A couple other interesting things about the Casablanca Class. They are most numerous class of Aircraft carrier ever built at a total of 50. 5 were lost in the conflict for a 10% casualty rate, and of those one was only damaged before being scuttled. The US carrier casualty rate in WW2 was ~11% over all so its not as if the Casablanca's losses were excessive despite being merchant hulls. Arguments that they are 'deathtraps' are exaggerated.
To be fair, Nod is a more menacing air-naval opponent than either Germany or Japan was circa 1943-45 when the Casablancas did the bulk of their service.

They are not as good as the actual Escort Carriers, but we need hulls.
I quite agree.

On one hand, I do think that we are going to want to do Merchantmen conversions, whether or not we do Karachi.

On the other hand, I don't think that aiming for Karachi Q1 or Q2 of next year is a good idea.
I'm not at all sure it is, myself. I just refuse to give up on it.

On the third hand, an invasion of Karachi in Q4 is tempting, as technically it could be possible, weather permitting. It likely wouldn't be enough to finish our current minimum of 3 phases completed, 4 allocated by end of plan (as it takes a full quarter during the dry season to finish 3 phases), but it might be nice to have an additional month of construction going into 62.
Ehh. We could totally pour in enough dice progress to get to Phase 4 in a single turn.

I'm not entirely sure Gulati would see that as us keeping our promise to her, but it'd certainly constitute a good faith effort, and it'd be a lot easier for us than trying to find the RpT income to do the same thing in 2063 after reapportionment.

Remember, we don't have to have everything built, just funded, and it'll get built as soon as the engineers get the details sorted on the ground.

Gulati will probably even be helping there, because I'm sure she's been planning this project for a loooong time.
 
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@Derpmind What do you think about switching from laser deployment to merchantmen conversion?
It's the same cost, same dice investment needed, and you still have a plasma warhead factory going to help with the air battle along with the Apollo wingman drones.
 
I will at this point approval-vote literally any plan that includes the merchantman conversions, including absurd meme plans and plans that contain projects I oppose.

We need hulls. We need them now.

@Simon_Jester for me at this point I am going for the merchant conversion next turn but I want to get some actual escort carrier production going and with the other demands on mil I did not have enough dice without removing free dice from HI which I think we need to do to keep support for additional mil dev next turn.
I know exactly how you feel, but I decided to reverse those operations, because we need the merchantman conversions to fill the immediate gap. The products of the light carrier yards won't be available for another 7-8 turns or so in any case, so it matters much less if they're pushed forward and become available in 8-9 turns instead. The war may be over by then, or at least some of the major warlords will be too exhausted to continue prosecuting it, reducing the strain on our arrangements.

Whereas the lack of the merchantman conversions is going to matter now, during the current war.

Assuming Plan I Refuse To Give Up On Karachi Yet wins, my 2060Q3 plan will probably spend somewhere in the vicinity of 12 dice on the military, and will have the following naval appropriations, roughly:

[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (Battleship Yards) (New) 0/120 (2 Dice, 40 R) (87% chance)
[] Heavy Support Laser Development 0/50 (1 Die, 20R) (100% chance)
[] Shark Class Frigate Shipyards (New) 0/300 (4 dice, 80 R) (64% chance)

Subsequent turns will spend fewer dice on frigate yards and more on carrier yards, keeping overall appropriations at about six dice, and spending most of the rest to pump up the Air Force, with a possible 1-2/turn trickle to other areas such as the Talons, hallucinogen countermeasures, or railgun munitions.
 
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I'm not at all sure it is, myself. I just refuse to give up on it.
Why? It's not like we won't do it. It is just stating that we can move it to the next year/the beginning of the next fyp. The next year is better cause we can get more ships online for an actual invasion rather than going in with a navy that may not be up to snuff. Karachi is us landing a bunch of troops on the shores and holding, while building a city. Our navy might be able to handle it...or it could be entirely substandard for the mission. But the chances of the latter is much lower if we give the ships and extra year to come online.

The actual building itself, assuming that we don't make it in Q1 or Q2, would be done in the winter seasons. No one is building in that region during the Monsoon season cause...well pretty evident why building in a monsoon is a bad idea. Pakistan has a Monsoon season during July - September and a retreating Monsoon season during Oct and November. Meaning that the best place to start is in December which is the end of Q4 and no amount of dice is letting us shock a city in that time

So why is it necessary to do it next year with the deadline being as painful as it is?
 
