Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SakSak]

No, wait, I was sure a long timeframe was mentioned somewhere, and I found it! Could be hyperbole since it is in-character perspective, but still:

Once more you're surrounded in a cloud of turbulent fog as you barely manage to finish the spell, and once more you consider yourself quite lucky to have both a staff and a testing chamber perfectly suited for this activity. The first time casting a new spell is always troublesome, but it sure beats the Elven method where a spell candidate is meditated on for decades to study it for any possible flaw. You make the requisite corrections to your casting notes, perform the spell a few more times in perfect conditions to be sure, then you move onto stage two of testing.

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So at least Mathilde believes it entirely in-character for Elves to meditate on a single spell for several decades before attempting to cast it. Whereas humans get confident enough to try, then try, likely fail or eat a miscast, but learn from the failure so that their next try is more likely to succeed.

 

[Boney]

@BoneyM Regarding options like Carcassone where we don't have any pre-established relationship to rely on, is it possible that investigating it might lead to (rolled) outcomes that end up making the option more or less feasible, or even infeasible? Or have you frozen that aspect of the game for now in order to give us maximum freedom to choose?

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I won't answer this question. You're asking for explicit OOC information that will give you insight into whether a given choice might be more or less viable.

No, wait, I was sure a long timeframe was mentioned somewhere, and I found it! Could be hyperbole since it is in-character perspective, but still:

So at least Mathilde believes it entirely in-character for Elves to meditate on a single spell for several decades before attempting to cast it. Whereas humans get confident enough to try, then try, likely fail or eat a miscast, but learn from the failure so that their next try is more likely to succeed.

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This is talking about the creation of an entirely new spell, not the learning of an existing one.

 

[ScarabShell]

I mean, Realms of Sorcery is very explicit that High Magic is a process not an object.

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But it says the same thing about regular Dhar usage, which is not the case in this quest. Here is the relevant quote from page 38:

In the Old World, High Magic it not a thing in its own right, like any of the separate Winds of Magic. It is instead the process of using the Winds of Magic in a balanced, focused, and safe way.

In a similar manner Dark Magic—or Dhar—is usually the result of careless instinctive and grasping use of multiple Winds of Magic.

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This is contrasted with "True Dhar":

True Dhar, however, is not just not just the process of using the pure colours of magic in an unbalanced way; instead, it's an independently existent stagnant pool of all the Winds of Magic.

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In quest Dhar is treated exclusively as a separate substance, however, so the same could also hold for High Magic. There is also this quote from the "Collection of Important Information" threadmark's section on AV,

'High' magic, of which humans know very little, is when an extremely skilled practitioner of magic uses all eight winds of magic in unison. Normally, if someone uses multiple winds of magic, the result becomes Dhar - imagine someone trying to mix paints and it inevitably resulting in a mucky brown tone. When a sufficiently skilled wizard does it, they can combine the colours into a pure magic called Qhaysh, similarly to how we are taught 'white' light is made up of all colours combined. No known human is capable of such a feat, as it (in theory) takes centuries of careful study to achieve it.

The snake's 'blood' seems to be similar to Qhaysh, but it is not quite.

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which makes it sound more like Qhaysh is a separate substance, especially the part where it is compared to AV.

 

[Rafin]

I won't answer this question. You're asking for explicit OOC information that will give you insight into whether a given choice might be more or less viable.

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And more generically applied to all choices?

But yeah. I didn't ask this question at the right time. Is it okay to ask it again after we firmly established our future? And without asking about any one specific choice? I don't want to know what's better or worse, I'm curious on how the quest is structured in situations like this.

 

[Boney]

And more generically applied to all choices?

But yeah. I didn't ask this question at the right time. Is it okay to ask it again after we firmly established our future? And without asking about any one specific choice? I don't want to know what's better or worse, I'm curious on how the quest is structured in situations like this.

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I'd rather you didn't. I want people to engage with the narrative, not dissect the mechanics.

 

[storryeater]

I'd rather you didn't. I want people to engage with the narrative, not dissect the mechanics.

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Pretty sure the mechanics in this quest are like magic

Study them too closely, and they change their rules just to spite you.

 

[seekingflame]

Pretty sure the mechanics in this quest are like magic

Study them too closely, and they change their rules just to spite you.

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Why magic when we have a much closer parallel?

