Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[kingreaper]

That was never my position. My position has always been that the criticisms you're applying to the Elves, apply to everyone else too. I did engage with you on why the first Waystone Network was abandoned and said that I don't class the Colleges as an Elven project they pulled out of, but I never made the argument that the Elves wouldn't leave after getting what they want.

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I have always applied my criticisms to everyone else too. But you keep pretending that I'm not doing so, presumably because it's easier to defeat the argument that "elves are uniquely shitty" which I'm not making, rather than "people can't be relied upon to help outsiders" which I am.

The position I was holding that you were arguing against was "Elves have repeatedly pulled out of projects that aid the rest of the world. Any argument that has as its conclusion "they won't pull out if they can help save the world" is therefore clearly flawed.".

Unless you're now claiming that the Elves have knowledge necessary for start-up that they'll refuse to share? I mean, that's a valid position to have, it's just also one that feels like it's making problems before they exist. There's no reason to assume they Elves won't at least try and help with the project.

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Right, I think I get what you're misunderstanding on this subject at least:

We need their knowledge for the research. They will provide their knowledge to the research for as long as they're a participant in said research.

They're quite likely to stop being a participant in said research when they get a solution that allows the repair and maintenance of waystones with their involvement. I want a solution that allows the repair and maintenance of waystones without their involvement. Because then when, inevitably, something comes up that means a human/elf/dwarf triune collab on repairing waystones stops being viable we can make do with a human/dwarf collab.

If we get a solution that requires Kislevite Ice Witches I see no chance the Eonir would consider that "job done, project over". But one that requires both elves and dwarves? Yeah, I can see them being happy with that - and it gives them huge leverage over the empire.

 

[Shard]

If we're going to do negative campaigning, can we at least focus on downsides which are at least somewhat plausible?

I mean I would prefer we didn't go negative campaigning at all but some of the points are just junk and requires stupid evilness.

 

[DragonParadox]

I have always applied my criticisms to everyone else too. But you keep pretending that I'm not doing so, presumably because it's easier to defeat the argument that "elves are uniquely shitty" which I'm not making, rather than "people can't be relied upon to help outsiders" which I am.

The position I was holding that you were arguing against was "Elves have repeatedly pulled out of projects that aid the rest of the world. Any argument that has as its conclusion "they won't pull out if they can help save the world" is therefore clearly flawed.".

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Does two projects count as repeatedly? Especially given that one of said projects was stopped when they had a near apocalyptic war with their principal collaborator (Karan Ankor) and the other presumed elf project was more of a Teclis hobby. I'm just not seeing the same pattern you are.

 

[kingreaper]

If we're going to do negative campaigning, can we at least focus on downsides which are at least somewhat plausible?

I mean I would prefer we didn't go negative campaigning at all but some of the points are just junk and requires stupid evilness.

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If this is aimed at me: I'm not doing negative campaigning against Laurelorn. I'm defending against the argument that Kislev's Ice Witches or Bretonnia's Damsels would be a flaw for taking those positions because we might end up with a solution that requires their involvement.

And the claim that elves might go "we achieved what we set out to achieve, now we're done" doesn't require stupid evilness unless your position is that all real-world humans are stupid-evil?

Does two projects count as repeatedly? Especially given that one of said projects was stopped when they had a near apocalyptic war with their principal collaborator (Karan Ankor) and the other presumed elf project was more of a Teclis hobby. I'm just not seeing the same pattern you are.

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It counts as repeatedly when the claim being countered is that they'd never do such a thing - that they should be expected to show inhuman reliability.

It's justification to be worried that it could happen in future, according to standard sophont incentives like "we're at war with those guys" or "We want to remain valuable to the folks who might otherwise kill us"

 

[agumentic]

Also, measuring all elves by Ulthuan's actions seems wrong regardless of whether said actions were justified. Eonir are not Ulthuan, Splendid Isolation doesn't seem to work out nearly as well when you are a small forest on the continent instead of a superpower on a magical island. It seems quite possible to me that they might continue to cooperate with the project simply for the goodwill it creates if nothing else.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Obviously, dwarfs, humans or elf's could pull out once they get what they want, that is not Elves only thing.

only one answer is to pick none of them to lead the project and instead trust in sheep.

[ ] Carcassonne

Jokes aside, if you do have a worry that any of the groups will pull out if they get want they want, then knightland would be the most trustworthy in that regard.

