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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] Redshirt Army

[X] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
 
So, while I understand there's an interesting puzzle here, and gathering info is very appealing, here's the mission statement:

BoneyM said:
"Karag Dum was cut off from the Karaz Ankor one hundred and eighty-five years ago by the forces of Asavar Kul during the Great War Against Chaos," you say to the assembled Wizards. "Our mission is to travel there to determine the current status of the Dwarfhold. From there, the mission could be simply to return to the Karaz Ankor with that information, or it could be evacuation or salvaging. Different parties have different expectations due to varying levels of optimism and cynicism, so treat the topic with caution if you discuss it with the Dwarves."
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Our mission was to ascertain the situation at KD. We have that, at least in broad strokes. Chaos waste expansion, Kurgan attacks, Desert, Forest, Beastman demigod, and a lack of surprise from Borek, who abandoned us and went into the forest. How do we convince anybody else that it's worth it to stay around and collect more information? Snorri wants to turn back, Gotrek's dead, and the knights stopped ranging out because the Chaos Wastes are the Chaos Wastes.

When we first started out the concern was that Borek would be unreasonable and keep us heading forward in bad or risky situations, but right now it's an uncomfortable parallel for Mathilde.

Mind, I'm not saying that we shouldn't suggest both (or more) currently leading actions, and I would love to solve the mystery here. I just legitimately don't see how we could convince anybody else that staying around to get more information is worth risking their lives when there's already a perilous return journey and crucial information to report.
 
consequences said:
Wild theory# 5763:

They took their crown with its Rune of Kingship, and perverted it, first using it to absorb the last king of the hold entirely, and then implanting the crown into Cor-Dum, also carving runes of Valaya amongst others into him to reduce his constant reality fuckery. The Chaos gods are pissed, but no one of the four has a solid enough hold to use it as a channel without opening themselves up to the other three, or potentially some one shot Golden Age Dawi God draining last ditch fuck you.
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I mean, that would also explain how he is affectionate and apparently protecting the dwarfhold and definitely sufficiently heretical.

Problem is how they'd managed to get a hold of him, but he could still have simply spawned there. Something like Borek's dad or grandpa killing himself so they could plop the crown on Morghur before he destroys the Hold... Maybe.

Possessing the guy who is possessing one of their kids isn't something I thought of, but the really, really powerful Master Rune of Kingship, made in the Golden Age/Age of Ancestors, is there and would have about the same weight of memories as Morghur's own, time-wise, and be way more coherent.
 
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Trying to stay and get more information right now is asking for trouble for everyone.

We should leave while we're ahead of the game, ahead of...whatever Karak Dum has done, and tell everyone, the Empire, Karaz Ankor, Hades, even Ulthuan and everyone in-between about what we just say while we still can.
 
BoneyM said:
Dolgan
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Huh. If anyone is interested in the etymology of the "dolgan" tribe, it's either a nod to the real nationality living mostly in Yakutia or the Kalmyk name "Dolgan", which means "wave", the ethnicity now inhabiting the steppes roughly in correlation to Europe with where this region of Warhammer Fantasy is relative to the Old World.

Probably the former, though.

The latter would have probably be called Dol'gan if GW knew enough to care about the pronunciation.
 
What do people to hope to gain by investigating other than satisfying their curiosity? This still remains an open question to me. I don't see how the dwarves can be rescued, as they have been dealing with chaos and so aren't going to be allowed anywhere safe other than where they are now.

Unless you believe it to be an illusion, but I see nothing that implies that. There's physical contact with the illusion, we can sense it in the winds, etc.
 
I wonder what the barrier Borek walked through looks like from the inside?
ReImagined said:
Mind, I'm not saying that we shouldn't suggest both (or more) currently leading actions, and I would love to solve the mystery here. I just legitimately don't see how we could convince anybody else that staying around to get more information is worth risking their lives when there's already a perilous return journey and crucial information to report.
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Historyman14 said:
Trying to stay and get more information right now is asking for trouble for everyone.

We should leave while we're ahead of the game, ahead of...whatever Karak Dum has done, and tell everyone, the Empire, Karaz Ankor, Hades, even Ulthuan and everyone in-between about what we just say while we still can.
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The beastmen should, by all accounts, have attacked already. That they haven't done so means that something screwy is afoot, but more to the point indicates that they won't leave their forest, presumably by design.
 
Abhorsen said:
What do people to hope to gain by investigating other than satisfying their curiosity? This still remains an open question to me. I don't see how the dwarves can be rescued, as they have been dealing with chaos and so aren't going to be allowed anywhere safe other than where they are now.

Unless you believe it to be an illusion, but I see nothing that implies that. There's physical contact with the illusion, we can sense it in the winds, etc.
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I rather suspect that Dum has at least some stuff that they'd like to pass onto the Karaz Ankor. And an explanation, whilst horrifying, is likely to be less horrifying than the immediate assumption that they've fallen to Chaos outright.

Also, confirming that the Waystone is stable and isn't going to be messed with would be good. Hell, they apparently know a lot about it, maybe they'd be willing to pass some of that knowledge on? They're kickflipping so hard they're slowly ascending into the air already.
 
