Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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Why would the daemons head to the village we just evacuated?
Well, at least if they know about that. If they can't sense that there are no souls there to sacrifice that would be understandable.
They don't have any sort of long-range soul-radar, they'd be heading to population centers based on their own knowledge or from following things like roads and fields. If they do so and find one empty they're definitely going to raze it to the ground out of frustration and spite.
That's just the wrong way around. Fortifying the entrance likely forces the daemons to trickle out to attack us as they need to pass through choke points. If we set up far away they can bringing their entire force out and then form up into fighting order.
If we want to split their forces we want to fortify at the entrance, as that's the only way we can prevent them just reforming.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Yea we need those to reach Dum so we can potentially save a dwarven population from chaos maybe, we have a Karak right here and frankly they're gigantic land ships their armour is thick they're bristling with cannons and we'll be fighting into a choke point. Just because Borek fears losing them doesn't mean it's reasonable. Fighting with out the steam wagons is obviously worse for no real gain.
If the expedition has a change of goals because of Karak Vlag well so what?
Indeed, fighting at the main entrance means dealing with the chaos forces piece meal, fighting them on the road means they have ample time to form up and simply come at us however they want.
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TimEd
Meteor maker
Not only do they not have Soul Radar, we would also have the advantage of knowing where these demons will be coming from. If any bypass an already specifically mentioned Chokepoint (even with hypermobile scouting force + Fliers), then that means incompetence or luck is in play and no amount of planning makes any difference.
Unknown number of hidden entrances.
Dwarves already know that an enemy fortifying their entrance would force them in a chokepoint of their main entrance.
And it was already stated in the chapter that the hidden entrances are not hidden to those already inside.
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If we fortify the road we are giving Chaos ample time to turn their full forces to wipe out any dwarfs still inside. Wouldn't that be cruel irony, brought back to the material realm only to have the spiteful chaos forces wipe you out since they don't have anything to lose anymore since Daemonic Instability would get them anyway?
If that's what they want to spend their limited time in reality doing, there's not really a way to stop them. Trying to storm the Karak would be giving up a lot of the Expedition's advantages - Asarnil, cavalry, cannons - and would probably be suicide.
TimEd
Meteor maker
If they could do that before, then a few days (time it takes for them to dissipate) wpuld not matter.
And even if we fortify outside, we certainly are NEVER going to sally inside a hostile demon infested karak. So it makes zero difference to those hypothetical dwarves.
edit: even got Eshin'd by qm
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
[X] Fortify the Karak entrance, but keep the steam-wagons disengaged.
[X] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
[X] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
And since these are Slanneshi Daemons, probably because burning buildings are artistically pleasing.
What? That sounds weird to me? The "if we want to split their forces, fortify at the entrance" bit especially, I mean.
If we fortify at the entrance... Well, let me ask you something. If there's a Greater Daemon in Vlag, or a Chaos Dragon or Chaos Giant or something... How long would it take it to attack us? Very very quickly, if we're in front of the gates.
How long would take that Greater Daemon or Dragon or Giant to make it to us, if we are 100 miles away instead?
*They have to send out runners and sacrifice-grabbers on the road
*These runners have to encounter the fortified group on the road
*They then send a runner back to the Karak, or use magic to send a message back, or something
*The Greater Daemon or Dragon or whatever, has to decide to come out and attack on its own, or send more forces, or send everyone at once, or what
*The Greater Daemon then has to make it all the way over to this road barricade place
*Maybe instead all of the Daemons, or a huge amount of them, will rush out onto the road as soon as Vlag is brought back
(I personally doubt that, as I think they'd be keeping some guys back in the Karak. Whereas if we park ourselves in front of the Karak, they can throw all of their forces at us if they want to.)
If we park ourselves at the gates, the Balrog of Vlag can come out right away, as soon as it knows what it is dealing with. And it will know what it is dealing with much faster, since we're on their doorstep.
The Daemons have a much shorter line of command and control, if we're right at the Karak's gates. If they have a giant, or daemon-artillery, or normal artillery, or whatever, then they can easily throw those troops at us.
