Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
I was hoping I wouldn't have to say it, but it doesn't really matter. What you mean, and what is written do not have to be the same things. And what you had written, is, well.
[X] Plan I Refuse To Give Up On Karachi Yet
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[] Plan One Step Forward
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
EDIT: SV isn't counting my vote, using a new post.
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
EDIT: SV isn't counting my vote, using a new post.
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- Location
- USA
[X] Plan One Step Forward
Sorry Simon. I like your plan as well but I really like the air force stuff in this one and since conversions are in this one now and the votes really close I'll switch to just this one.
Sorry Simon. I like your plan as well but I really like the air force stuff in this one and since conversions are in this one now and the votes really close I'll switch to just this one.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[] Plan One Step Forward
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
EDIT: updated vote.
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
EDIT: updated vote.
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- Location
- California
[X] Plan One Step Forward
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Point of order, it doesn't have the conversions yet. Given the response so far, it's likely I will make that change, (in aprox. 6 hours) but that depends on if it continues to get support and not get pushback.
- Location
- New England, State of Confusion
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan One Step Forward
- Location
- USA
OK, but if you are putting in tick diggers and conversions I'm voting for your plan.
I am against changing to doing the conversions unless the frigate shipyard has a greater then 50% chance of completing. I am fine with your alternative proposal, but not the After one.
The final decision point is this turn even if the actual landings would be in 6-9 months, that's why we have to decide now. If we're going in 2061 that significantly changes how aggressive we need to be on shipyard construction to even attempt it, and whether we're planning to go in 3 turns or in 7 turns significantly changes what supporting projects we have time for beyond the shipyards. Overkilling shipyards now on the expectation that we'll go in '61 only to have a plan win next turn that pushes it back to '62 is wasted dice/progress/resources somewhere that's already super tight, we need to actually plan ahead and know FOR SURE what we're doing because a 2-3 turn timetable is significantly different than a 6 turn timetable. We can't make a call the turn before, because we have to make decisions on what gets built with what urgency now. Spending the next 3 turns doing the "will we or won't we?" dance with each other will be infuriating as half the thread plans for '62 and writes plans with that in mind, while the other half keeps planning on '61. A fundamental disagreement about what our strategic plans are is bad for planning, especially if two competing strains of thought are fighting it out in the thread and win on different turns, spiking EVERYBODY's plans.
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- Location
- Oregon
The problem is we don't get frigates as soon as the shipyards finish. We get frigates years after the shipyards finish cuz they gotta build em.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Doesn't really hold up to me. The argument for Conversions + Shipyards right now is to surge Navy as hard as we can to support the weakest link of Steel Vanguard. Its effects on Karachi are largely incidental until we hit 1-2 quarters out, look at the strategic situation, and make the call to either negotiate lower requirements or put the chips in the pot.
[X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, vein edition
[X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan A Broader Step Forwards
The bill has come due, as it was set to and the time has now come to stop chasing the Karachi dragon. Even a one year delay would be our salvation. I am now a single issue voter and will be on the side of anyone who wishes to finally heal this persistent ulcer.
[X]Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karachi, kudzu edition
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, Even More Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan: Factories, Refugees, MORE Vanguard-ees
[X] Plan A Broader Step Forwards
The bill has come due, as it was set to and the time has now come to stop chasing the Karachi dragon. Even a one year delay would be our salvation. I am now a single issue voter and will be on the side of anyone who wishes to finally heal this persistent ulcer.
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- Location
- The Underdark
It is on the list, just not unlocked yet.
"Surge navy" doesn't do anything for Steel Vanguard besides the conversions, they're the only things that might feasibly matter. And this argument isn't about whether to do the conversions or not, it's about if we should do Karachi in 2061 or not. Which significantly changes our build order and how much we need to overkill things, for example the only reason we could have to massively overkill a frigate yard this turn would be if we 1) wanted to gamble on it finishing this turn, because 2) we wanted to gamble on them completing as fast as possible and 3) we wanted to gamble on a 2061 Karachi at a bad time of year being meaningfully affected by those frigates (that probably will take longer than 9 months for the first run anyways).
If you don't want to make those multiple gambles however, then overkilling a frigate shipyard this turn is just inarguably wasteful when we have so much to do in the Military sector. Overkill is lost dice/progress/resources that we never get back, with 7 shipyard projects to build plus the conversions plus everything else making saving dice very important during the war, a 2062 Karachi lets us roll at more efficient completion chances for the shipyards and save multiple dice on average. This is just one niche example of how the timeline affects our procurement strategy but frigates are hardly the only thing this applies to, just about every military project is subject to change on scheduling and overkill based on if we have 9 months or 2 years to get ready because none of this shit happens instantly and we have to plan more than one turn ahead. In the planquest. Shocking, I know.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Arguably, the final decision point was last turn, when we went with Steel Vanguard instead of Eastern Paris. But that's an argument made in hindsight, so.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
This is just wrong. Steel Vanguard is deeply aided by the ability of the Navy to support the Ground Forces and Air Force with fleet assets. Like, it would not be in the strategic outline as "This is the weak link that could make Steel Vanguard grind to a halt" if that was not actually, y'know, the case.
If we do carrier conversions now, that means the infrastructure is ready in 2060q2. Then the conversions themselves have to happen, that's at least 1 more quarter, more likely 2.
The carriers won't be ready for operations then, if we are extremely lucky, that is only 1 quarter, more likely it is 2 quarters, they'll still need to drill crew. And if we want the ability to haul around a squadron of Orcas we'd be better off with the Assault Ship development project. For the ship, at least, there's not a lot of difference between an V-35 and an Orca.
It's the weakest link because not rolling out escorts risks GDI's supply lines getting choked off by Nod operations. Our best bet against that is as many frigates as quickly as possible so Nod can't degrade shipping capacity.
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Yes, and my point is that frigates laid down in Q2 vs. frigates laid down in Q3 both take too long to complete to affect Steel Vanguard, they'll be there for the aftermath but the only hull type available that can hit the water before the offensives are over is the CVEs. Rushing frigates instead of efficiently building frigates is only relevant to 2061 Karachi or not, Steel Vanguard ends before they can come online either way. We slept on the navy way too long and now we have to deal with not having one, and yes we need to start building one but it won't be ready until 2-3 years from now so for Steel Vanguard specifically we're either losing or we're winning with the navy we currently have. Construction started this turn (besides maybe the CVEs) will not be ready in time to change the outcome of Steel Vanguard because Steel Vanguard is only going to last maybe a year longer at most and the ships take longer to build than that.