Try and study the mechanics of the quest too deep and you get a friendly reprimand.

To my very dear friend, it begins, and most of the ink after that has smeared beyond recognition. One single word, left miraculously untouched in the middle of the mess of stains, remains legible: don't. And at the very bottom, it is signed Yours most sincerely.

The name below that, you're quite sure, is Ronald MoneyB. But the handwriting makes it very, very easy to mistake that O for an A M and B.

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[Jyn Ryvia]

So, While I was trying to theories how we can convince Carcassone to let us work in their land (Enchantment commotions, helping out whenever there is a big orc invasion etc) I tried to do the same with Praag.

but really, there is a lot Tazr could use a Grey wizard for: secret police is his jam, and well, internal war against the north.
so that one is less 'what we can offer him' and more 'here is want he wants.'

 

[Darth.]

[ ] Attempt to finish off the Grey College spellbook by learning Shadow of Death, Cloak Activity, and the MAPP.

I'm going to argue for the above action next turn. (even if a bad roll might leave us stuck with an unfinished Shadow of Death for the rest of the quest.

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Shadow of Death is the "fearsome" aura right? Why do we need that when we have the more powerful "dread" aura?

I mean, I'm not opposed to it since if we can fit all that into one action, might as well, but at the same time if the Cloak Action or MAPP spells get bad rolls we might need more "screen time" to work those out that might otherwise be taken up by Shadow of Death.

Also, what's the difference between the MAP and MAPP spells? The latter is more stripped down and easier for casting yes, but why do we need to learn it when the MAP is more intricate and detailed and we can do it quite easily? Is there something the MAPP can do that MAP can't?

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Shadow of Death is the "fearsome" aura right? Why do we need that when we have the more powerful "dread" aura?

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the difference between intimating someone in negotiation and scaring them to the point of fight or flight. (dread is only a fight spell, Shadow can be used outside of fights.)

but ya thats the option of most people, (not mine, I do think there are different uses, see above.) which is why I said that if it's not completed in the buggle round it's probably never going to be.

 

[Mopman43]

Is there something the MAPP can do that MAP can't?

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I believe the theory is that, if we were to create an item using MAPP, other people might be able to mess around with it compared to if it was using MAP.

Also, completionism.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I believe the theory is that, if we were to create an item using MAPP, other people might be able to mess around with it compared to if it was using MAP.

Also, completionism.

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also: masteries add stuff to a spell.

not guaranteed (no one really knows Boney's thinking when it comes to masteries), but a good mastery could change everyone's option on the spell.

 

[Fayhem]

The thing that keeps getting stuck on my mind is Cathay and Ind who both has appearently have very advanced magic traditions* but has never been explained in canon. It is very frustrating to me.

Edit: *without elves help.

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Well, magic has been legal in the Empire for, what, about 150 years? Magic has been legal in Cathay for thousands of years; the canonical timeline confirms that Cathay was already practicising Astramancy at a rather high level in -2750 IC. That's 5236 years from then until current time in the quest. That's almost certainly the longest continuously practiced human arcane magical tradition in the world; yes, even longer than Nehekhara's, and they cheated by turning into undead. Certainly much, much longer than any in the Old World. Bretonnia's had the Lady of the Lake and their magical tradition for very roughly 1500 years. Kislev has only existed for very roughly 1000 years. And as aforementioned, Cathay has magical seniority on the Empire by roughly an order of magnitude that is then multiplied three and a half times.

tl;dr - they've had a LOT of time to get advanced.

 

[Mopman43]

Well, magic has been legal in the Empire for, what, about 150 years? Magic has been legal in Cathay for thousands of years; the canonical timeline confirms that Cathay was already practicising Astramancy at a rather high level in -2750 IC. That's 5236 years from then until current time in the quest. That's almost certainly the longest continuously practiced human arcane magical tradition in the world; yes, even longer than Nehekhara's, and they cheated by turning into undead. Certainly much, much longer than any in the Old World. Bretonnia's had the Lady of the Lake and their magical tradition for very roughly 1500 years. Kislev has only existed for very roughly 1000 years. And as aforementioned, Cathay has magical seniority on the Empire by roughly an order of magnitude that is then multiplied three and a half times.

tl;dr - they've had a LOT of time to get advanced.

