Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

[karloss99]

Alright, final one from me today.

The fact that Nod gets called an insurrection or a terrorist group or a cult can cause the mistake to presume that they are at a lower or similar technological capability as GDI.
It couldn't be more wrong.

Yes, considerable parts of Nod's arsenal is around the same level of tech as GDI standard. But the actual elite parts of it blow anything GDI has out of the water.
The real difference is that while any tech GDI has is generally studied and implemented in as many fields as it is usable in, Nod has some 'super-unit' that uses game changing tech, and that is it for a long time.

Nod has had working Mind-Machine Interface since Second Tib war. GDI is only now starting on that.
Nod has had better Tib refining... forever. They are simply better at it, period.
They have in many ways more advanced weapon tech. Infantry-scale lasers, anyone?
Their stealth-tech is something that has GDI endlessly chase after counters.
They had reaction-less engines long before GDI knew what a G-drive even is.

Bottom line? Nod has benefited from Kane and Tacitus so that, combined with their general disregard for many long-term dangers of Tiberium tech, they are the most technologically advanced group on the planet.

And they are still resorting to guerrilla warfare to not get crushed under the weight of GDI's industrial might.

 

[Crazycryodude]

The war will be a lot longer and more painful due to the failure of Operation Steel Vanguard.

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The objective wasn't to conquer the world in three months the objective was to kick things off with a surprise GDI offensive into NOD territory instead of the usual Act 1 arc that goes exactly opposite. Strategically it was a massive success, the war's been started on GDI terms in NOD territory when last turn we were due to get sucker punched in an alley and mugged for a dozen points each of logistics, power, and cap goods production. We've got multiple salients going all the way to the Red Zones for the first time.... ever, and the strategic picture heavily favors the GDI. We've got more ability to sustain a global war than them, we've got more reserves than them, and now we've even got more territory (assuming we can hold our fresh Green). Operationally maybe it wasn't the smashing success where we effortlessly conquer an entire continent that it could have been, but despite bad rolls on the tactical/operational level I think that strategically it did exactly what it was supposed to.

It's also important to remember that Steel Vanguard isn't actually over, it's probably going to be another 1-2 turns at least before we really bog down. Later waves should be hitting less prepared territory defended by more exhausted NOD troops, hopefully with dice rolls more in GDI's favor to boot.

 

[Lightwhispers]

Sooooo can we reverse engineer the captured flying fortress?

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That is presumably the plan, although anything similar we build will be more like the Kodiak than this (which is pretty much the Basilisk from TibTwilight.) We'll be taking the technologies from it, combining them with our own, and making something we're better able to use, build, and maintain.

I have the opposite opinion. It seems to me that Operation Steel Vanguard was a massive failure. The massed Nod forces successfully slowed down GDI forces while inflicting heavy blows against GDI and retreated largely intact. Nod has successfully evacuated their factories and populations away from the front and has already priced in their losses. We were unable to inflict meaningful losses with our surprise attack against Nod or and allowed Nod to escape intact with the exception of Gideon's North American forces. All that GDI gained in its offensive are tiberium infested wastelands and getting old, sick, weak, infirm, and generally unproductive refugees that will burden the GDI bureaucracy while Nod can strike back later with largely intact forces against our stretched-out forces. Nod has largely only lost things and territories it has already written off. The war will be a lot longer and more painful due to the failure of Operation Steel Vanguard. At least most of the opening rounds of fighting occurred in the Yellow Zones for once.

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It all depends on your expectations. As mentioned, Steel Vanguard was meant to be a pre-emption of NOD's planned offensive, so that the fighting would happen in Yellow Zones, rather than Green and Blue. That was one of the main strategic goals, which was mostly achieved. We also prevented NOD from doing significant damage to our industry or infrastructure. As for NOD losses: we don't know that. In-quest, because they're good at concealing both their reserves and their losses. Out-of-quest, it's a deliberate choice because of those in-quest reasons.

So, yes, the news is somewhat disappointing, which is intended. Because the Fog of War is a thing.

 

[dptullos]

I have the opposite opinion. It seems to me that Operation Steel Vanguard was a massive failure. The massed Nod forces successfully slowed down GDI forces while inflicting heavy blows against GDI and retreated largely intact. Nod has successfully evacuated their factories and populations away from the front and has already priced in their losses. We were unable to inflict meaningful losses with our surprise attack against Nod or and allowed Nod to escape intact with the exception of Gideon's North American forces. All that GDI gained in its offensive are tiberium infested wastelands and getting old, sick, weak, infirm, and generally unproductive refugees that will burden the GDI bureaucracy while Nod can strike back later with largely intact forces against our stretched-out forces. Nod has largely only lost things and territories it has already written off. The war will be a lot longer and more painful due to the failure of Operation Steel Vanguard. At least most of the opening rounds of fighting occurred in the Yellow Zones for once.