 

[DragonParadox]

Also, measuring all elves by Ulthuan's actions seems wrong regardless of whether said actions were justified. Eonir are not Ulthuan, Splendid Isolation doesn't seem to work out nearly as well when you are a small forest on the continent instead of a superpower on a magical island. It seems quite possible to me that they might continue to cooperate with the project simply for the goodwill it creates if nothing else.

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That is also a fair point, we know very little about how reliable the Eonir might be and judging them by the measure of Ulthuan would be like measuring the Duke of Monfort by the Standards of the empire because his hand used to be part of an Imperial Mark back in the days of Sigismund the Conqueror, only more so since it has been less than two millennia since that Emperor's reign and far longer since the days when the Eonir were part of Ulthaun's realm.

 

[VoiceOfTheRiders]

If this is aimed at me: I'm not doing negative campaigning against Laurelorn. I'm defending against the argument that Kislev's Ice Witches or Bretonnia's Damsels would be a flaw for taking those positions because we might end up with a solution that requires their involvement.

And the claim that elves might go "we achieved what we set out to achieve, now we're done" doesn't require stupid evilness unless your position is that all real-world humans are stupid-evil?


It counts as repeatedly when the claim being countered is that they'd never do such a thing - that they should be expected to show inhuman reliability.

It's justification to be worried that it could happen in future, according to standard sophont incentives like "we're at war with those guys" or "We want to remain valuable to the folks who might otherwise kill us"

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The issue is that your counter argument has far eclipsed what you are trying to counter. I'm not going to go into how it happened, but it happened. So people are interacting with your argument on its own terms and not as a counter argument.
Secondly I believe that there are a lot of different definitions of what constitutes success and this is causing communication issues. Personally if we achieve what I consider success and then the elves hole up, while I would be disappointed, I would not feely abandoned or betrayed.
Finally I am aware that you are not trying to do this, but it does seem that you are holding the elves to a much higher standard than anyone else, as seen with your initial examples of elf abandonment: which has seen what I believe to be reasonable explanations.

 

[kingreaper]

Also, measuring all elves by Ulthuan's actions seems wrong regardless of whether said actions were justified. Eonir are not Ulthuan, Splendid Isolation doesn't seem to work out nearly as well when you are a small forest on the continent instead of a superpower on a magical island. It seems quite possible to me that they might continue to cooperate with the project simply for the goodwill it creates if nothing else.

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They've been doing the splendid isolation thing for millenia, and have just switched tacks in the last few years, so precedent leans towards them returning to it.

It's certainly possible that they'd decide to keep working with humanity for goodwill purposes. But I think it's foolish to rule out them returning to their millenia-long self-isolation, or using their unique ability to repair waystones as leverage rather than something to work on giving away.

If a group of humans had the unique ability to drain dhar from an area you can bet they wouldn't be eager to share that with folks they were in a centuries-long war with less than a decade ago (i.e. Nordland) - they'd sell the service, but not give away the secret. And that wouldn't even require them to put years of research into sharing it.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

On an entirely different subject: are the Arabyans likely to know anything about Waystones at all?

On the one hand, they're so far south they look at the Empire the same way the Empire looks at Kislev - they're hardly beset by the Winds in the same way as our current options.

On the other hand the Waystone network supposedly encompasses the whole world, and I'd imagine that the streams of magic between Waystones would be even more obvious in such a magically-lacking environment, and they'd be even more incentivised tomake use of the extra energy apparently up for grabs.

On the third mutated hand, Araby apparently has some sketchy canonical elements Boney'd rather not touch, which might put a Doylist limitation on contacting them (and not an unreasonable one.)

 

[Shovern]

I think I see Kingreaper's point? I think?

Like every polity has the potential to drop out. At any point. For good or bad reason. So we can not assume any polity will stay through the entire projects lifespan, nor can we be fully confidant they would stick with the program after.

But we still want to maximize both of those aspects.

For the actual work. I think it true that having Two groups that can build Waystones is better than one. For all that everyone here has reasons to build plenty of 'em, well "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" is accepted as common wisdom for a reason. So yeah, having an "Ice Witch Way" AND "The Good Old Way" is better than just "The Good Old Way". (though yes having even just one is already a massive improvement.)

Now to the actual development of those methods: I think it fair to assume (just like how having it based under your authority is a very valuable card.) That every polity would be more motivated to stick through to get a method then can use. Dawi Elgi, Umgi, All would think that way. Because it's natural to trust yourself over others.