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You know, being fair- the fact that Cathay has existed throughout this period does not guarantee their magical traditions are perfectly inherited with no rough patches and such.

 

[picklepikkl]

Ugh, deep magical theory thread madness. So boring. You know what's interesting? Grammar. Spelling. Typos. Today, my friends, we finish the march to Karak Eight Peaks.

Spoiler: Here There Be Proofreading Notes

Scouting Interlude 1

others over it's reptilian rear half

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it's -> its

Scouting Interlude 2

The entrance is wide enough for twenty to march abreast, and slopes sharply downwards, quickly vanishes into darkness.

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vanishes -> vanishing

but there's still unanswered questions.

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there's -> there are

Scouting Interlude 3

generations of fungus have leeched trace nutrients from the stone.

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leeched -> leached (this is pedantic even by my standards, feel free to ignore this one)

when there's, presumably, entire dwarfholds of greenskins

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there's -> there are

Scouting Interlude 4

The Expedition has reached and cross the second tributary

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cross -> crossed

work is underway on a bridge across the river itself and push into the valley as far as the river dock

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I'm genuinely not certain what "push into the valley as far as the river dock" is supposed to mean and what is supposed to be doing it -- the bridge or the expedition.

K8P March Week 8

by the delusions it cause

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cause -> causes

Your next task is to assist Johan

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Johan -> Johann

ensuring its as peaceful as it looks

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its -> it's

the first of the resupply ships is soon going to be steaming its way upriver very soon

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Repetition: "soon" and "very soon"

K8P March Week 9

If their city was any quieter

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was -> were

so fortunate alone was responsible

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fortunate -> fortune

all the way down it's length

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it's -> its

it's shriek of pain

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it's -> its

it's bites lose their strength

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it's -> its

K8P March Week 10

occassional forays into Athel Loren

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occassional -> occasional

fired the imaginations Karak Norn

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imaginations Karak Norn -> imaginations of Karak Norn

up a long, twisting path up from the Pass which switchbacks up

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repetition of "up" several times in this bit

The four of your brainstorm

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your -> you

 

[Andres]

And the Cult of Verena has the excuse of having the religious obligation to 'safeguard knowledge at all costs'. That makes limiting access to their library to maintain their political power within Marienburg is very easy to justify. It really seems like you invented some idea for what Verena should stand for and then started to get outraged at Marienburg Verenans for not living up to that ideal. Verena is not a Goddess of spreading knowledge, she's a Goddess of preserving knowledge.

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Verenans believe in learning, but not necessarily in teaching. Mainstream Verenan thought is that people need to learn to better themselves, rather than have betterment forced upon them. That's why in Altdorf they work alongside the University, rather than being fully a part of it.

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Tome of Salvation, page 75

The Scrollbearers fervently believe knowledge is power, and actively crave this power. They do this by collecting and hoarding as many scrolls, tomes and books as they can get their hands on, by whatever means they can, even going as far as stealing books they cannot buy. Scrollbearers are far from altruistic, and jealously guard their collections from others. For this reason they are viewed with disdain by most Verenans, who believe in making knowledge available to all. There are some Verenans, however, who look upon the secretive wealth of knowledge in the hands of the Scrollbearers with more than a little envy.

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@BoneyM is what you've decided for the attitudes of mainstream Verenan thought in Divided Loyalties compatible with this extract or does it override it?

 

[Boney]

Tome of Salvation, page 75

@BoneyM is what you've decided for the attitudes of mainstream Verenan thought in Divided Loyalties compatible with this extract or does it override it?

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See: 'has the excuse' and 'very easy to justify'. Excuses and justifications would not be needed if the Cult as a whole didn't care about making knowledge available to all. But even though the belief might be commonly held by the rank and file, it's not a core tenet of the Cult and it's not enshrined in the strictures. Knowledge being available to all is seen as desirable, but it always comes second to their explicitly God-given obligation to preserve that knowledge. That's why the Scrollbearers are frowned upon, rather than being declared heretics and purged from the Cult.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

Why did Teclis teach about how to use Ulgu for the Pit of Shades, but the Colleges had to invent Mystifying Miasma? Presumably, Teclis thought it was worth his time teaching the latter not the former.