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This is not correct.

Nod did not declare "Not one step backwards!" and fight conventional battles against GDI armored columns. Except for Gideon, and he's an idiot. I doubt anyone expected Stahl to order a banzai charge against the Initiative. Nod delayed our advance, they retreated, and they avoided fighting on our terms. That's their doctrine.

Stahl won a propaganda victory, inflicted serious casualties, and retreated. Krukov also did major damage, but he lost a battleship and a significant part of his air force in the process. Gideon threw away his remaining armor and his air force in desperate, doomed offenses against Chicago, and a major part of the Middle Eastern Brotherhood abandoned the war.

Looking at the list of Brotherhood warlords:

Gideon is actively throwing away trained soldiers and military equipment.

Stahl is doing a great job, but we don't actually need to beat him. If GDI has sense, they'll tell Escoffier to play defense and avoid taking unnecessary risks.

Bintang is unknown.

Krukov, like Gideon, launched a major offensive. His attack was somewhat successful, but he accepted heavy losses even as he inflicted them.

Mehretu is now fighting the Caravanserai, with the Ten Rings supporting him. I doubt this will be good for morale.

Reynaldo faced a strategic situation so hopeless that he ran to Kane for help. I doubt Nod's Western European branch will manage much beyond terrorist attacks and a few raids.

The Caravanserai are now at war with Mehretu.

Yao Qinglian is unknown.

al-Isfahani is unknown.

India remains unknown.

Out of ten listed Nod factions, one left the Brotherhood in all but name, one ran to Kane because his strategic position is indescribably bad, one couldn't be doing a worse job if he was receiving orders from the Philadelphia, and two are distracted by a war with the Caravanserai. There is precisely one Nod warlord who is unequivocally winning, and Stahl is in a terrible position to launch a major offensive.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Speaking of Karachi...

I distinctly remember it being mentioned that it would result in a veritable flood of refugees coming our way.
Refugees that would need housing and food, and medicine, and employment, and education, and...

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Yeah. This is one reason I'd rather get the fourth phase of Blue Zone Arcologies out of the way before the Karachi Sprint, because I think we're gonna need to crash-build apartments just to house a jillion refugees after and during the Sprint.

People going on about the attempt to destroy Chicago and how that was a red line that means we should respond in kind:

You guys do realize that Chicago is a Planned City that is not in anyway a major settlement. Its more or less a fortress town writ large with a massive refinery complex built into it.

Its population is probably a few tens of thousands at most, and most of them military garrison and technical staff keeping the abatement and refining of Tiberium going.

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Yeah. Chicago was about as close to a "clean" military/industrial target as Gideon could have possibly chosen, if he wanted to hit something important. We're mostly just salty because he used tiberium on it and we're afraid it'll catch on.

Like, we deliberately built entire global-scale housing projects to make sure our citizens weren't having to live in places like that.

Thank you, that detail helps.

It would be nice to capture/raid a factory with commandos at some point (would have to find one first, of course) and see if the automation is reverse engineerable. Or lure away some of the people who worked on it.

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We've actually gotten a few bits of Nod industrial tech; the best stuff still eludes us but if we keep thwacking away at the tech gacha we might see it.

Sooooo can we reverse engineer the captured flying fortress?

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The answer may be "yes" or "no," but I'm quite sure GDI's engineering establishment is going to be very excited about trying.

 

[Crazycryodude]

We've actually gotten a few bits of Nod industrial tech; the best stuff still eludes us but if we keep thwacking away at the tech gacha we might see it.

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I think we've managed to roll just about every single form of exciting new war crime in the NOD table at this point, the dice sure love giving us even more ways to burn people alive or produce terrifying chemical weapons instead of better refining tech. Eventually they will have no choice but to finally start spitting out economic techs if only because all the military ones already got rolled, at least.

 

[Phrux]

Another idea: think Gana are hardened enough to resist emp grenades?

 

[Daedwartin]

As an another point for the 'Why doesn't GDI just Ion Cannon all of Nod's stuff'...

We kinda do.

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Its always important to remember that the tutorial mission for Tib 3? Its intel finding a nondescript and probably minor Nod base out in Carolina, sending the GDI protag to go clear it out, and is capped off by authorizing the Commander to just Ion Cannon the base away.

