Pit of Shades is an apprentice level excercise?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It's colored magic, as far as the elves are concerned it's part of the apprenticeship in learning High Magic, well either that or dilettantes.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
So he agrees with Cython that the only value of a language is in it's utility then? Someone should tell him. From far away
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To thread, social action idea:
[ ] You have recently found out that you have the esteem of the dwarves to the point that your best friend has had a Grudge levied against him. Go to your mutual friend Hedi and get very drunk.
- Location
- Sweden
I'd say trusting future caretakers is equal to trusting future apprentices' of your apprentices.
It is all about doing it like the college of magic, with mechanism of self checking each other and only trusting the most trustworthy with the greatest knowledge.
Heck, what if Bok or a derivivative could be put in charge as a first line of security? That's a construct still asking for ID from Kragg.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The Boon is from Belegar, not the Dwarfs as a whole. They have no reason to go along with it.
Asking him to accomplish something that he can't would break him.
Rereading my post, and... Actually kind made me curious about the idea of asking for a "research institute" or "DARPA" from the Transcendent Boon, rather than "Just get me the biggest and best damn library ever, man" for the boon. (On this page here, was some of the relevant stuff, after a quick search.)
Some mix of research, library, and support. Because then, we can use it for research support for our own efforts (for things like Waystones or Karak Mapping Project or whatever else we may want).
A bigass library would also be of aid to that, sure. But like... It would provide us with a library. It'd provide us with the usual bonus that we get from a library. But, it wouldn't provide us with manpower or researchers or support or anything.
And just using our Empire Great Deeds to make a satellite campus or research institution is... Well, the problem with that is that we'd have to do a ton of legwork for it. More-so than if we used the Dwarf Transcendent Boon on it.
Because you're not describing a "Make me the Library of Alexandria, make me the best damn library ever" Boon. You're describing a "Get me the secret and hoarded knowledge of every craftsman ever" Boon.
Kind of like the difference between asking Belegar to "Build be an epic flying boat/I want an awesome Land Dreadnaught, after seeing those Steam-Wagons of Borek's Expedition" versus "Swear to defend and aid the Empire as best you can." One is a finite and concrete target, and one which Dwarfs are even well-disposed to figuring out and doing, even. The other would break Belegar to achieve, because he'd likely just get his Clan and Hold killed trying to do it; because he'd pick fights to defend the Empire against enemies and dangers and threats for the next millenium, and his people would dwindle doing that.
An epic library is something that is both nice and functionally achievable for Dwarfs, and fits nicely in the types of niches that Dwarfs have. Because, well, all -- "all" -- a library requires is to track down and get permission and to copy down every book available for copying or purchasing. It is, in essence, a mere concentration of something that already exists; books.
Asking to track down and get every person and craftsman to willingly divulge their secrets? And to build an organization that would successfully safeguard those secrets? And be able to unfailingly judge and decide who meets the standards of being allowed to get those secrets? And then convince all the people you are trying to get to spill their secrets that you have managed all this?
I don't even know what to call this amalgamation of a half dozen different things... It's trying to do too many things, several of them way too hard, and would not be very effective even if it came true.
Because, again, let's refer back to the example I gave of Mathilde.
Mathilde's own knowledge and expertise should be included in this organization/guild/group/library/institution. What are the standards and arguments do you want Belegar to use, to convince Mathilde to share her knowledge -- all of her knowledge -- and what are the systems, oaths, people, rules, laws, and traditions, that you imagine Belegar will need to create in order to satisfy Mathilde that the secrets she divulges will, indeed, only become known to the worthy?
Because it sounds like you'd also be asking Belegar to come up with an organization that would need to know incredibly deeply into the very topics of the people it reaches out to; because in order to gauge the answer to "Would Mathilde consider this person worthy?" they'd need to know a shitton about Magic, Grey Magic, being a Grey Wizard, being a spy, and etc.
I was pointing out that Mathilde held secrets like the Secrets of Dhar, of Necromancy and Necromantic spells. Also secrets of Morr and of Gazul; so many secrets about the soul, from two races. Of possessing Ranald's Coin, and what it's abilities are. Of secrets about Waystones. Secrets about Apparitions.
And all of those would fall under the aggregate agglomeration of "Mathilde's knowledge, what makes her as successful and skilled as she is at her Craft."
So how would you get Mathilde to part with all that knowledge?
How would you set up the systems that would correctly judge whether an appellant is deserving of that knowledge?
Now, I know that you can easily point out "But most of that stuff's not Grey Wizard Stuff knowledge, it's just... Mathilde knowledge!" Problem is, that that applies just as much to everybody else that you're going to ask to divulge their secrets and crafts and information and stuff.