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[] Escort Carrier Shipyards (Battleship Yards) (New) 0/120 (2 Dice, 40 R) (87% chance)
I have to disagree on this, battleship yards is not going to get the full serial build bonus going and is going thanks to also needing to do maintenance and repairs on the battleships. Better to get a dedicated yard online more so since it sounds like the CVE will be useful post war as well.

I know exactly how you feel, but I decided to reverse those operations, because we need the merchantman conversions to fill the immediate gap. The products of the light carrier yards won't be available for another 7-8 turns or so in any case, so it matters much less if they're pushed forward and become available in 8-9 turns instead. The war may be over by then, or at least some of the major warlords will be too exhausted to continue prosecuting it, reducing the strain on our arrangements.
Merchant conversions can fit in next turn for me- mainly because I am looking at mid 2061 for the launch point of Karachi as at that point we should have wingmen drones and the other air upgrades online and have some of the frigates rolling out. It also is likely enough time to roll out ECCM and stealth disruptors and have better success at hunting the enemy naval units as well as finding their operating areas. Now if you are going for Q4/Q1 Karachi I can see the conversions needing to be done this turn.
 
IIRC, Karachi construction is phases 1-3 in a single turn of the dry season, phase 4 (plan commitment) in the next turn of dry season, and phase 5 in the following turn of dry season (so minimum of two years to complete), regardless of the amount of dice and resources invested. Pre-investment isn't wasted, but it doesn't complete the phases any faster than allocating the dice and resources as needed.
 
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While I'm tempted to poke India with a stick to find out what's going on in there, because I am dying of curiosity to find out what fresh horrors the qm has cooked up for us.

I don't think we should, until at least we get escorts and frigates built and the ships entering service.

Because, worst case, we have way underestimated how hard a target it will be. If we do end up losing the fleet we send we might not have the naval forces to protect our shipping. Nod gets the opportunity to crush our global logistics for however long it takes to get enough hulls out to replace our losses. Which would be particularly bad if the war is still ongoing.

So my take is build the frigates and carriers even though we will miss our window for this plan, unless something drastically changes with the regency war
 
No, you're thinking that the heavy navy laser is the one that is likely to help SADN?

Since I'm still SADN-curious, would you mind expanding on your reasoning?
It was mentioned on the Discord as being relevant, for one. Also, the SADN was directly gated by Naval laser PD, since they both are operating against similar target profiles.
We know what we can do with a full effort on Karachi in a single turn because we know how dice math works. Getting to Phase 4 is very much achievable, even in a single quarter. That was always the plan for the Sprint; we're just postponing the part where we finish the project (that is, complete Phase 5) until the Fourth Plan.
This is problematic, because we will not actually achieve 1-turn construction of Karachi, regardless of how much effort we put in. IIRC, Ithillid said that if we did achieve full Phase 5 progress (in the context of starting it Q1), it would complete Phases 1-3 in the first turn, Phase 4 the next turn, and then finish Phase 5 Q4 or Q1 the next year, depending on how bad the rains interfered.
Karachi is a full-year+ project as far as naval support goes. Now, that's not saying that I think it's absolutely impossible to meet our goal - but I think that it's narratively a good idea to recognize that we have a good chance of not being able to responsibly do it, and if so, renegotiating things as soon as we can seems like the best option. (Again, from the narrative point of view.)
[] Plan: Release the Krakens!
Nobody ever likes my plans. :(
I barely ever get feedback about why.
Feedback! *screech*
Oops, sorry, not that type.
First thing is, 2 dice on Nuuk is pretty light. I'd prefer more, even if we're not going to complete this turn.
I don't like ignoring the medical supply factories from LCI, because servicing the Health indicator is just as important as helping our Military, IMO.
There is no reason *not* to do the Battleship shipyard project first for Escort Carriers. It's cheaper in every way.
And while I do want to do the Mastadon and plasma weaponry, now is the time to either do botes or air force - tossing those dice into the plasma AAMs would almost certainly be a greater help, quicker.
I have to disagree on this, battleship yards is not going to get the full serial build bonus going and is going thanks to also needing to do maintenance and repairs on the battleships. Better to get a dedicated yard online more so since it sounds like the CVE will be useful post war as well.
Where is this said? Or is it just something you think makes sense?
 
