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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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kingreaper said:
Heidi is far too competent a liar to lie about the "pettiest details of her past". She'll have been entirely honest about many things if only because it's far easier to remember a story from your childhood and then replace the names of your parents than it is to remember the story you made up six months ago that never actually happened.

And beyond that - why would she want to keep secrets that she doesn't have to from the man who will be her partner for the next 10+ years?

She's not a compulsive liar. I've known compulsive liars, they'd make terrible con artists because they lie about everything and therefore can't keep their story straight.
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She'd have to lie and mislead about almost everything though, because she's pretending to be born in a different province, in a different social class, and (apparently) in a different century.
She probably keeps things vaguely similar to real events just to that she won't get blindsided by a year-old lie brought back to catch her, but I expect all the particulars and settings to change, and a great deal of things to go unmentioned and/or to be "generic lies" to better fit her cover.
 
BurnNote said:
Pretty much, that's how I voted too. I think we should also bring up clergy as a possible option, but I can understand why people don't.
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Clergy seems an odd thing for Mathilde to bring up.

She's very happy with being a wizard and whilst she has occasionally found some Grey Order tasks unpleasant Mathilde is generally more than happy with both Uglu and the Grey Order to the extent that I very much doubt she'd even think about picking another Wind if that was somehow possible.


'Wizard yes, let Eike choose what type but before that here's 10 reasons why Uglu is best' seems just very IC for Mathilde.

Clergy just doesn't; she's seen terrible priests and she's deepened her relationship with Ranald without being a priest.
 
Looking at it through the lens of being a Ranaldian, the reason I give Heidi side-eyes and think she's sus isn't the Deceiver or Night Prowler aspects of her personality, it's the Gambler.

Heidi is like that friend who you know and trust to have your back, it's just their methods which might sometimes be cause for worry, because you can't be sure they aren't doing something that they think is a great idea, not just for them but everyone! Except then it goes tits up and suddenly you've got the cops called on you at three in the morning and they're too drunk to help, and no you aren't going to forget about that even if it was just 'one time', you were impersonating a goddamn vampire for Ranald's sake, I don't care if it turned out fine!

That, dialled up to Empress levels.

I'm not worried about her screwing us or the Empire over, not only because it is in her and Ranald's best interests which her position but also because another aspect of Ranald is Protector, and Heidi I believe shares these values, so I honestly don't think she would do it anyway. Deliberately. She wouldn't screw over us or the Empire deliberately, but I'd still like to keep an eye out in case of exploding cons, because although she and Ranald are good enough I don't think it's likely, on the other side of the table is Tzeentch. Even if she were calmer of an Empress it's still worth keeping an eye on her, and Heidi as good as she is at the game still has less caution than most I think, which means if it does explode the boom is similarly gonna be a bit bigger than most.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
Clergy seems an odd thing for Mathilde to bring up.

She's very happy with being a wizard and whilst she has occasionally found some Grey Order tasks unpleasant Mathilde is generally more than happy with both Uglu and the Grey Order to the extent that I very much doubt she'd even think about picking another Wind if that was somehow possible.


'Wizard yes, let Eike choose what type but before that here's 10 reasons why Uglu is best' seems just very IC for Mathilde.

Clergy just doesn't; she's seen terrible priests and she's deepened her relationship with Ranald without being a priest.
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She's also seen priests she greatly respects (Kasimir, Gunnars, Heidi, Heidecker and Wolf, Kragg, etc). More than that, I disagree that she's deepened her relationship without being a priest. She's deepened her relationship to the point of being a priest, just not a spellcasting priest. She's sanctified shrines, made sacrifices, led festivities, got a divine artifact, tried to convert people, all sorts of priestly activity. Hell, she was offered the position of High Priest. She's not an ordained priest, but this is Ranald so that matters little. Putting clergy out there as an option is absolutely in character.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Thanks for correcting me, since it enabled me to find the chapter in question.
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Thanks for finding and sharing it! That poor guy's story is really a treat to read.

