mission & possibly delaying Karachi, depending on how the Navy feels in 2061. That's one or two things from what I see.
We have a lot of lunar mining that stops us from setting up support satellites.
The last report from ORSCT seemed to indicate that further phases will not meaningfully impact the current War.
We still require more military consumables factories, but Shell Plants hasn't been a Priority for a while. (Although the big push for Fortress Towns may change this.)
So we are locked into what may be sub-optimal targets.
Kudzu is a luxury that could be replaced with Poultice Plants.
 
Part of the gumption for reducing plan commitments comes from Discord information WRT this turn's results. Namely, some of the commitments will be significantly harder to reach than they may currently appear.

For more specific info, we'll all just need to wait for the results to drop.

Crap...

They hit something important then.
 
Hm, would you like to hear my comments? I don't want to make you feel 'fought,' but I might be able to discuss some of the tradeoffs and thinking that go into my own planmaking.

Yeah, go ahead.

The reasoning for that part of my post was the rather heated, and at times bordering on toxic, discourse. That took place at the end of last planning cycle / beginning of this one.

I think and believe that it is fully possible to disagree without getting frustrated, or at least that everyone should strive to allow for a good attitude towards each others opinions.

So for the record, while in hindsight I should have worded it better, it wasn't really my intention to stifle discussion.
 
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