[X] Plan A Broader Step Forwards
[X] Plan One Step Forward

I think that actually settling the question on our plan targets is massively more valuable than 2 BA dice so I still think that my plan is better, but I can at least throw an approval vote at One Step Forwards to try and get it ahead of whatever the hell's going on with Shipyards, Tech, and Industry. A bunch of tech we can't afford to build, SADN instead of anything Steel Vanguard related, and really chancing things on health. Definitely don't like it, no sir, although again I think my plan that actually settles the Karachi discussion instead of forcing us to have it for another turn minimum is significantly better.

As for Karachi, I strongly disagree with the idea that we can go in '61 even if we do crash-build frigates and CVE's. If everything goes absolutely perfect and neither the frigate yard nor the CVE's fail their rolls, and they both build as fast as theoretically possible (in the middle of a world war with an enemy actively trying to blow them and supporting industries up), then we'll barely have 50 hulls in the water with their paint still wet to support a badly timed Karachi that's probably going to get bogged down halfway to Tibet because we landed too close to monsoon season. Too many "if everything goes perfectly" for me, because something will inevitably go imperfectly over the next 9 months and then our scenario that was already right on the edge of infeasibility becomes totally infeasible when we're two dozen hulls short thanks to them taking 12 months instead of 9 or something.
 
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[X] Plan A Broader Step Forwards
(still kinda against this because it going for lunar mines instead of orbital clean up, But I also understand going for the mines(Personal preference to get the debris away to prevent any potential masterstike against a orbital hiding behind debris or something, Its not i expect weird semi-impossible shenanigans))
[X] Plan One Step Forward
 
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[x] Plan I Refuse To Give Up On Karachi Yet
[x] Plan By Apollo and Poseidon
[x] Plan Second Vanguard, delaying Karchi, balsa flattops
[x] Plan No Develop, Only Deploy
[x] Plan One Step Forward

If we want to apologize to the Navy for making them take the CAMs, let's be sure to get all the CVE yards done by end of plan regardless of commitment level, all the frigate yards if possible (I'd sacrifice a yard or two here in order to complete Plan goals like developing and deploying the Mastodon), and hopefully Orca or Hammerhead drones. Probably Hammerhead if we could only get one. Because they'd be our ASW helos, and having more helos in the air would really help locate a sub or discourage them from getting closer. Also, make sure we get the inferium lasers developed, and depending on resources, at least design either the assault ship (gee, what would be useful for a naval invasion to build Karachi.... ;) ) or the monitor, even if we don't build any yards for them until next Plan.

On a related note, who designed the carriers we had for Tib War 3, and are they still alive in universe for me to shoot for putting out such an awful design? They apparently carry Firehawks and Orcas, but their flight deck is designed so that Firehawks would have to take off and land on the exact same section of deck, and thus launching/recovery can not occur simultaneously (also, have to question how big a strike package they can launch at a time and how long it takes to get airborne...). Plus it seems like they have to fly at the bow of the ship for landing, since superstructure and Orca pads kinda block the landing path from the rear. Is there any way to write in a new CVN design project so we can get rid of such godawful designs for something more sensibly laid out? :rofl2:

Re: Mastodon, since I mentioned it earlier. I'll just point out that "designed for, but not with" is a thing (we just saw it with the Sharks, and M1 Abrams were designed for a 120, but came with a 105 initially), and the Talons are probably not idiots that won't account for designed but not yet deployed systems, or won't get an estimate of power needs, etc for laser systems based on systems used by other branches if they feel an upcoming development might be very useful to the design. It also won't need NIS Refits complete (not that I think we're going to be leaving that incomplete) since it'll be designed from the start to use it. Basically, let's not let it languish in an effort to unlock more shiny tech to throw at it. Perfect is the enemy of good, and all that. But we have 6-7? more turns to worry about developing and deploying it before Plan ends, so not yet a pressing concern either way.

Edit: I would support Plan: Starting our Strategic Area Defence Networks and giving the Navy Hulls, but it has Inferno Gel development, and do we really need -5 PS on top of everything else that might consume our PS in the near future?
 
