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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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deathofrats0808 said:
You keep making arguments about the Elves somehow needing to have minimal involvement, despite the fact your arguments are very broad and apply to, as far as I can tell, everyone who might be involved.
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Why is it so hard to grasp the idea that when people respond to me by saying "it's fine to rely on elves, they're completely always reliable" I'd talk about elves?

When I mentioned that relying on dwarves is a weakness no-one started ranting at me about how I should trust that dwarves will forever be perfect - or how I'm being unfair on dwarves by holding them to the same standard as humans - it's just ELVES that get that response.

I want a solution that doesn't require elves, just like I want one that doesn't require dwarves - because fewer requirements is better - it's just that not requiring elves is more plausible to achieve. But apparently that means that I hate elves, and think they're all horrendously incompetent and evil...
 
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I want to see more of the elves so I'm voting for the elves.

[ ] Laurelorn

Maybe I'll also be approval voting for Carcassonne, since Athel Loren is nearby. Not exactly the kind of interaction I want, but maybe we can pull some diplomatic move on them if they don't shot us the moment they see us (a tall order from what little I know about them). And if it works then maybe we can continue trying to solve the mystery of Cor-Dum. Still, this is highly optimistic so Laurelorn is my first choice.
 
One point in favor of Laurelorn not directly related to the project.
We might be able to learn more about Loec, or elven gods in general.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
I think that your argument has gone off the rails and moved beyond this, but to go back to your original argument and I think to continue you will need to answer this following, because otherwise we are arguing cross purposes.: What constitutes a success for A) Mathilde, B) the various potential sponsors.

My answer for both is when we can successfully re-add a waystone to the network. I do not believe that we will need to do maintenance on individual waystones since that has not been needed for millennium e.g. when K8P was re-added it was done so successfully despite greenskin and especially skaven occupation.

Finally I believe that you are placing a far stricter standard on the Elves than on other factions, which is unreasonable.
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Actually, I suspect the answer is more:

Success Condition:

Mathilde: Render functional a nonfunctional waystone, create a new waystone, improve the functionality of an existing waystone (ex: Waytrees).
By Sponsor: Use the Waystone(s) or the very existence of the Waystones to solve their specific problem(s).
 
BoneyM said:
As a path of edification, you could go through my posts directed at you in the last day and a half. It feels to me that the trajectory of my fraying patience would be clearly visible. I would have liked it if you had taken this as an opportunity to consider how it is you're engaging with this thread and the people in it.

I am absolutely not going to get into this five-pronged debate with you. You have one QM you feel you are being treated unfairly by. According to recent votes, I have perhaps as many as six hundred active players to manage. If one of those names keeps showing up attached to arguments that turn heated, the amount of patience with which I engage with that poster is not going to be bottomless. Is this unfair? Perhaps. Also unfair is that at no point in the last 36 24 hours have I felt confident enough that the thread is not going to burst into flames to get some sleep, and that timer started at about the time I would normally have gone to bed.

And while I have stared at this post and tried to formulate a reasonable response and backspaced away quite a number of unreasonable responses, the posts immediately following it are getting much more heated than I'd like.
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Please take care of your health. Maybe someone from the mod team can help keep an eye on things? In the most extreme case, locking the thread would be preferable.
 
Well now i just got myself excited. Laurelorn tree spirits are apparently fairly chill, if weak and hungry. Ya'll think we could maybe make friends with one? :V
 
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kingreaper said:
Why is it so hard to grasp the idea that when people respond to me by saying "it's fine to rely on elves, they're completely always reliable" I'd talk about elves?

When I mentioned that relying on dwarves is a weakness no-one started ranting at me about how I should trust that dwarves will forever be perfect - or how I'm being unfair on dwarves by holding them to the same standard as humans - it's just ELVES that get that response.
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Because nobody, as far as I've seen, has made the argument that the Elves can always be trusted to be there. Also, because you appear to have started from the position of minimizing Laurelorn's involvement, but not caring about anyone else's. You briefly mentioned the Dwarfs, but that was a very brief mention in a whole paragraph of talking about how you don't want Laurelorn to be the first success. Whether you meant to or not, that gives the impression you're far more concerned about the Elves being a problem than anyone else.
 
BoneyM said:
Perhaps. Also unfair is that at no point in the last 36 24 hours have I felt confident enough that the thread is not going to burst into flames to get some sleep, and that timer started at about the time I would normally have gone to bed.
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Erm, Boney, please go to sleep. This quest can't be ahead of your well being.

At worst, if some voters can't behave themselves, they'll get punished by the moderators.

That is not worth you losing your sleep over it.
 
I don't know any of the lore, other than what I've read in the quest (and even most of that is forgotten) so I asked my WH nerd friend which option they would pick. They said to vote for Kislev.
 
Aeh, I think I'm going to go with "elves first suggested this project, so let's do it at their place". If Kragg or Thorek are not interested enough to visit elven home, then they would not be interested enough anyway.
 
Frankly, Humans not being able to maintain the Network is a win for the Eonir, and they won't quit after the "get theirs".

Having more imperial buy in in keeping Nordland off their back is one of their goals.

It creates codependency between the polities, and gives the Empire more reasons to care about what the Eonir say.

And before anyone says they would sabotage/stop the project after they get theirs to leave the empire dependent on them:
If they do so after we figure out how to make new waystones, I don't really consider that a major loss, as long as they stick to the bargain, just another case of Divided loyalties.

More incentive to not fight our allies.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Because nobody, as far as I've seen, has made the argument that the Elves can always be trusted to be there.
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Your starting position was that I was wrong to worry about what would happen if the elves pulled out after getting what they wanted, because they wouldn't do that.