Back to the argument at hand, we have this:
BoneyM said:
But the sufficiently paranoid wizard might take the question as a veiled but very real jab at Magister Weber, who is bound by the Articles of Imperial Magic and the oaths of the Grey Order. A warning shot to say that Ostermark is coming downriver, and if the EIC stands in their way, to a certain point of view that could be seen as a Grey Wizard interfering with the legitimate business of an Elector Count for their own personal profit. Which is the sort of thing that gets the Bursar very tetchy indeed.
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My understanding then is that for a less intimidating and less geographically distant Grey Wizard that is actually in the thick of EIC negotiations there are plenty of potential landmines they have to pay attention to, especially if they aren't as good at creating an intimidating aura as Mathilde and/or their negotiating opponent isn't quite as willing to helpfully read between the lines due to shitting themselves.
Valarauko said:
The Greys can totally teach stewardship. Look at the bursar. I'd almost make the case that Wilhelmine might be a better master than us for Eike. The Grey College is a secret police agency, it has to have some rudiments of forensic accounting or at least "follow the money". And it's not like they can't bring in specialist instructors, especially for the heir to a large multinational company they're eager to sink their hooks into.
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The Bursar is the Bursar because she is a Stewardship specialist. Those skills of hers aren't in the general curriculum. Just think back at what Mathilde used to know about economics. Specifically, how she barely knew how money even works or what debt is beyond money owed.
Shard said:
I dont see what's wrong with Heidi that has people riled up about her. Anymore than we should hate Mathilde for kidnapping people or getting them to a party where they get kidnapped. Or promising mercy before going back on it a few seconds after, etc.
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My memory fails me. What party?
Godwinson said:
I'm not particularly sure why people seem to give that much of a fuck about doing an end run around stupid blood-nobility quotients. The con as presented gave her all of the actual benefits that being that heiress would have given her (and thus her husband). Considering that these aristocrats are expressly marrying for political aims, with any potential personal relationships being developed after the fact, you're very much applying relationship standards that don't apply.
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What was the actual political benefit of marrying her? Sure, being a young, intelligent, sociable and fertile member in good standing of a former EC family makes her eligible, but said family is dead as a doornail and she had no land or political allies of note to add to the family, as far as the Emperor knew. The only thing I can think of is that her royal consort skills (and I don't mean just the domestic ones) were super impressive and that a no strings attached partner without divided loyalty (if only he knew).
 
BurnNote said:
She's also seen priests she greatly respects (Kasimir, Gunnars, Heidi, Heidecker and Wolf, Kragg, etc). More than that, I disagree that she's deepened her relationship without being a priest. She's deepened her relationship to the point of being a priest, just not a spellcasting priest. She's sanctified shrines, made sacrifices, led festivities, got a divine artifact, tried to convert people, all sorts of priestly activity. Hell, she was offered the position of High Priest. She's not an ordained priest, but this is Ranald so that matters little. Putting clergy out there as an option is absolutely in character.
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Mathilde is not just a priest. She's Ranald's chosen.
 
Rafin said:
Thanks for finding and sharing it! That poor guy's story is really a treat to read.

Back to the argument at hand, we have this:

My understanding then is that for a less intimidating and less geographically distant Grey Wizard that is actually in the thick of EIC negotiations there are plenty of potential landmines they have to pay attention to, especially if they aren't as good at creating an intimidating aura as Mathilde and/or their negotiating opponent isn't quite as willing to helpfully read between the lines due to shitting themselves.

The Bursar is the Bursar because she is a Stewardship specialist. Those skills of hers aren't in the general curriculum. Just think back at what Mathilde used to know about economics. Specifically, how she barely knew how money even works or what debt is beyond money owed.

My memory fails me. What party?

What was the actual political benefit of marrying her? Sure, being a young, intelligent, sociable and fertile member in good standing of a former EC family makes her eligible, but said family is dead as a doornail and she had no land or political allies of note to add to the family, as far as the Emperor knew. The only thing I can think of is that her royal consort skills (and I don't mean just the domestic ones) were super impressive and that a no strings attached partner without divided loyalty (if only he knew).
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My best guess is that demonstrating good integrity by declining to push her claim to Stirland against a fresh-to-the-job Roswita was seen as particularly admirable and desirable, and marrying her didn't step on any toes.
 
Rafin said:
What was the actual political benefit of marrying her? Sure, being a young, intelligent, sociable and fertile member in good standing of a former EC family makes her eligible, but said family is dead as a doornail and she had no land or political allies of note to add to the family, as far as the Emperor knew. The only thing I can think of is that her royal consort skills (and I don't mean just the domestic ones) were super impressive and that a no strings attached partner without divided loyalty (if only he knew).
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BoneyM said:
I 'reveal myself' as the lost scion of the Haupt-Anderssens, and act terribly brave about how the lands of my ancestors are denied to me, and just as certain gullible parties are starting to grumble I reassure all the right people by laying aside my claims to Stirland. And it just so happens there was another throne in need of a bum, and gosh isn't this lady who gave up power for the sake of the Empire just the sort to introduce to dear Luitpold? Everything just happened to turn out just right, not least of all that Luitpold is easy on the eyes and charming when he wants to be."
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As far as I can tell there was no political benefit. And seeing how they were interacting when we first met her as a Heidi it seems to me like Luitpold just genuinely loves her.
 