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(still kinda against this because it going for lunar mines instead of orbital clean up, But I also understand going for the mines(Personal preference to get the debris away to prevent any potential masterstike against a orbital hiding behind debris or something, Its not i expect weird semi-impossible shenanigans))

I figure that getting the Enterprise a full mix of metal inputs so it can stop relying on Earth for shipments of vanadium etc. is better for our space industry than a bonus stage of orbital cleanup that we don't super need. It would actually be cheaper to go back to orbital cleanup, the mines made me drop an automated medical assistant die, but since the mines are both a Plan target we have to do and a strategic improvement for our industrial base I figured they're worth it.
 
I figure that getting the Enterprise a full mix of metal inputs so it can stop relying on Earth for shipments of vanadium etc. is better for our space industry than a bonus stage of orbital cleanup that we don't super need. It would actually be cheaper to go back to orbital cleanup, the mines made me drop an automated medical assistant die, but since the mines are both a Plan target we have to do and a strategic improvement for our industrial base I figured they're worth it.
yeah, I figured there worth also, which is why I'm willing to vote for your plan its just personally, I prefer orbital cleanup this moment for the stated reasons. (even though usually I'm all for doing the mines as soon as we can)
 
Yeah. The Navy is pissed.

I don't think they're going to be less pissed if we don't do the merchantman conversions in the long run; they're just going to be more actively blaming us for all the battles we lose, or win-less-well, because the Navy couldn't be there because we didn't build any flattops.

I don't know if that will manifest as Political Support costs, or as the Navy pushing the legislature to twist our arms into building a gigantic naval expansion in the Fourth Four Year Plan, or what... but we're gonna pay a price. We should be looking at the political price of doing the conversion carriers as part of the tax we pay for neglecting the Navy.

Ignoring the Talons had relatively few costs and downsides. They're small.

The Navy is big. What they do is a big deal, and no one else can do it. They have clout. They're mad at us. We're gonna take some hits from the beat-stick.

The time to build the ships for this war was last plan. Unless a war lasts more than 2 years, you always need to have the navy you need already build.

Now, I had believed that the Governors would've been enough, but I also had not believed the Karachi sprint would've been a thing, and I had believed that, when we started speaking of the Karachi sprint GDI would do so at a time of heightened activity but not the dogpile we are in.

But now?

Karachi this Plan is unlikely at best. Even with carrier conversions, Karachi this Plan is unlikely at best, because for Karachi this plan we need to have the merchant carrier conversions or CVEs ready for operations by Q1 2061. And they won't be. Even if we slammed out all the yards this turn, we'd be lucky to have either of them by Q2, far more likely is Q3, or early next Plan.

But we can substantially affect the course of the war by slamming out a large number of frigates, fast. They're probably going to be a late arrival, coming online when the war's already decided, but they can substantially affect the Regency War and the post Regency War environment.
 
Thinking over the debate: It looks like Simon_Jester is primarily saying "Let's get more botes now", with a secondary message of "and not give up on doing Karachi before we have to".
While my argument is "Let's ensure that we can put off Karachi until after the war is over," with a secondary message of "and ensure the Navy gets the botes they want, since we can get some of them out in about a year. They seem to think they can hold the line until then, so long as we don't make any further asks."
In the text of the options, the first one is working around battleship :First is simply building a number of supporting elements to build carriers between supporting the battleships
The first one is basically taking over a battleship yard, shoving the maintenance actions to a few slips, and using most of them to build new hulls. It's possible that it will be slightly less efficient/produce fewer hulls, but that's your presumption, not something directly supported by the text.
 
While my argument is "Let's ensure that we can put off Karachi until after the war is over," with a secondary message of "and ensure the Navy gets the botes they want, since we can get some of them out in about a year. They seem to think they can hold the line until then, so long as we don't make any further asks."

If you want to postpone Karachi why isn't your plan actually trying to postpone Karachi is my biggest question I guess. Yeah we could try to do the renegotiation action next turn but then the argument has to be had all over again, I think that if we're going to postpone Karachi we need that question settled this turn one way or the other. If we don't postpone, we need that known for sure so we can scramble correctly over the next 6-9 months. If we do postpone, we also need to know that for sure because it really changes our naval build strategy. Regardless of which way we eventually come down, either call needs to be made this turn IMO.
 