So the question is...
How good a fortification spot is it, really? Is it a good enough spot to make up for the distance the Daemons will have to travel if they have to face us on the road?
With sufficient Dwarfpower and prep time, any fortification spot is a good fortification spot.
Fair point. If we are not going to save any dwarfs inside anyway then might as well go with this and maximize out mobility advantages.
[X] Harass the Daemons with cavalry to slow them down enough that they cannot reach population centers in time.
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Good enough that Snorri and Mathilde could hold it for a bit on their own.
With Gotrek working on making the fortifications better while Mathilde goes looking for the Waystone any Daemon will get introduced to Gotri's grapeshots, canons, Ranger Arrows and Dragon Fire before they even make it into melee.
[X]Fortify the Karak entrance, but keep the steam-wagons disengaged.
[X] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
[X] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
tapkomet
Senātus Populusque Rōmānus
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[X] Fortify the Karak entrance with the steam-wagons.
I'm going to guess that anything likely to wreck the wagons is also likely to inflict significant casualties on our force without the wagons. If we lose 1 wagon to poor luck, we can tell a few of the Dwarf Engineers and Rangers to head back home since they don't fit in. If we lose more than 1, that's probably because we fought something massive that would have killed half the Expedition if they didn't lay into the wagon.
Downside, of course, is that something absolutely massive emerges from Karak Vlag that we can't beat it, and we have the wagons in fortified positions, it'll be harder to retreat, but our forces are quite strong, so I suspect that's fairly unlikely.
I'm going to guess that anything likely to wreck the wagons is also likely to inflict significant casualties on our force without the wagons. If we lose 1 wagon to poor luck, we can tell a few of the Dwarf Engineers and Rangers to head back home since they don't fit in. If we lose more than 1, that's probably because we fought something massive that would have killed half the Expedition if they didn't lay into the wagon.
Downside, of course, is that something absolutely massive emerges from Karak Vlag that we can't beat it, and we have the wagons in fortified positions, it'll be harder to retreat, but our forces are quite strong, so I suspect that's fairly unlikely.
Not what I meant. That's not fortification, that's just the front doors.
And that was when they sent 6 daemonettes at a time, through the front door, in a rush. Instead of using any of the secret exits (which they'd be able to see from the inside of the Karak) to mass forces on the outside, before sending them at it.
If they all were coming only through the front doors, which can be held by a dwarf and a human, that'd be silly and entertaining.
The question I'm asking is, how much better are the fortifications we can set up here, and are they worth the ability of the Daemons to have an immediately-fast command loop, and thus able to judge exactly what they are up against, and whether they should get that Daemonic Siege Cannon wheeled out or redirect the Chaos Giant to go smash the group outside the mountain? Whereas if we were setting up on the road, they wouldn't be able to immediately attack us like that.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
You know what the best anti-Greater Demon weapon is in warhammer? Cannons. You know what we have? A bunch of cannons.
I was leaning towards fortifying the road, but if that makes it easier for the daemons to flank us, as opposed to catching them in a bottleneck where we can concentrate our firepower into a devastating, dwarfy killbox, that might be better instead. My concern with fortifying the entrance is that we don't know where the side passages are, so we don't know from what direction reinforcements could come from, potentially hitting us from the rear. Depending on the numbers of deamons inside, fortifying the entrance could lead into a several day battle, whilst if we pick a distance along the road, we could force them to march to us for half a day (or more!), potentially weakening them.
Additionally, if we fortify the road, there's as small chance the demons will ignore the road and scatter into the wilderness, avoiding a battle. Fortifying the entrance forces a battle, and may alert whoever's inside to our plan, whilst fortifying the road may make them think we're retreating, catching them by surprise. We don't want them manifesting whilst we are buliding our fortifications. Also, I assume fortifying the road uses the steam wagons by default, as there is not option not to.
Speaking of which, do we use the steam-wagons? They're incredibly valuable, but also a useful battlefield asset. Is it wise to risk them so early? Can we afford not too? If we don't need them, then using them is a senseless risk, but if we do need them then they are likely to be damaged in the fighting, and adds a potential vulnerability to our defence as we have to focus on shielding them. If committing them backfires, the entire expedition is over, and I don't think Borek would forgive us.