Rafin said:
What was the actual political benefit of marrying her? Sure, being a young, intelligent, sociable and fertile member in good standing of a former EC family makes her eligible, but said family is dead as a doornail and she had no land or political allies of note to add to the family, as far as the Emperor knew. The only thing I can think of is that her royal consort skills (and I don't mean just the domestic ones) were super impressive and that a no strings attached partner without divided loyalty (if only he knew).
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Probably a compromise candidate—she has no political rivals, no political backers, and no outside obligations, duties or responsibilities. Pretty much any other marriage candidate for the emperor would have strings attached, whether they are (hypothetically) the daughter of an Elector Count, or the niece of a Brettonian duke, or the sister of a merchant prince, they'd all have, you know, divided loyalties. Additionally, choosing any of those could have caused enmity—what if Lutipold had picked someone from Nordland over someone from Middenland in the middle of their rivalry? Heidi doesn't have any of those complications; in fact, the only thing she brought to the marriage was her pretty face and her functioning uterus—a completely safe person for the Emperor to marry and produce heirs with.

She's not going to spy on the emperor, she's not going to put family into positions of power, she's not going to steal from him, not going to create feuds or spark rivalries, she's just going to be the mother of his children.

The fact that she's smart, able to advise him on political and personal matters, and they actually seem to like each other beyond their duties as husband and wife is just a pleasant bonus.
 
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Rafin said:
What was the actual political benefit of marrying her? Sure, being a young, intelligent, sociable and fertile member in good standing of a former EC family makes her eligible, but said family is dead as a doornail and she had no land or political allies of note to add to the family, as far as the Emperor knew.
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He has to marry someone, and he can't marry a non-noble. Someone with literally no political enemies is a boon in and of themself.

The part she was playing is rather like Anton as Chancellor. The political benefit is that she's unimportant but acceptable.
 
BurnNote said:
She's deepened her relationship to the point of being a priest, just not a spellcasting priest. She's sanctified shrines, made sacrifices, led festivities, got a divine artifact, tried to convert people, all sorts of priestly activity. Hell, she was offered the position of High Priest. She's not an ordained priest, but this is Ranald so that matters little.
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Yes, but I don't think the part that would be out of her experience is "closeness to a diety", it's "part of a formal clergy", which she doesn't have any experience with. She doesn't know what the training and lifestyle entails.
 
Omegahugger said:
Come on, she needs this! How can we expect her to bring life to the valley if she doesn't bring life to the things that already lost it?
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This sounds like Nurgle shit.

Omegahugger, I can understand the eternal desire to practice UNFATHOMABLE NECROMANTIC POWEEEEEERRRRRRRR, UNLIMITED POWEEEEEEEER!!!!!, but I draw the line at Plague Babies.
 
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The3rdCorinthian said:
This sounds like Nurgle shit.

Omegahugger, I can understand the eternal desire to practice UNFATHOMABLE NECROMANTIC POWEEEEEERRRRRRRR, UNLIMITED POWEEEEEEEER!!!!!, but I draw the line a Plague Babies.
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Nurgle doesn't bring life to those that lost it, he keeps those barely clinging on to life from losing their mortal husks.

One is prevention, the other is reclamation. While both are commendable, only one of them can bring Abel backcan restore life to the dead plants and fungi of the valley.

Also I'll have you know that Beasts of Nurgle are absolutely baby and deserve all the hugs they can get.
 
LockedMind said:
I suppose Russian is a Dark Tongue then, since double negative resolves to single negative here?
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...That sounds simultaneously way simpler and also confusing
Omegahugger said:
Nurgle doesn't bring life to those that lost it, he keeps those barely clinging on to life from losing their mortal husks.

One is prevention, the other is reclamation. While both are commendable, only one of them can bring Abel backcan restore life to the dead plants and fungi of the valley.

Also I'll have you know that Beasts of Nurgle are absolutely baby and deserve all the hugs they can get.
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...That sounds simultaneously way simpler and also confusing.
 
Mopman43 said:
Yes, but I don't think the part that would be out of her experience is "closeness to a diety", it's "part of a formal clergy", which she doesn't have any experience with. She doesn't know what the training and lifestyle entails.
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Sure, but that's going to be different for different temples (Eike has Shallya, and we've had WOG recently that her cult is really dispersed and without strong hierarchy), and the experience of being part of another college is going to be quite different from the greys too.
 
[X] Wizard
-[X] Let Eike decide
-[X] The Grey Order
-[X] The Order of Life
[X] Clergy

With the WoG explaining more about Shallya's cult and how it's not as if Eike would be pushed into not doing self-care or something toxic like that, most of my objection to that option is gone.

I still think Grey Order is ideal, but Eike should know that the clergy at least might be an option, even if we're not entirely sure about the mechanics of it all.
 
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