But not all participants are as necessary as the Elgi and Dawi. Those two have much more to contribute to the project (I assume). So if we are trying to maximize the number of methods, then we should try to ensure they both stay on as long as possible. As even if we are working on the "Ice Witch Way" their expertise is very useful. Probably more so than the Ice Witch's are for "The Good Old Way".

So if having a way that works for them increases the odds that they leave (even slightly), then in order to maximize potential success, we should shoot for methods that work for the less valuable polities first (Ice Witch's and Damsels.)

So yeah, the point is not elves bad, It's Elves (And Dwarfs) Leaving is bad. So let's shoot for other branches first, so as too milk both of them for as much sweet research bonus as we can. Then finish their "branch".

Is that the gist of it @kingreaper ?

 

[kingreaper]

Is that the gist of it @kingreaper ?

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Yep, that's it.

 

[DragonParadox]

On an entirely different subject: are the Arabyans likely to know anything about Waystones at all?

On the one hand, they're so far south they look at the Empire the same way the Empire looks at Kislev - they're hardly beset by the Winds in the same way as our current options.

On the other hand the Waystone network supposedly encompasses the whole world, and I'd imagine that the streams of magic between Waystones would be even more obvious in such a magically-lacking environment, and they'd be even more incentivised tomake use of the extra energy apparently up for grabs.

On the third mutated hand, Araby apparently has some sketchy canonical elements Boney'd rather not touch, which might put a Doylist limitation on contacting them (and not an unreasonable one.)

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I think that while new perspectives are good there is such a thing as stretching ourselves too thin and of all the traditions out there I think the Arabeyans are among the lest likely to help since their source is not the Old Ones as many others are but rather the Djinn (warp beings).

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I think that while new perspectives are good there is such a thing as stretching ourselves too thin and of all the traditions out there I think the Arabeyans are among the lest likely to help since their source is not the Old Ones as many others are but rather the Djinn (warp beings).

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Whilst I agree with your point, I do have to ask: do we even know what djinn are? They are demon-like, yes, but is that enough to make them a warp being?

Then again, under some schools of thought, Mathilde is a warp being, so I don't actually know where I'm going with this.

 

[DragonParadox]

Whilst I agree with your point, I do have to ask: do we even know what djinn are? They are demon-like, yes, but is that enough to make them a warp being?

Then again, under some schools of thought, Mathilde is a warp being, so I don't actually know where I'm going with this.

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As far as we understand the cosmology IC and OOC there are only two broad places you can live in:

1. The Material world: Rocks, trees puppies and all that, life has both a body and a soul
2. The Aethyr: things that have a soul but no body, Daemons apparitions, spirits etc...

Now there are in between places like the Hedge of the Hedgewise and places that have been changed, like the Glittering Realm and the halls of the ancestors, but all other things being equal if you hear someone is doing summoning it's a good bet they are summoning from the warp therefore that the Djinn are warp beings. That does not necessarily mean they are bad Ranald is a warp being, but I do not think there is a good bet that gods or other warp spirits have any special lore regarding the Waystones.

 

[agumentic]

They've been doing the splendid isolation thing for millenia, and have just switched tacks in the last few years, so precedent leans towards them returning to it.

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They didn't for quite a while now. They had treaties with Nordland, and perhaps with Drakwald back when it was a province. But, more importantly, they had a war with Drakwald that apparently almost done them in, if we believe Cadaeth. Just returning to isolation - even with some Waystones activated - risks the same thing happening again, only with Nordland or Middenland this time. So I doubt they will be particularly eager to return to it.

Now, I do think it's likely for them to leverage their expertise in Waystone repair should we complete a version that needs elves, but I don't think they would do it in such a drastic and unsubtle way as to pull out of the project and forbid access to their facilities. That just leaves other partners feeling resentful, burns their diplomatic bridges and leaves a possibility of people running a second project with the knowledge from the first that might succeed and cut off Eonir out of the market. That seems like way too much risk for too little reward. Instead, they can offer their services for repair and help with research normally and receive favours for it - and it's not like the Old World is in danger of running out of Waystones to fix, so the market will be there even with other players around.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I think that while the library is drool worthy and runelord secrets are nice.

Ultimately, nether has the answer to the problem

The answer is them working together, and frankly, having humans around to throw in ideas that they might have overlooked and to play middle man.

For that, neutral ground, to create/recreate together, is more important then anything in the elf library or the locked mind of Kragg.