Something like "Make me the Library of Alexandra" is simple and straightforward. Something like "Knowledge and expertise is being lost; come up with a system such that people will be willing to record their secrets" is a lot less simple. As, keep in mind, my initial post was in support of @TalonofAnathrax who was quoting and responding to a post by Deathbybunnies.
Which is a bit amusing because -- well, what if he sets literally impossible standards? Ones that make you go "Okay, now give me a real answer please." and him to go "That is the real answer." Your request kind of flounders then. Because, sure, you got Kragg to give an answer to what he'd consider adequate to take an apprentice for. The problem is that it is utterly impossible for Belegar to work out a way to meet those standards by finding the right Dwarf for those standards. Sooo.
Some mix of research, library, and support. Because then, we can use it for research support for our own efforts (for things like Waystones or Karak Mapping Project or whatever else we may want).
A bigass library would also be of aid to that, sure. But like... It would provide us with a library. It'd provide us with the usual bonus that we get from a library. But, it wouldn't provide us with manpower or researchers or support or anything.
And just using our Empire Great Deeds to make a satellite campus or research institution is... Well, the problem with that is that we'd have to do a ton of legwork for it. More-so than if we used the Dwarf Transcendent Boon on it.
No, that's why it's (IMO) a bad expectation of what you would get out of a library boon.
Because you're not describing a "Make me the Library of Alexandria, make me the best damn library ever" Boon. You're describing a "Get me the secret and hoarded knowledge of every craftsman ever" Boon.
Kind of like the difference between asking Belegar to "Build be an epic flying boat/I want an awesome Land Dreadnaught, after seeing those Steam-Wagons of Borek's Expedition" versus "Swear to defend and aid the Empire as best you can." One is a finite and concrete target, and one which Dwarfs are even well-disposed to figuring out and doing, even. The other would break Belegar to achieve, because he'd likely just get his Clan and Hold killed trying to do it; because he'd pick fights to defend the Empire against enemies and dangers and threats for the next millenium, and his people would dwindle doing that.
An epic library is something that is both nice and functionally achievable for Dwarfs, and fits nicely in the types of niches that Dwarfs have. Because, well, all -- "all" -- a library requires is to track down and get permission and to copy down every book available for copying or purchasing. It is, in essence, a mere concentration of something that already exists; books.
Asking to track down and get every person and craftsman to willingly divulge their secrets? And to build an organization that would successfully safeguard those secrets? And be able to unfailingly judge and decide who meets the standards of being allowed to get those secrets? And then convince all the people you are trying to get to spill their secrets that you have managed all this?
I don't even know what to call this amalgamation of a half dozen different things... It's trying to do too many things, several of them way too hard, and would not be very effective even if it came true.
Because, again, let's refer back to the example I gave of Mathilde.
Mathilde's own knowledge and expertise should be included in this organization/guild/group/library/institution. What are the standards and arguments do you want Belegar to use, to convince Mathilde to share her knowledge -- all of her knowledge -- and what are the systems, oaths, people, rules, laws, and traditions, that you imagine Belegar will need to create in order to satisfy Mathilde that the secrets she divulges will, indeed, only become known to the worthy?
Because it sounds like you'd also be asking Belegar to come up with an organization that would need to know incredibly deeply into the very topics of the people it reaches out to; because in order to gauge the answer to "Would Mathilde consider this person worthy?" they'd need to know a shitton about Magic, Grey Magic, being a Grey Wizard, being a spy, and etc.
That's not the only, or even main, point that I was making.
I was pointing out that Mathilde held secrets like the Secrets of Dhar, of Necromancy and Necromantic spells. Also secrets of Morr and of Gazul; so many secrets about the soul, from two races. Of possessing Ranald's Coin, and what it's abilities are. Of secrets about Waystones. Secrets about Apparitions.
And all of those would fall under the aggregate agglomeration of "Mathilde's knowledge, what makes her as successful and skilled as she is at her Craft."
So how would you get Mathilde to part with all that knowledge?
How would you set up the systems that would correctly judge whether an appellant is deserving of that knowledge?
Now, I know that you can easily point out "But most of that stuff's not Grey Wizard Stuff knowledge, it's just... Mathilde knowledge!" Problem is, that that applies just as much to everybody else that you're going to ask to divulge their secrets and crafts and information and stuff.
Something like "Make me the Library of Alexandra" is simple and straightforward. Something like "Knowledge and expertise is being lost; come up with a system such that people will be willing to record their secrets" is a lot less simple. As, keep in mind, my initial post was in support of @TalonofAnathrax who was quoting and responding to a post by Deathbybunnies.