This is implied to have been SOP. Potential Nod Base Identified? Send in force to confirm. If Small intial force cant wipe out by themselves, Level it with Ion Cannon. Still there? Fire and Reload.

Its why the Third War Started with Nod attacking a major control center for the network. Kane didn't want GDI ruining his opening moves by just Ion Cannoning the whole parade. Declaring his eternal love for the Space Steelers was just an added bonus.

As for our operation....Sorry, Nod, You dont have game storywriters providing you narrative initiative this time. We actually have a say this time.

 

[Vocalend]

Objective-wise, Steel Vanguard did as described. Prevent the GDI from receiving the first hits from a synchronized Brotherhood offensive.

Subjectively, everything still stung like fuck because while the current crop military leaders of GDI grew up with the successes of Deep Raids like that in Alexandria, they also didn't expect some of the casualties figures and the rabbits the Brotherhood is pulling out of their hats. Confidence is likely to go down a level for the Ground Forces as they realize 'Ah shit, Nod still got hands' but for now, things are still set for any of the Warlords to tap out of the Regency War and let the Initiative reassign troops to other fronts.

If GDI has sense, they'll tell Escoffier to play defense and avoid taking unnecessary risks.

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The problem is that a good chunk of the GDI constituents - particularly the SAmerican Parliamentarians - are taken in by Stahl's brazen attack. Escoffier is essentially being prodded to commit to an offensive even though Stahl keeps resetting the operational tempo. The situation might change for the next Quarter but even then, it is likely that Stahl have another trick planned.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I think we've managed to roll just about every single form of exciting new war crime in the NOD table at this point, the dice sure love giving us even more ways to burn people alive or produce terrifying chemical weapons instead of better refining tech.

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To be fair, with the Corruptor we told the dice "SCREW YOU, I'M MAKING THIS AN ECON TECH ANYWAY!"

It's also important to remember that Steel Vanguard isn't actually over, it's probably going to be another 1-2 turns at least before we really bog down. Later waves should be hitting less prepared territory defended by more exhausted NOD troops, hopefully with dice rolls more in GDI's favor to boot.

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My real worry is that the Indian Nod warlord will figure out a way to weaponize pure elemental salt... and pass it on to Krukov and Giddyboy.

Then we're well and properly fucked.

 

[IndustrialVice2]

I have the opposite opinion. It seems to me that Operation Steel Vanguard was a massive failure. The massed Nod forces successfully slowed down GDI forces while inflicting heavy blows against GDI and retreated largely intact. Nod has successfully evacuated their factories and populations away from the front and has already priced in their losses. We were unable to inflict meaningful losses with our surprise attack against Nod or and allowed Nod to escape intact with the exception of Gideon's North American forces. All that GDI gained in its offensive are tiberium infested wastelands and getting old, sick, weak, infirm, and generally unproductive refugees that will burden the GDI bureaucracy while Nod can strike back later with largely intact forces against our stretched-out forces. Nod has largely only lost things and territories it has already written off. The war will be a lot longer and more painful due to the failure of Operation Steel Vanguard. At least most of the opening rounds of fighting occurred in the Yellow Zones for once.

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In addition to what's been posted upthread, you need to look at the broader strategic picture, where it's pretty clear that Nod's international logistics are about to get absolutely boned. We've managed to cut off multiple land routes that the warlords use to trade supplies and tech between each other, forcing them to rely far more heavily on the Falak submarine freighters . . . At a time when we're about to start rolling out a new generation of subhunters. Add in the fact that moving factories is not free and the complications added by Auroras being effectively untouchable and able to strike at will across Nod territory, and their logistical situation is going down the tubes at the start of a major conflict.

 

[Nottheunmaker]

People going on about the attempt to destroy Chicago and how that was a red line that means we should respond in kind:

You guys do realize that Chicago is a Planned City that is not in anyway a major settlement. Its more or less a fortress town writ large with a massive refinery complex built into it.

Its population is probably a few tens of thousands at most, and most of them military garrison and technical staff keeping the abatement and refining of Tiberium going.

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I don't remember anyone saying to respond in kind, and I'm the one most upset about the planned strike on Chicago because it's personal to me. Even I don't want to Ion Cannon his territory into slag, appealing as the idea is.

What I want is a head, specifically Gideon's, on a Pike, facing towards the city he tried to kill so he dead eyes are forced to watch it grow.

I'd say it would present a serious problem for our Plan goals (particularly the RpT target) and a serious problem for our Housing/refugee situation if that turns out to be difficult. I'd be more comfortable committing to Chicago Phase 4 but without necessarily

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Workable. I'll keep it in mind.