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I believe you mean "teaching the former not the latter" there - "former" refers the earlier item and "latter" to the later item, so "former" in this case refers to Pit of Shades (taught by Teclis) and "latter" refers to Mystifying Miasma (invented by Melkoth).

 

[Verdom]

Is Verena the god of learning new stuff? If not is there one?

 

[Boney]

Is Verena the god of learning new stuff? If not is there one?

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Tzeentch.

 

[silentorphan]

See, this is why Mathilde should be buddy-buddy with van Horstmann.

 

[LockedMind]

Why did Teclis teach about how to use Ulgu for the Pit of Shades, but the Colleges had to invent Mystifying Miasma?

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Elven monowind magic cleaves (at least White Tower tradition, I'm not talking about mist-mages or dragon princes, but Teclis is a White Tower Loremaster) close to Cardinal magic since they can use other Winds or High Magic for non-Cardinal effects. While we don't have Elemental/Mystical/Cardinal divide for the Battle Magic spells, Pit of Shades (which uses the nature of Ulgu as a liminal realm) seems much more Cardinal than Miasma (which is a time-manipulating magic while Ulgu seems to have slim-to-none connection to time).

TL;DR: Teclis didn't teach Miasma because it is one of the spells that require unique paradigm to invent.

 

[matvprok]

Pit of Shades (which uses the nature of Ulgu as a liminal realm) seems much more Cardinal than Miasma (which is a time-manipulating magic while Ulgu seems to have slim-to-none connection to time).

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On other hand, what wind does have better connection to time than Ulgu? Cardinal magic is defined in relative, not absolute terms, "which of the winds is closer to the phenomenon".
In fact, it could be so that some phenomenons and concepts are inherently better approximated by the array of Eight Winds and so Wind magic, be it monowind or Qhaysh, could perform better in some fields of effects than in others - while one likely could "decompose" any desirable effect by basis of Eight Winds, some effects just could be done less "energy"-efficiently than others, because of very nature of such discrete basis.

 

[Rafin]

On other hand, what wind does have better connection to time than Ulgu? Cardinal magic is defined in relative, not absolute terms, "which of the winds is closer to the phenomenon".
In fact, it could be so that some phenomenons and concepts are inherently better approximated by the array of Eight Winds and so Wind magic, be it monowind or Qhaysh, could perform better in some fields of effects than in others - while one likely could "decompose" any desirable effect by basis of Eight Winds, some effects just could be done less "energy"-efficiently than others, because of very nature of such discrete basis.

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The straight forward way that comes to mind to anyone trying to manipulate time (as far as something like that can even be straight forward) is to immediately go for Qaysh and try to study and replicate how such things happen in the Aethyr. If I were a Wizard of Hoeth, the idea of trying to achieve something so major while handicapping myself to only one Wind would be ludicrous.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

so as its on the topic: here is the list of known (tho not all) heresies: e,g the groups that the cults don't just frown upon, but go, 'no your doctrine is wrong.' by their parent cult.

Apostles of Truth: Believe that Sigmar was a mere mortal who was blessed by the Gods, but is not a God himself.
Nordenians: enemies of the Apostles of Truth, growing so violent and savage in hunting them down that they, too, had to
be cast out.

Ariasanism: Believe that Sigmar is the spawn of the Ruinous Powers.

Blood of the Sea: Pirate lords who infiltrated and perverted the cult of Manann.

Brotherhood of Amar: Believe that Taal is the weak son of Rhya, rather than her husband and ruler of the wilds.

Jemarism: Believe that Ranald created the other gods as a grand, cosmic joke.

Order of Lancers: Shallyan heretics who performed "cures" on healthy individuals.

Tavolians: Cultists of Myrmidia who sacked temples to fund their own army, supposedly with the goal of toppling the Sigmarites.

Wolfenburgians: Believe in only two gods: Sigmar, the benevolent deity, who created the human soul; and a dark god, an evil
deity, who created the world as a form of prison for those souls.

White Flames: A sub-sect of Witch Hunters who believed that all merchants were tools of the Ruinous Powers

Individual heresies: The Cult of Verena is dedicated to justice, fairness, and debate. cultists are encouraged to argue the tenants of their faith among their peers. but when a particularly persistent belief arises that cannot be ignored, the cult holds tribunals to debate the merits and flaws of it. If the beliefs are deemed unworthy, then the proponents of the belief are cast out.