Also, I'd forgotten that the initial post mentioned "Get Kragg to outline the insane standards he'd require."
Which is a bit amusing because -- well, what if he sets literally impossible standards? Ones that make you go "Okay, now give me a real answer please." and him to go "That is the real answer." Your request kind of flounders then. Because, sure, you got Kragg to give an answer to what he'd consider adequate to take an apprentice for. The problem is that it is utterly impossible for Belegar to work out a way to meet those standards by finding the right Dwarf for those standards. Sooo.
I think it's the opposite. For the elves, every significant thought and action is divine, an act of worship to/taking on the nature of/being part of the god in question. If everything has a divine nature, then it's not something sacred in a way that would be profaned by being shared.
Magic would be no different to teaching swordsmanship, or indeed, the products of mundane crafts are in their own way crafted with a divine blessing.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Again I would like to remid people that Library idea was for humanity not for dwarfs who already have libraries of their own. Humans who has a habit of losing books and knowladge after every war not Dawi.
More to point trying to get secrets out of craftsman is a dangerious thing what happens when some of those secrets falls in to wrong hands because of this? For example do you want to risk entire engineering guild going slayer in one stroke?
More to point trying to get secrets out of craftsman is a dangerious thing what happens when some of those secrets falls in to wrong hands because of this? For example do you want to risk entire engineering guild going slayer in one stroke?
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Warmach1ne32
Machine of War and Quests
- Location
- Indonesia
little, during the Ranaldite portion
also in the Ranaldite portion
For the people aiming for High Magic, color magic is only the first step. But those are basically the LM equivalent of the Elves, and they do have people who specialise in one color.
Those are the dilettantes yeah, something like perpetual apprentices
- Location
- Greece
Thanks, fixed among with some other typos.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I don't think that's the right metaphor here? The Everqueen herself has a whole tradition of Ghyran users around her, the Caledorans have Aqshy users associated with their dragons, and there's the Mist Mages and Shadow Warriors.
There's a ton of non-Qhaysh traditions that use the Winds on Ulthuan.
- Location
- France
This.
I've also just realized that asking for that would involve asking Belegar to go far beyond his immediate authority and start pissing contests with every Dwarf Guild at once. Not great.
- Location
- Finland
The problem with trusting a librarian to judge who is worthy of the knowledge you are unable to teach an apprentice (because you have not found a worthy one), is that to do that you basicly need to teach them as you would an apprentice, and at that point you might as well teach an apprentice.
I think -- at least in Divided Loyalties -- Humans and High Elves just... do magic different.
High Magic, Qhaysh, should not be seen as the "Obvious, red carpet rolled out, endgoal" for Human magic achievements/endeavors/goals.
Because the height of human magics is achieved in a singular wind.
People are tunnel-visioned on it, but... "How get High Magic?" "You can't, and, evidence seem to hint or imply that, perhaps, you shouldn't even..." "Okay but how High Magic tho?"
Do you want to achieve god-like heights of magic, and achieve world-striding feats of magic? Well, buckle up and prepare for having to do it while being a mono-Wind spellcaster.
Because. Human magic, human spellcasting... is doing magic in such a way that it attunes, aligns, and transmutates, your soul into that Aspect or Facet of the Aethyr.
Even if you could do High Magic somehow, well... Let me use an example or metaphor.
It would be like a human thinking that the heights of magic any human should reach and strive for is to... become a Runesmith like the Dwarfs.
The trouble is, even if you managed it, it would only be good for a flex and to make people's eyes pop out of their heads. Yeah, sure, you become a Journeyman or Master Runesmith. That's great. No human has ever done that before. People didn't think it was even possible, for a variety of cultural, racial, metaphysical, and divine, reasons. ... Unfortunately, you're, kind of... Still not objectively amazing by Runesmith standards? Also, this still doesn't make you the best human spellcaster. It makes you the best human-who-uses-Dwarf-magic-spellcaster.
It's a notable deed, sure. But you haven't reached the heights of human achievements. You've just, weirdly and amusingly, decided to go off on a tangent and flex over two whole races (humand and dwarfs both).
So anyway, what I'm saying is...
High Magic is not required for world-changing feats, or "Playing around at the 'real high end' and 'actually mattering' on a setting level." It is not, in fact, the thing that you Have To reach in order to Really be Actually Relevant(TM).
Fundamentally, it seems to me, like, human magic in Divided Loyalties is about transforming and aligning the soul.
BoneyM told us that humans have Spell Masteries, and that Elfs don't.
I think that that is a very big clue in 'what' magic is 'like' in this quest's canon.
So, temper your expectations accordingly. And temper your ambitions and goals accordingly.