[X] Plan I Refuse To Give Up On Karachi Yet
[X] Plan: Starting our Strategic Area Defence Networks and giving the Navy Hulls
 
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[X] Plan Shipyards, Tech and Industry
Infra 6/6 110R +34
-[X] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 4) 232/250 3 die 60R 100% (17% for phase 5)
-[X] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 3) (Upated) 159/300 2 dice 30R 84%
-[X] Tick Rapid Digger System Development (New) 0/40 1 die 20R 100%
HI 5/5+3 free 170R +29
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 5) (Updated) 232/300 3 dice 60R 100%
-[X] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 3) 118/640 3 dice 60R 0%
-[X] Crystal Beam Industrial Laser Development (New) 0/80 1 die 10R 70%
-[X] Isolinear Chip Development (New) 0/60 1 die 40R 90%
LCI 5/5 110R +24
-[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 4) 378/640 4 dice 80R 97%
-[X] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 1) 0/95 1 die 30R 45%
Agri 3/4 20R +24
-[X] Security Review
-[X] Blue Zone Aquaponics Bays (Phase 2) 3/140 2 dice 20R 74%
Tiberium 7/7 140R +39
-[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 7) 181/300 4 dice 80R 99% 23% for phase 8
-[X] Intensification of Green Zone Harvesting (Stage 5&6) 63/200 2 dice 30R 91%
-[X] Harvesting Tendril Development (New) 0/40 1 die 30R 100%
Orbital 6/6 110R +26
-[X] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 4) 456/765 5 dice 100R 96%
-[X] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 9) 41/85 1 die 10R 98%
Services 2/5 40R +27
-[X] Neural Interfaced Operating Theaters (New) 0/160 2 dice 40R 60%
Military 8/8+4 free+1 admin assitance 265R +26
-[X] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 1) 0/350 3 dice 60R 2%
-[X] Apollo Wingmen Drones (New) 0/210 3 dice 60R 75%
-[X] Escort Carrier Shipyards (New York) 0/240 3 dice 60R 54%
-[X] Shark Class Frigate Shipyards (Quonset Point) 0/300 3 dice 60R 14%
-[X] Neural Interface System Refits (Talons) 83/105 1 admin assistance 25R 94%
Bureau 4/4 +24
-[X] Administrative Assistance (Neural Interface) 2 die auto
-[X] Security Reviews (Agri) 2+1 dice 100%
Free 7/7
3 HI, 4 Mil

965/935 (+30 reserve)
Okay so last night I looked at this plan and was like wtf. Now I am looking at it with fresh new eyes and...well I will go down step by step.

Infra: The plan does Fortress towns and Rails...but it only completes one phase of both. Meaning that all this plan will most likely end up doing is completing the forts and rails we were already building rather than build more to support the troops. The other plans at least attempt to two phases of each. The Tick Dev is acceptable(though not idea) as it is something that is stated to help with building in the future. However the rest of the infra portion is insufficient to support our offensives.

HI: This portion of the plan is also something that tries to help in the war effort. It does focus on power and cap goods but gets bogged down in developments. In the case of Isolinear it's acceptable as Isolinear is cap goods and cap goods help us but the CBL laser development is unnecessary as all these developments won't be funded by us.

Agri: I have no complaints except for the security reviews. I find that those are unnecessary right now but that is a small complaint

LCI: Again no complaints but Bergen could be done properly at a later time rather than half hearted attempts it right now

Orbital: It's fine. I have no real complaints

Tiberium: Acceptable though again dev is unnecessary here

Sevices: the problem here is that there is a decent chance that this health option fails and we go into the negatives on health. That is not something that I find acceptable. I fully expect more refugees to come next turn and I don't like the plan betting on health

Military: This plan's military portion is just not good. The SADNs are unnecessary. I know it was stated that it could be useful for defending Chicago and so on but the plan fails to properly focus on that. A 2% chance of completion means that the plan will continue to be an investment next turn. The plan's ship builds have a decent chance of no completing meaning that Karachi 2061 may as well be doomed(I am not supporting of that but it bears noting). The only high point of this part is Wingman completion at 75%.

TLDR: The plan is dev heavy, insufficiently supports the troops in regards to it's infra investments and has a military investment that's kinda all over the place.
 
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