 

[Redshirt Army]

To put some of my thoughts down: "Make new Waystones" is a stretch goal, and a pretty ambitious one at that - we're talking about matching the combined efforts of the Golden Age elves and dwarves.

A lot of people are taking it as a given that we'll manage it, which I think is unwise - we've got a better chance than anyone else has had for millenia, sure, but I fully expect that even if we succeed in dramatic fashion, whatever we come up with will still require a bunch of compromises.

If the only compromise it takes is "requires the combined efforts of Qhaysh, Runecraft, half a dozen human traditions, and several gods", I'd be ecstatic.

So proposing that we do the whole thing with the additional handicap of "only humans required", or even more so "only Colleges of Magic required" seems kind of absurd to me.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

If Human and Dwarf access to the library was essential to the project, the elves wouldn't have made it conditional.

Now I admit it's really nice, it's a solid offer to secure Mathilde's commitment to the elves, and could be really useful for a lot of our personal research.

But in terms of the actual project itself, it's secondary at best.

The elves believe we can do this without the library.

Neutral ground, free of politics and working with groups of different arcane traditions, is going to be a bigger help here, and choosing against the elves won't diminish their contributions.

 

[Ganurath]

Obviously, dwarfs, humans or elf's could pull out once they get what they want, that is not Elves only thing.

only one answer is to pick none of them to lead the project and instead trust in sheep.

[ ] Carcassonne

Jokes aside, if you do have a worry that any of the groups will pull out if they get want they want, then knightland would be the most trustworthy in that regard.

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Trustworthy until a conflict of honor and/or oaths arises. Kislev is far more reliable, on account of their wanting to maximize results of the project, and being fully confident that they won't get a slice of the pie if they aren't giving their all.

 

[065tdsa]

They didn't for quite a while now. They had treaties with Nordland, and perhaps with Drakwald back when it was a province. But, more importantly, they had a war with Drakwald that apparently almost done them in, if we believe Cadaeth. Just returning to isolation - even with some Waystones activated - risks the same thing happening again, only with Nordland or Middenland this time. So I doubt they will be particularly eager to return to it.

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They had treaties, but had no interaction besides those treaties, which is why they tended to fail all the time.

When nobody knows how big the Eonir army is, and nobody benefits from peace with the Eonir in any tangible way except for having less chances to be murdered because there is no meaningful trade, it is hard to argue against military adventures.

 

[pucflek]

blurb

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I understood his point later on, i just think that its about as supported as its counterpoint, and actually less so. Eonir don't see themselves as a world police, particularily because of their number, but they are hecking nerds and i have quoted their general philosophy. If they can begin to chip in on the research of actually restoring parts of the wider network, they will be on it forever.

 

[DragonParadox]

Trustworthy until a conflict of honor and/or oaths arises. Kislev is far more reliable, on account of their wanting to maximize results of the project, and being fully confident that they won't get a slice of the pie if they aren't giving their all.

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If we are trying to figure out how the various factions could have a leadership failure Kislev has a bit of an obvious one, the prince could die and his father is... rather unsophisticated when ti comes to magic.

 

[VoiceOfTheRiders]

To put some of my thoughts down: "Make new Waystones" is a stretch goal, and a pretty ambitious one at that - we're talking about matching the combined efforts of the Golden Age elves and dwarves.

A lot of people are taking it as a given that we'll manage it, which I think is unwise - we've got a better chance than anyone else has had for millenia, sure, but I fully expect that even if we succeed in dramatic fashion, whatever we come up with will still require a bunch of compromises.

If the only compromise it takes is "requires the combined efforts of Qhaysh, Runecraft, half a dozen human traditions, and several gods", I'd be ecstatic.

So proposing that we do the whole thing with the additional handicap of "only humans required", or even more so "only Colleges of Magic required" seems kind of absurd to me.

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Fully agree with this. I think that we do need to come to some consensus of what success will likely look like, because different people are having different definitions and this is breaking down communication due to cross talking.

 

[DragonParadox]

They had treaties, but had no interaction besides those treaties, which is why they tended to fail all the time.

When nobody knows how big the Eonir army is, and nobody benefits from peace with the Eonir in any tangible way except for having less chances to be murdered because there is no meaningful trade, it is hard to argue against military adventures.

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That is kind of a morally questionable notion, it is saying the Eonir should be forced to interact in terms of trade and revealing army size (even if they do not want it) so they can bribe the humans not to try to murder and rob them.