... It also neatly explains why Teclis taught and arranged the Colleges the way that he did; because humans align themselves to a facet of the Aethyr. So he had a choice of either getting the humans to align themselves to a single Wind, or getting them to align themselves to some kind of singular Lore of Sigmar (the Chief Deity of the Empire) the way there's a Lore of the Widow or a Lore of Nehekhara.
He could have tried to pull together a ton of Divine Spellcasting traditions, and get the humans to align their souls to those divinities. Or he could have tried to suddenly crash-create, from scratch, a "Lore of the Empire" and to pidgeon-hole every Wizard into being locked into that Lore.
He didn't -- couldn't -- have done that. He didn't have the power to scratch-create a single Lore to meet the whole needs of the Empire, to meet the cultural acceptance of the Empire, and all the other things and etc etc.
Instead, he decided to gift humanity with breadth and with advanced knowledge.
He gave humanity the 8 Winds of Magic because of a combination of many Standing-on-the-shoulders-of-Giants factors; the factor of having all the requisite knowledge from Ulthuan; the factor of having several native traditions in the Empire that already more or less held to a single wind; and the fact that this way, he could give a ton of width to the Empire's newly-organized magic traditions.
The Colleges, and the 8 Orders, were, indeed, a gift of Teclis. Sheer strategic breadth and flexibility of 8 Winds. Bolstered by millennia of Ulthuan's own knowledge.
And if he couldn't figure out a way to make Elementalism work, that's because he couldn't figure out a way to make Elementalism work.
Where was he supposed to pull the 10 millennia of AncientEgyptian Ulthuani Elementalism knowledge from? His ass? The Archmages of the Tower of Hoeth probably did Elementalism by using Cardinal winds or using High Magic; the heck was he supposed to do to transpose that to humanity? "Just do it like we do; by learning multiple Winds first"? It wouldn't work for a human, because it would drive them insane, or take too long. So, he doesn't have the Ancient Ulthuani Elementalist knowledge. He'd have to rely on the native traditions. And those don't have enough knowledge. Not enough for him to really revolutionize and boost-from-'cottage industry equivalent' that the Empire's magics were before.
Do the Colleges of Magic miss out on some things that human magic can do? Yes, because humans can also do divine magic, and can do Lores of Magic. But Teclics didn't not have an infinite amount of Lores of Magic to share; only 8.
Here's the thing, though...
And the Elementalist facet, too.
And they're developing and unlocking Masteries, too. The unique and personal flairs to magic use that humans have.
So.
Even as sort-of-pidgeonholed as the Colleges of Magic were, by necessity and shortness of time and so on... ... Even then, humans were not going to be content to remain in the starter area. Heck, it wouldn't even have really been possible forcefully keep them so; because humans would have pushed the envelope of what 8 Winds Magic can do just by practicing 8 Winds Magic. Because of the spell masteries, and the transformation and alignment of their souls with the Wind.
High Magic, Qhaysh, should not be seen as the "Obvious, red carpet rolled out, endgoal" for Human magic achievements/endeavors/goals.
Because the height of human magics is achieved in a singular wind.
People are tunnel-visioned on it, but... "How get High Magic?" "You can't, and, evidence seem to hint or imply that, perhaps, you shouldn't even..." "Okay but how High Magic tho?"
Do you want to achieve god-like heights of magic, and achieve world-striding feats of magic? Well, buckle up and prepare for having to do it while being a mono-Wind spellcaster.
Because. Human magic, human spellcasting... is doing magic in such a way that it attunes, aligns, and transmutates, your soul into that Aspect or Facet of the Aethyr.
Even if you could do High Magic somehow, well... Let me use an example or metaphor.
It would be like a human thinking that the heights of magic any human should reach and strive for is to... become a Runesmith like the Dwarfs.
The trouble is, even if you managed it, it would only be good for a flex and to make people's eyes pop out of their heads. Yeah, sure, you become a Journeyman or Master Runesmith. That's great. No human has ever done that before. People didn't think it was even possible, for a variety of cultural, racial, metaphysical, and divine, reasons. ... Unfortunately, you're, kind of... Still not objectively amazing by Runesmith standards? Also, this still doesn't make you the best human spellcaster. It makes you the best human-who-uses-Dwarf-magic-spellcaster.
It's a notable deed, sure. But you haven't reached the heights of human achievements. You've just, weirdly and amusingly, decided to go off on a tangent and flex over two whole races (humand and dwarfs both).
So anyway, what I'm saying is...
High Magic is not required for world-changing feats, or "Playing around at the 'real high end' and 'actually mattering' on a setting level." It is not, in fact, the thing that you Have To reach in order to Really be Actually Relevant(TM).
