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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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@DragonParadox

To phrase it differently, imagine if our Loremaster book budget (which wasn't in any way limited by throughput or AP) were to be increased from 300 gc and 2 DF to "Yes". Or, more conservatively, multiplied by ten or so. Then fast forward a handful of years. That's how the Library would look without our involvement.

Prioritization as head librarian only matters if we start hunting for truly rare books that go beyond the generic Esoteric/Antiquarian level and do stuff like find ways to get people who don't care about money or Dwarf Favor to allow us copy access to their precious babies/information monopoly/secret manuscripts.
 
...how many half-actions are eating up Mathilde's time right now, anyway? Isn't it just the branch college?
 
Ambit said:
...how many half-actions are eating up Mathilde's time right now, anyway? Isn't it just the branch college?
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Also the EIC. Before the expedition it was Max, Johann, the EIC and the Duckling Club. I expect all Wizard related ones to be automatically folded into the branch college or dropped.

That said, BoneyM already said that he'll rework how AP expenditure for organizations and employees works in the specific.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well yes and so is building a College Branch and doing a Waystone project, all these will need time, but all of them will start out with unique and valuable resources just the same.
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Waystone project is our job and main focus, and it is going to take long time to complete, not get started, branch college is mostly about setting up room and recruiting some wizards/dwarves to join it (and work on waystone project).
Library is lot longer term project.

And i still remain curious about what kind of benefit are you expecting from these books, because so far they are mostly just minor bonus to specific rolls, and we are capable of getting that from just throwin money at things already.
What unique resource are you expecting from the library time investment?
 
Rafin said:
@DragonParadox

To phrase it differently, imagine if our Loremaster book budget (which wasn't in any way limited by throughput or AP) were to be increased from 300 gc and 2 DF to "Yes". Or, more conservatively, multiplied by ten or so. Then fast forward a handful of years. That's how the Library would look without our involvement.

Prioritization as head librarian only matters if we start hunting for truly rare books that go beyond the generic Esoteric/Antiquarian level and do stuff like find ways to get people who don't care about money or Dwarf Favor to allow us copy access to their precious babies/information monopoly/secret manuscripts.
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Except is is not just that, a library is an institution, not large sack of favors and a lot of those books will be in the hands of scholars who will want to copy our own tomes

Valmond said:
Waystone project is our job and main focus, and it is going to take long time to complete, not get started, branch college is mostly about setting up room and recruiting some wizards/dwarves to join it (and work on waystone project).
Library is lot longer term project.

And i still remain curious about what kind of benefit are you expecting from these books, because so far they are mostly just minor bonus to specific rolls, and we are capable of getting that from just throwin money at things already.
What unique resource are you expecting from the library time investment?
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I contend that the college is a lot more complex than 'here are some chairs and here are some wizards'. It too is and institution with its own needed resources and boons that come with it.
 
DragonParadox said:
I contend that the college is a lot more complex than 'here are some chairs and here are some wizards'. It too is and institution with its own needed resources and boons that come with it.
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The Branch college is very, very tiny compared to what we are planning for the library, and possibly temporary.

What benefits are you expecting from the books? Because if the reason to spend, i don't know, 1AP or so a turn (and i would hope head librarian would use at minimum that much, and would much prefer 2) to run a library so we can get books on demand, what concrete benefit does this provide?
 
Valmond said:
The Branch college is very, very tiny compared to what we are planning for the library, and possibly temporary.

What benefits are you expecting from the books? Because if the reason to spend, i don't know, 1AP or so a turn (and i would hope head librarian would use at minimum that much, and would much prefer 2) to run a library so we can get books on demand, what concrete benefit does this provide?
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  1. I mean it says right in the option that it locks 1/2 AP per turn. It feels more than a bit disingenuous to try to re-frame the conversation around 'well it is at least 1 AP'
  2. As for the benefits I feel like I am repeating myself but OK, I expect the skills of people trained in acquiring and translating the rare books we need that turn and being a wizard almost everything we do is about rare lore in one way or another.
 