Abhorsen said:
What do people to hope to gain by investigating other than satisfying their curiosity? This still remains an open question to me. I don't see how the dwarves can be rescued, as they have been dealing with chaos and so aren't going to be allowed anywhere safe other than where they are now.

Unless you believe it to be an illusion, but I see nothing that implies that. There's physical contact with the illusion, we can sense it in the winds, etc.
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I'm mostly interested in figuring out whether this is going to become a bad terrible thing a few years/decades/centuries down the line. Could be that Dum Dwarfs are still fighting for Order, and will be for centuries; could be they fell to Chaos, and will be joining up the new Everchosen in like 20 years.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The beastmen should, by all accounts, have attacked already. That they haven't done so means that something screwy is afoot, but more to the point indicates that they won't leave their forest, presumably by design.
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Mathilde is undoubtedly interested in the answer. My question was how do we get Snorri and the others to be interested? Is poking around until we find something that does make them attack, or meeting more Kurgan that have a 16% chance to attack on sight, or otherwise staying in the Chaos Wastes, worth it to Snorri, Joerg, or Ruprecht?
 
consequences said:
Knowledge of the depth and the urgency of the required Grudge. Or to be less Dawi about it, how hard various panic buttons are going to need to be hit and how soon.
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Given it's in the wastes, it doesn't seem to be an urgent problem to me, but that's a fair point. What about investigating on the way back? We can ask the local Kurgan tribes, and also ask the survivors of Dum once we are home. There's no need to look here.

Also, as a side venture we could send another chaos tribe at them by stealing the cup then planting a false trail to the beastmen. I mean, they'll obviously die, but might as well.
 
I have no idea what is going on, and I haven't followed the conversation.

Do we have a concensus right now? I very much want to investigate further.
 
I'm just not seeing any path forward here. Even excluding Morghur, we'd have to sneak past a horde of Beastmen through their own forest, hopefully not get killed at Dum itself, and make it back. As for the illusion or golem or whatever theories, we have absolutely nothing to back that idea up. Mathilde, with her masterful Windsight, fully believes what she's looking at is real. We need to treat it as real, because doing otherwise will get us killed.
 
You know, if the MR of Kingship on their ancestral crown is responsible for this, a neat explanation of how it happened could be that Morghur himself put it on after kicking the shit out of KD. Bam, eight thousand years of Dwarven Kings slam into his fragile psyche and take over.
 
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Aranfan said:
I have no idea what is going on, and I haven't followed the conversation.

Do we have a concensus right now? I very much want to investigate further.
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The action consensus is investigate. Theory consensus is this:

[] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
Aranfan said:
I have no idea what is going on, and I haven't followed the conversation.

Do we have a concensus right now? I very much want to investigate further.
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The thread is mostly split between people thinking Morghur is real and Borek just let him caress him like a lover/family member, or that it's a Runesmith disguised as Morghur - possibly via real mutations - to convince other beastmen to defend the Karak as though it were a herdstone.

JamesShazbond said:
I'm just not seeing any path forward here. Even excluding Morghur, we'd have to sneak past a horde of Beastmen through their own forest, hopefully not get killed at Dum itself, and make it back. As for the illusion or golem or whatever theories, we have absolutely nothing to back that idea up. Mathilde, with her masterful Windsight, fully believes what she's looking at is real. We need to treat it as real, because doing otherwise will get us killed.
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Borek walked in just fine! This is apparently not an issue.
 
Aranfan said:
I have no idea what is going on, and I haven't followed the conversation.

Do we have a concensus right now? I very much want to investigate further.
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Theories are conjectures on what happened that Mathilde will share with the Expedition council. Actions are proposals for what to do, in the same vein.

Consensus for actions seems to be at minimum gathering more information, and turning back, while theories tend to agree that KD is probably alive but resorted to extreme ends to survive.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
You know, if the MR of Kingship on their ancestral crown is responsible for this, a neat explanation of how it happened could be that Morghur himself put it on after kicking the shit out of KD. Bam, eight thousand years of Dwarven Kings slam into his fragile psyche and take over.
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From how Borek acted it seems that this is something caused by dwarfs.
 
tapkomet said:
I'm mostly interested in figuring out whether this is going to become a bad terrible thing a few years/decades/centuries down the line. Could be that Dum Dwarfs are still fighting for Order, and will be for centuries; could be they fell to Chaos, and will be joining up the new Everchosen in like 20 years.
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I mean, does it matter? Even if the are, we can't do anything about it.
Andres110 said:
Going by this video, it seems that the Beastmen are an ambush faction, so they're probably just waiting for us to attack them like the Kurgan have.
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The boneyard outside of the forest says otherwise.
Deathbybunnies said:
I rather suspect that Dum has at least some stuff that they'd like to pass onto the Karaz Ankor. And an explanation, whilst horrifying, is likely to be less horrifying than the immediate assumption that they've fallen to Chaos outright.

Also, confirming that the Waystone is stable and isn't going to be messed with would be good. Hell, they apparently know a lot about it, maybe they'd be willing to pass some of that knowledge on? They're kickflipping so hard they're slowly ascending into the air already.
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Taking anything from a faction that is chaosy is never worth it. Just look at what's happened in quest with things that might originate from chaos sources, like the ax or Mathilde's papers until she explained. People who are smarter than us didn't trust those things for a second and held them at arms length until they knew more.
 
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