For the Preservation of the Tradition of the Karaz Ankor Mathilde Weber should lie to one of her closest friends, because she is such and admirer of dwarf tradition.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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For the Preservation of the Tradition of the Karaz Ankor Mathilde Weber should lie to one of her closest friends, because she is such and admirer of dwarf tradition.
- Location
- Earth
[X] Yes
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Yes, because if the Karaz Ankor goes to shit because the tradition that keeps it from vicious infighting stops being a tradition, the Empire joins them in the drain soon after and the Order falls.
Mathilde doesn't have to like it, but she understands what damage control is and that withholding info is important sometimes.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm immensely more willing to risk a little interpersonal tension than a possible civil war. Mathilde has kept bigger secrets of Belegar's behalf. If Belegar believes that Mathilde has wronged him, she's earned the right to give an explanation. To Belegar, High King Thorgrim wouldn't be extended that same trust.
I know we all like Belegar, but part of being a good friend is knowing when not to push someone's big red self-destruct button. (Also, there's this little white lie about this book Mathilde has never read ever. Remember that?)
Right, everything goes to shit if tradition gets disturbed the least bit. You know I think this mentality is how the dwarfs got into the hole they are currently living in.
[X] Yes
He is smart enough to figure things out and do the math. Better we tell him first.
He is smart enough to figure things out and do the math. Better we tell him first.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Wait, are you suggesting that he'd do this publicly?
I apologise for suggesting you were debating dishonestly, as I had indeed misunderstood you.
I still disagree with you though. The last time Belegar went to the High King with something he knew Thorgrim had done, he did so quietly enough that publicly there not only was no misunderstanding, but everyone who knew Mathilde had sent for aid and was rebuffed was sworn to secrecy. I do not think it a stretch to believe that with this, where he believes Thorgrim has done something but does not know so, that he would be similarly circumspect in public.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hence my citation of both her profession and her faith, which will inform her limits and morals and will in both cases come down on the side of "lying is not inherently wrong." Like, if I just said "our Intrigue is 25" or something then you'd have a point, but I'm not really sure how you got "we're good at lying" as being the main thrust of my argument.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Some traditions are pretty good. This one keeps Karaz Ankor non-fractious. It keeps it alive. Putting every tradition on a "this is all bad" pile is kinda mistaken if you ask me.
See, this would be a fair enough point if he didn't believe that the move he did last time just led to Thorgrim screwing him over even more. Which we will now be giving him more evidence to support.
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Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
Except there isn't a precedent of a system 7000 years old that can be argued for, when there are at any point in time two people at most in the world who know about it. And if Belegar learns of the precedent in full, as Thorgrim would have to do to refute Belegar's claims, the whole situation is resolved.
Lying is not inherently wrong because it is lying.
Lying to someone who comes from a very honor-based culture and who would see this as betrayal is wrong.
Really? Because from where I am standing it and the secrecy it is attached to is the root of the problem.
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Sure it is, it is a lie by omission. We make the report and do not include something we know he would want to know.
- Location
- France
[X] No
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
While I am voting Yes, I don't really like the argument "Belegar can do the math, he'll figure it out even if we don't tell him".
Mathilde clearly thinks it won't be self-ecidently obvious, otherwise we wouldn't have a vote whether or not she'll tell him.
Do vote Yes, but please do so because you want Belegar to know and not because you think he'll learn either way and we might as well tell him.
Mathilde clearly thinks it won't be self-ecidently obvious, otherwise we wouldn't have a vote whether or not she'll tell him.
Do vote Yes, but please do so because you want Belegar to know and not because you think he'll learn either way and we might as well tell him.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His.
[x] Yes
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
The internal conflict is already there, and leaving Belegar in ignorance isn't going to do anything to resolve it. And unless it is resolved, it will fester into a full-on Grudge, and from there, possibly civil war.
Mathilde can be wrong. I do not think it is assured he would find out, but I do not think it is impossible either.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well, the thing is that last time it worked, actually. Thorgrim gave him a bunch of craftsmen to rebuild Karak Eight Peaks with. He thinks Thorgrim was more amenable to this because Karak Eight Peaks is sending him Winds - and he's right - but it shows what his first response will be here. It's not like Karak Eight Peaks was worse off for doing so - he got repairs he wouldn't have otherwise, and Thorgrim would have "stolen" his Winds regardless.
And if the only consequence were interpersonal tensions, I would have agreed. But worst case - Belegar would see Mathilde's deception as a consequence of some kind of Thorgrim' action and this would make the worst possible outcome more probable and would weaken Mathilde's ability to actually moderate the situation.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Yes. I agree, the tradition that led to this conundrum is bad. Or maybe its not, because the dwarfs would have sealed themselves to all die out because they knew they were about to turn to stone when Vlag and Dum fell. Who knows.
But thats not the same tradition as the one that keeps the Kings from acting out and leads to civil war.
Or the one where they judge people by their merit, so they are not as nasty to wizards as Empire folk is. Mathilde rather enjoys that, no?
I am not arguing that Thorgrim should keep silent, this problem needs resolution. But giving Belegar more reasons to do whatever is not it, because it tarnishes tradition that keeps Karaz Ankor mostly glued together despite the ocassional ribbing.
I think his reaction to discovery of the theft is rather telling. And his previous held beliefs which i started this whole argument with. But i don't think we will convince each other of the truth of our opinions.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
All well and good, but it ignores that we don't actually have the power to hide this from Belegar in the first place. As others have pointed out, the timeline of the expedition, Vlag's return, and Thorgrim's travel and announcement reveal it, and Belegar is more capable than Mathilde is of seeing the inconsistency.
And if it's him finding out on his own, there will be nobody to moderate his reaction or conclusions.
The shitstorm is almost certainly coming either way. The only choice before us is whether or not we face it on our own terms.