I imagine head librarian will be closer to half action (yeah, ninjad, exactly that). It is still too much for very marginal benefit compared to just high level policy.
What gain do we gain from it as opposed to just broadly directing policy to get stuff we would need? Once in a blue moon extremely rare tome maybe, but I imagine any tome would rare would require a separate investment anyway.

Bye bye mastering Branuluhne, bye bye any other time investment which cannot be implemented via branch college or sold as a part of our main job.
 
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DragonParadox said:
  1. I mean it says right in the option that it locks 1/2 AP per turn. It feels more than a bit disingenuous to try to re-frame the conversation around 'well it is at least 1 AP'
  2. As for the benefits I feel like I am repeating myself but OK, I expect the skills of people trained in acquiring and translating the rare books we need that turn and being a wizard almost everything we do is about rare lore in one way or another.
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1. Point, forgot that, seems super light for a head librarian but if thems the rules then thems the rules.

2. Did you read the question? ecause you did not answer the question.
What are you expecting from the books, not library, not translators, not people fetching us some reading materials, the books?
Because i very much doubt we are going to find ourselves in a situation where we suddenly just need a random tome from Tilea.
Sure there might be any number of tomes in Tilea we could use, but the situation where we can go "we need these specific books from Tilea" to advance in the project seems, unlikely, at best, evne more so if we can't just throw some gold at the problem.
We have access to colleges, we will have access to Library of Mourning. I doubt the ability to direct the library to fetch specific books is going to be a stumbling block.
 
Valmond said:
2. Did you read the question? ecause you did not answer the question.
What are you expecting from the books, not library, not translators, not people fetching us some reading materials, the books?
Because i very much doubt we are going to find ourselves in a situation where we suddenly just need a random tome from Tilea.
Sure there might be any number of tomes in Tilea we could use, but the situation where we can go "we need these specific books from Tilea" to advance in the project seems, unlikely, at best, evne more so if we can't just throw some gold at the problem.
We have access to colleges, we will have access to Library of Mourning. I doubt the ability to direct the library to fetch specific books is going to be a stumbling block.
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Answers, hints, places to start looking, the lore of the ages, asking what do you expect from books is like asking what do you expect from the concept of knowledge IMO.
 
DragonParadox said:
This feels a wee bit hyperbolic. I really do not think 1/2 AP locked per turn could possibility do that, and I say that as someone to kind of hates the EIC's half action.
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Depends on what other things will we have to do, but consider that despite picking Windherder more than IRL year ago(idk even when) we are yet to invest a single action into exploring or using it.
Or remember AV saga of decade gathering dust.

I am sure we will get around to Branuluhne eventually, in merely one or two decades, even with Head Librarian.
 
The "concrete benefit" of being head librarian is that we get to constantly see the library feature in the narrative, get constant updates on the state of the library, and have more granular input on steering the library than we would otherwise have.

As an example to help show my perspective, here's two different library votes I could see come up in the future, depending on what we choose.

High Level Policy said:
The time has come to lay out the initial direction for the Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks. Naturally, the institution will work to further all of the aims of its charter, but this initial focus will gain additional priority:

[ ] Preservation
The library will put particular focus on ensuring that knowledge is not lost. This will include preservation runes and the best possible environment for books, as well as building up a book printing process so that older books can be collated and reprinted.

[ ] Acquisition
The library will put particular emphasis on acquiring as many books as possible. This will involve gaining ties with many other institutions to trade knowledge, as well as building up trade networks along the entire Old World.

[ ] Inclusion
The library will put particular emphasis on being open to scholars from anywhere. This will be reflected in the hiring policy, but will also involve funding translation teams to make the libraries content valuable to anyone, from anywhere, and specifically reaching out to more distant locations and inviting scholars and philosophers to visit this grand new library - and to share news of it with their fellows when they return home.
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Head Librarian said:
Construction on the East Wing has continued apace, with a small army of dwarf artisans carefully carving the intricate designs that decorate the hall's ceiling, while others put together shelf after shelf of the finest woods Belegar's gold can buy. What will be the libraries focus for the next six months?

[ ] Contact the Light College
The Light College's collection of rare texts is one of the largest endeavours to preserve knowledge in the Empire - and as it happens, you have a inside connection. Contact Van Horstmann and work towards setting up a cross-library trade - and possibly poach Hostmann for yourself.