So was several other people's.

Have you changed your mind?

Also, because you appear to have started from the position of minimizing Laurelorn's involvement, but not caring about anyone else's. You briefly mentioned the Dwarfs, but that was a very brief mention in a whole paragraph of talking about how you don't want Laurelorn to be the first success. Whether you meant to or not, that gives the impression you're far more concerned about the Elves being a problem than anyone else.
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I made it very clear why it matters more when the elves pull out of the research - they have information that we need.

If Kislev get a solution that works for them and pull out? Fine, the Eonir will keep the project going. If the Eonir get one and pull out? We could try and keep it going, but given as we can only start it because of the Eonir involvement that's a huge impediment.
 
The elves also promised the greatest amount of support so far with the promise to send mages to where the project is and the problem they seem to want to fix is the beastmen attacks so they might be fine with the power going elsewhere like the great vortex as long as it is not producing Dhar and beastmen in or nearby their woods.
 
Do ya'll think that there are still treemen in Laurelorn? Their wiki entry says they apparently dwell exclusively in Athel Loren, but that just seems weird. I would expect them in Averlorn and Laurelorn too.
 
pucflek said:
Do ya'll think that there are still treemen in Laurelorn? Their wiki entry says they apparently dwell exclusively in Athel Loren, but that just seems weird. I would expect them in Averlorn and Laurelorn too.
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Seems quite plausible to me that they'd be there. Probably one of the things we'll only find out if we set up there.
 
pucflek said:
Do ya'll think that there are still treemen in Laurelorn? Their wiki entry says they apparently dwell exclusively in Athel Loren, but that just seems weird. I would expect them in Averlorn and Laurelorn too.
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Well zoats are everywhere (but hiding) in the Old World, so treemen may be too? There's a bunch of forest 'fairy' things (called shit like 'Spites' because grimdark gonna grimdark) that roam the forests of the Old World, not just Athel Loren although they're most common there. On that note, maybe we can try to track down a Zoat, see if it has any knowledge of the Waystones. They're masters of Ghyran and there has to be some reason that the human wizards who took up maintenance of the Waystones (and the Truthsayers too now that I think about it) all focus on Ghyran.
 
BoneyM said:
As a path of edification, you could go through my posts directed at you in the last day and a half. It feels to me that the trajectory of my fraying patience would be clearly visible. I would have liked it if you had taken this as an opportunity to consider how it is you're engaging with this thread and the people in it.

I am absolutely not going to get into this five-pronged debate with you. You have one QM you feel you are being treated unfairly by. According to recent votes, I have perhaps as many as six hundred active players to manage. If one of those names keeps showing up attached to arguments that turn heated, the amount of patience with which I engage with that poster is not going to be bottomless. Is this unfair? Perhaps. Also unfair is that at no point in the last 36 24 hours have I felt confident enough that the thread is not going to burst into flames to get some sleep, and that timer started at about the time I would normally have gone to bed.

And while I have stared at this post and tried to formulate a reasonable response and backspaced away quite a number of unreasonable responses, the posts immediately following it are getting much more heated than I'd like.
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To be clear, I was looking to explain myself and for clarification - not debate, I did not plan to argue anything you said in response. There was no invitation to a 5 pronged debate.

That being said, I would like to apologize unconditionally for anything in my conduct that has offended you and will keep your message in mind in the future.
 
kingreaper said:
Your starting position was that I was wrong to worry about what would happen if the elves pulled out after getting what they wanted, because they wouldn't do that.

So was several other people's.

Have you changed your mind?


I made it very clear why it matters more when the elves pull out of the research - they have information that we need.

If Kislev get a solution that works for them and pull out? Fine, the Eonir will keep the project going. If the Eonir get one and pull out? We could try and keep it going, but given as we can only start it because of the Eonir involvement that's a huge impediment.
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That was never my position. My position has always been that the criticisms you're applying to the Elves, apply to everyone else too. I did engage with you on why the first Waystone Network was abandoned and said that I don't class the Colleges as an Elven project they pulled out of, but I never made the argument that the Elves wouldn't leave after getting what they want.

Apart from the fact you're making an assumption about how various polities will react (there's no guarantee the Eonir will keep the project going once, say, Kislev has what they want) you're also assuming that the Elves have knowledge that is necessary for ongoing work. Which directly contradicts what you said earlier:

kingreaper said:
I'm equally concerned about the dwarves, but the dwarves are irreplaceable. The elves aren't.

We need the knowledge of the elves, but it's quite plausible that it'll be possible to keep working without ongoing elven support once we've worked out what to do - because humans can do the same types of magic as elves.
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Unless you're now claiming that the Elves have knowledge necessary for start-up that they'll refuse to share? I mean, that's a valid position to have, it's just also one that feels like it's making problems before they exist. There's no reason to assume they Elves won't at least try and help with the project.
 
if we're worried about the Elves pissing off once they learn the bare minimum needed to ensure they need no one else to achieve things on their own it stands to reason the best place to put the project is Laurelorn where Mathilde will have access to their magical libraries and the ability to essentially learn all the magic lore needed to jump the Colleges magical knowledge ahead by god knows how much.

That said I don't rate this particular worry as much of a concern, the Elves of Laurelorn have made it clear they're looking to cooperate and that they aren't interested in hiding their magical lore.
 
Mopman43 said:
I'm not confident Mathilde knows a Zoat exists or that it might have relevant knowledge.

The only ones in the Old World who seem to know anything about them are Athel Loren.
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Yeah Zoats are just all around obscure. Treemen tho. I would be really interested in meeting one, they are apparently very chill. When they are not named Coeddil or Durthu.
 
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