Another idea: think Gana are hardened enough to resist emp grenades?

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I think if their laser's don't work, they still have their Tiberium infused teeth. They have a lot of teeth and aren't afraid to use them.

 

[Derpmind]

To be fair, with the Corruptor we told the dice "SCREW YOU, I'M MAKING THIS AN ECON TECH ANYWAY!"

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That was a Scrin tech, not a NOD tech. And there's no dice rolled to determine what a tech gets used for. It's all pre-determined by Ithillid.

 

[Simon_Jester]

That was a Scrin tech, not a NOD tech. And there's no dice rolled to determine what a tech gets used for. It's all pre-determined by Ithillid.

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Yeah, it's just that if the trope is "dice give us all the horrifying war crime weaponry," that Corrupter thing represents an amusing reversal.

When life gives you tiberium-infused lemons, make wonderful T-Glass lemonade pitchers.

I think if their laser's don't work, they still have their Tiberium infused teeth. They have a lot of teeth and aren't afraid to use them.

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The thing is, they're cyborgs, so it's at least conceivable that EMP systems could leave them blind, immobile, or at least incapable of receiving orders from whoever's controlling them.

 

[dptullos]

Yeah. Chicago was about as close to a "clean" military/industrial target as Gideon could have possibly chosen, if he wanted to hit something important. We're mostly just salty because he used tiberium on it and we're afraid it'll catch on.

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Using tiberium weapons to attack an abatement center which is restricting the spread of tiberium...

I've repeatedly argued for the value of mercy as a weapon of war, but in moral terms it wouldn't be hard to argue for mass executions of Nod officers based on their support for the Tiberium cult. Even if Nod isn't actively murdering civilians, their ongoing attempts to halt abatement have passively killed billions.

The Caravanserai's cooperation with us has saved innumerable lives. The failure of other Nod warlords to copy their example is an active and ongoing crime against peace, and in a just world it would be punished. Stahl even sent us his refugees, but he still continues to war against a nation which is actively feeding and housing the people of the Yellow Zones.

The problem is that a good chunk of the GDI constituents - particularly the SAmerican Parliamentarians - are taken in by Stahl's brazen attack. Escoffier is essentially being prodded to commit to an offensive even though Stahl keeps resetting the operational tempo. The situation might change for the next Quarter but even then, it is likely that Stahl have another trick planned.

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I think it's very likely that Stahl will continue to outmaneuver us in South America. He has proven yet again to be the best of Nod's Warlords. However, I don't think Escoffier is reckless enough to commit his forces to an offensive without securing a line of retreat. If Stahl defeats him again and drives him back to the Blue Zone, that will be a painful defeat, but it will not be decisive.

The South American Blue Zone is small and defensible. As long as it isn't overrun, Stahl's victories won't be crippling to GDI. Our victories against Gideon, on the other hand, are already on the verge of cutting the American South off from the rest of his territory.

 

[Dheer]

The thing is, they're cyborgs, so it's at least conceivable that EMP systems could leave them blind, immobile, or at least incapable of receiving orders from whoever's controlling them.

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Eh... Not exactly, while they could be vulnerable to EMP like the Cyborgs in tiberium Sun Campaign, they could also be not vulnerable to EMP like the Marked of Kane Cyborgs which are unaffected by EMP at all, no disruptions towards communication or functioning occur with those units in the Campaign . So It depends if the Cybernetics are the equal with the Tib 2 Cyborgs or the equal to the Marked of Kane Cyborgs, although if it is better than Tib 2 but worse than Marked of Kane, then unsure how EMP effects them.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Using tiberium weapons to attack an abatement center which is restricting the spread of tiberium...

I've repeatedly argued for the value of mercy as a weapon of war, but in moral terms it wouldn't be hard to argue for mass executions of Nod officers based on their support for the Tiberium cult. Even if Nod isn't actively murdering civilians, their ongoing attempts to halt abatement have passively killed billions.

The Caravanserai's cooperation with us has saved innumerable lives. The failure of other Nod warlords to copy their example is an active and ongoing crime against peace, and in a just world it would be punished. Stahl even sent us his refugees, but he still continues to war against a nation which is actively feeding and housing the people of the Yellow Zones.

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I don't disagree with the logic.

At the same time, we run on a tiberium economy as much as Nod does. Anyone who's making a serious attempt to fight us has to at least consider the wisdom of wrecking one of our biggest centralized tiberium processing nodes. GDI's a big, decentralized target with only a few really critical industrial targets that do something we don't have good backups for elsewhere.

And about the only one of such target that is conceivably in Gideon's reach, given the present condition of his forces, is Chicago.