[ ] Respond to the Cult of Verena
The Order of Lorekeepers has let you know that they are tentatively, hesitantly, willing to work with Ranald, given the scale of this contribution to knowledge. See if you can ease their fears - the Grey College has ever been an ally of the Verenans.

[ ] Construct the Grey Stacks
As a member of the Grey College, you're well aware of the fact that not all knowledge can be shared, yet all to much of it must still be remembered. Design a new expansion to the library, made as secure as dwarven craftsmanship and runecraft, and your own cunning and enchantment, can manage. A place to securely hold knowledge to dangerous to display and to valuable to destroy - and in the deepest and most hidden part of the Grey Stacks, enshrine the Liber Mortis.
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[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch of Intersectional Research
 
Redshirt Army said:
The "concrete benefit" of being head librarian is that we get to constantly see the library feature in the narrative, get constant updates on the state of the library, and have more granular input on steering the library than we would otherwise have.
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I am absolutely not convinced by the implication that high level policy will leave us blind to state of the library or leave it out of narrative, that's what "nah do it alone i don't care" vote option is for. Difference between Head Librarian and High Level Policy is not that, it's exactly what it says: difference between having an input and insight and keeping tabs on it, and running bureaucracy and doing actual executive decisions befitting a head of organization.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
I am absolutely not convinced by the implication that high level policy will leave us blind to state of the library.
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Depends on what you mean "state of the library". Will we get a box on Mathilde's character sheet that reads "Status of Library: Expanding"? Yeah, probably. Will we actually get, y'know, narrative talking about the library? Only on occasion, I suspect.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Depends on what you mean "state of the library". Will we get a box on Mathilde's character sheet that reads "Status of Library: Expanding"? Yeah, probably. Will we actually get, y'know, narrative talking about the library? Only on occasion, I suspect.
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Well, that's just, like, your opinion suspicion, man.
Way I see it, if Boney wanted to make a binary yes/no choice between full or virtually zero involvement on library, he would've done that.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Well, that's just, like, your opinion suspicion, man.
Way I see it, if Boney wanted to make a binary yes/no choice between full or virtually zero involvement on library, he would've done that.
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I mean, I don't think it's unfair of me to expect High Level Policy to be largely "fire and forget" for a few years at a time, and for the Library to only feature in the narrative on particular special occasions.

AP is partially an abstraction of Boney's limited writing time, after all - if we don't spend the AP on a topic, we don't get the words on the topic, is the way I look at it.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, I don't think it's unfair of me to expect High Level Policy to be largely "fire and forget" for a few years at a time, and for the Library to only feature in the narrative on particular special occasions.

AP is partially an abstraction of Boney's limited writing time, after all - if we don't spend the AP on a topic, we don't get the words on the topic, is the way I look at it.
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Not sure, look:
BoneyM said:
[ ] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
Mathilde will be able to make decisions such as location, selecting a Head Librarian, and setting broad policies, but will not have day-to-day control over the library, so it will not consume any meaningful amount of Mathilde's time.
[ ] (LIBRARY) Head Librarian
Involved in all the day-to-day workings, and able to make staffing decisions, negotiate access to new sources of books, assign priorities for book acquisition, and make sure the day-to-day of the library is going fine. Will count as an organization under Mathilde's control, so will cost a half-action a turn.
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Difference seems to be less that, and more "make hiring decisions, keep books/records straight, etc etc". I imagine that former will look like an additional locked in social action (so, every turn, but doesn't happen that often in-game) (and likely not a social action tax?), while latter will be, well, a regular half-action focused on administrative minutiae.
 
LockedMind said:
I want to be a Head Librarian because I think that it is cool and I want to read about it.
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Well, that's perfectly fair, as long as we are all aware of tradeoffs and that promised action economy relief of research college branch is not going to arrive and that action economy (well, after refactoring, so hard to say, but) is not going to improve and might get worse.
And of, well, Head Librarian text repeating "day-to-day" twice, to make sure we are aware it's an administrative position first and foremost, and not Book Indiana Jones.
 
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