Fundamentally, it seems to me, like, human magic in Divided Loyalties is about transforming and aligning the soul.
BoneyM told us that humans have Spell Masteries, and that Elfs don't.
I think that that is a very big clue in 'what' magic is 'like' in this quest's canon.
So, temper your expectations accordingly. And temper your ambitions and goals accordingly.
... It also neatly explains why Teclis taught and arranged the Colleges the way that he did; because humans align themselves to a facet of the Aethyr. So he had a choice of either getting the humans to align themselves to a single Wind, or getting them to align themselves to some kind of singular Lore of Sigmar (the Chief Deity of the Empire) the way there's a Lore of the Widow or a Lore of Nehekhara.
He could have tried to pull together a ton of Divine Spellcasting traditions, and get the humans to align their souls to those divinities. Or he could have tried to suddenly crash-create, from scratch, a "Lore of the Empire" and to pidgeon-hole every Wizard into being locked into that Lore.
He didn't -- couldn't -- have done that. He didn't have the power to scratch-create a single Lore to meet the whole needs of the Empire, to meet the cultural acceptance of the Empire, and all the other things and etc etc.
Instead, he decided to gift humanity with breadth and with advanced knowledge.
He gave humanity the 8 Winds of Magic because of a combination of many Standing-on-the-shoulders-of-Giants factors; the factor of having all the requisite knowledge from Ulthuan; the factor of having several native traditions in the Empire that already more or less held to a single wind; and the fact that this way, he could give a ton of width to the Empire's newly-organized magic traditions.
The Colleges, and the 8 Orders, were, indeed, a gift of Teclis. Sheer strategic breadth and flexibility of 8 Winds. Bolstered by millennia of Ulthuan's own knowledge.
And if he couldn't figure out a way to make Elementalism work, that's because he couldn't figure out a way to make Elementalism work.
Where was he supposed to pull the 10 millennia of Ancient
Do the Colleges of Magic miss out on some things that human magic can do? Yes, because humans can also do divine magic, and can do Lores of Magic. But Teclics didn't not have an infinite amount of Lores of Magic to share; only 8.
Here's the thing, though...
... The Colleges of Magic are researching heavily into the Mystical facet of the Winds of Magic.
And the Elementalist facet, too.
And they're developing and unlocking Masteries, too. The unique and personal flairs to magic use that humans have.
So.
Even as sort-of-pidgeonholed as the Colleges of Magic were, by necessity and shortness of time and so on... ... Even then, humans were not going to be content to remain in the starter area. Heck, it wouldn't even have really been possible forcefully keep them so; because humans would have pushed the envelope of what 8 Winds Magic can do just by practicing 8 Winds Magic. Because of the spell masteries, and the transformation and alignment of their souls with the Wind.
- Location
- Australia
@BoneyM I found some cool stuff and it's from Warhammer: Monstrous Arcanum, which, after a lot of searching, I've determined is definitely a WFB supplement. (Top search is for the Age of Sigmar variant which also has two of these things, but there is a WFB Monstrous Arcanum written by Alan Bligh with the official Games Workshop logo on it.) If you think they'd fit in Divided Loyalties, is there an Ulgu version of them?
<Incarnate Elemental of Fire>
<Incarnate Elemental of Beasts>
<Incarnate Elemental of Death>
<Incarnate Elemental of Fire>
<Incarnate Elemental of Beasts>
<Incarnate Elemental of Death>
I think you are focusing a bit hard on the notion that there is a magic specific to each sort of being. Dhar was arguably Druchi magic, until Nagash a human said I can do that better. The Blood cauldrons of Khaine were also a Druchi means of attaining immorality and then Neferata said 'hold my horribly decadent beverage' and she became the first vampire, doing the immortality game better than them.
It is and there is, but the knowledge is restricted to a handful of the most trusted Battle Wizards. It's not only very dangerous, it's also bad PR. It unsettles people and tends to cause the word 'daemon' to come up a lot.
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We could probably justify access if we were planning to go deeper into the chaos wastes again? I don't really want to do that tho
I thing incarnates are an area of study that would make the college nervous, no matter how limited.
- Location
- Finland
I assume they are meant to look threatening.
But somehow only thing i can think of when looking at them, is "damn they look so happy".
I just want to offer them a treats and pet them.
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- Location
- Oklahoma
As far as I can find as far as quest goes, is how Humans can achieve high magic, its rather a matter of time/training that humans have problems with. The base training Teclis gave humans were apprentice level exercises for elves, so the base is there but it's veered off into its own thing because Humans don't have multiple millenia to master magic