So yes, it's a big operation in our effort to reclaim the Earth from tiberium and prevent human extinction. It is also one of the biggest and most crucial nodes in our entire war economy, a war economy that we are currently using to beat him to death with.

So it's hard for me to work up the same level of indignation at a strategic WMD attack on Chicago that I would about, say, a similar strategic WMD attack on a more heavily populated city with actually meaningful numbers of civilians and that wasn't the site of roughly 10% of our global tiberium processing infrastructure.

Eh... Not exactly, while they could be vulnerable to EMP like the Cyborgs in tiberium Sun Campaign, they could also be not vulnerable to EMP like the Marked of Kane Cyborgs which are unaffected by EMP at all, no disruptions towards communication or functioning occur with those units in the Campaign . So It depends if the Cybernetics are the equal with the Tib 2 Cyborgs or the equal to the Marked of Kane Cyborgs, although if it is better than Tib 2 but worse than Marked of Kane, then unsure how EMP effects them.

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Well, it's certainly worth a little fuck-around-and-find-out.

 

[DecaffeinatedOwl]

First wave covers the main truce sites already, as it happens.

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But just the truce sites. I mean cover the entirety of the terrority of the Caravansarai, and any other neutral states.

While we might not get it this turn, we're probably gonna find time soon; the only thing likely to stop us from doing it is the urge to get SADN coverage up and the wingman drone production lines live.

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And the Navy's...everything?

 

[KleverKil'Vanya]

So your telling me NOD has more people and is a peer power... while hiding in the RED ZONES since we own the BLUE ZONES, right guess I'll just ignore the entire idea of logistics and production to assume NOD just magics it's shit out of prayers to Kane and Tib.

 

[Hazard]

Nod hides in the Yellow Zones, which are fairly habitable.

 

[dptullos]

So your telling me NOD has more people and is a peer power... while hiding in the RED ZONES since we own the BLUE ZONES, right guess I'll just ignore the entire idea of logistics and production to assume NOD just magics it's shit out of prayers to Kane and Tib.

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There are precisely zero science fiction stories set in a different world that stand up to detailed, logical analysis. Every story has plot holes.

If you enjoy the narrative, you suspend disbelief. If you don't enjoy the narrative, then there's no point in reading it.

From a Watsonian perspective, Nod has partial control of the Yellow Zones and uses the population and industry living there to fuel their war machine. From a Doylistic perspective, Nod needs to be a peer power for the sake of the narrative, so Nod is a peer power.

 

[aceraptor]

So your telling me NOD has more people and is a peer power... while hiding in the RED ZONES since we own the BLUE ZONES, right guess I'll just ignore the entire idea of logistics and production to assume NOD just magics it's shit out of prayers to Kane and Tib.

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...No, you are reading it wrong. NOD has the Yellow Zones. Yellow Zones are 24% of the planet's land area currently. Blue Zones are 19%. Neither side has much in Red Zones.

Yellow Zone still has the bulk of human population despite GDI's expansion of the Blue Zone and establishment of Green Zones. Yellow Zones are under NOD's nominal control, there are no other organized authority other than the NOD warlords there since the collapse of national governments.

 

[Shard of Victory]

I kinda hate how NOD is peer opponent and intargetable insurgency at the same time. How their tech can be made in garage but they also have massive super automated factories. How they don't need vast educational system to pull tech out of ass. How they are dispersed and harried constantly yet can concentrate massive armies and fleets at will and we can't see them until they hit us. How we control the orbit and yet completly blind to half of the world. How...

 

[Oshha]

How they don't need vast educational system to pull tech out of ass.

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Kane. I'm pretty sure that Nod gets to cheat because Kane helps them out by giving them high-level tech.

How we control the orbit and yet completly blind to half of the world. How...

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This one I am pretty sure is due to a mixture of ion storms and Nod stealth tech.

 

[Daedwartin]

I kinda hate how NOD is peer opponent and intargetable insurgency at the same time. How their tech can be made in garage but they also have massive super automated factories. How they don't need vast educational system to pull tech out of ass. How they are dispersed and harried constantly yet can concentrate massive armies and fleets at will and we can't see them until they hit us. How we control the orbit and yet completly blind to half of the world. How...

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This is because in all reality, theres not so much one Nod, but 2.

You have the original Nod thats been around since the first war. These are the insurgents.

Then you have Kane's favorites. And Kane? Kane has access to shit well beyond ours because he isnt from around town.

In fact, if Kane didnt exist, we really just be fighting several disconnected warlords of varying means and capacities instead of global wars every so often.