Ultimately, I think there are more reasons not to use the wagons than use them, and if I'm wrong then the expedition is in trouble even if we do use them.
I'm against simply sending a message—not only is it passing the buck onto someone else, but it's also not that interesting a situation. (Besides, we were going to dispatch some wolfriders anyway—not as fast as Mathilda, but the knowledge will get through). I'm also against harassing the daemons. That's putting a big chunk of our forces at risk, with no infantry/artillery/arcane support, and Slaanesh has daemon cavalry too, which could intercept ours and leave the main host unhindered, or even backtrack and hit the expedition whilst our own interceptors are away.
My opinion has swung back and forth whilst writing this, hence why it's a little disjointed. Overall, there are positives to the fortifying the entrance plan—it will bait them into terrain where they lose the advantage of numbers, and lets us secure our flanks. However, the terrain we pick for the road battle could be just as tactically important, and it forces the daemons to come to us as a single bloc, rather than pouring out of the hold in endless waves from potential secret entrances. It also gives us more preptime, more advanced warning of advancing troops and runs a small chance of the demons missing us completely (although we shouldn't count on it). I think fortifying the road nets us more advantages in total.
[x] Fortify the road to Kislev to keep the Daemons isolated from population centers.
Additionally, if we fortify the road, there's as small chance the demons will ignore the road and scatter into the wilderness, avoiding a battle. Fortifying the entrance forces a battle, and may alert whoever's inside to our plan, whilst fortifying the road may make them think we're retreating, catching them by surprise. We don't want them manifesting whilst we are buliding our fortifications. Also, I assume fortifying the road uses the steam wagons by default, as there is not option not to.
Speaking of which, do we use the steam-wagons? They're incredibly valuable, but also a useful battlefield asset. Is it wise to risk them so early? Can we afford not too? If we don't need them, then using them is a senseless risk, but if we do need them then they are likely to be damaged in the fighting, and adds a potential vulnerability to our defence as we have to focus on shielding them. If committing them backfires, the entire expedition is over, and I don't think Borek would forgive us.
Ultimately, I think there are more reasons not to use the wagons than use them, and if I'm wrong then the expedition is in trouble even if we do use them.
I'm against simply sending a message—not only is it passing the buck onto someone else, but it's also not that interesting a situation. (Besides, we were going to dispatch some wolfriders anyway—not as fast as Mathilda, but the knowledge will get through). I'm also against harassing the daemons. That's putting a big chunk of our forces at risk, with no infantry/artillery/arcane support, and Slaanesh has daemon cavalry too, which could intercept ours and leave the main host unhindered, or even backtrack and hit the expedition whilst our own interceptors are away.
My opinion has swung back and forth whilst writing this, hence why it's a little disjointed. Overall, there are positives to the fortifying the entrance plan—it will bait them into terrain where they lose the advantage of numbers, and lets us secure our flanks. However, the terrain we pick for the road battle could be just as tactically important, and it forces the daemons to come to us as a single bloc, rather than pouring out of the hold in endless waves from potential secret entrances. It also gives us more preptime, more advanced warning of advancing troops and runs a small chance of the demons missing us completely (although we shouldn't count on it). I think fortifying the road nets us more advantages in total.
[x] Fortify the road to Kislev to keep the Daemons isolated from population centers.
You know what's an even better answer to a Greater Daemon? Not having to fight a Greater Daemon. Those cannons are just as easily employed on the fortified road, is my point. EDIT: Sorry, a bit confusing... I'm saying, the road option might delay the Greater Daemon attack. And, we'd still have the cannons if/when it attacks. Which means that this is not an argument in favor or fortifying at the gates, basically. Unless the fortification potential at the gates are so much better than at the road that it's obscene.
If we fortify on the front gates, we can be attacked by the Greater Daemon or their artillery, really fast.
If we fortify on the road, the Greater Daemon has to either: have set out with the initial sacrifice-hunting party and thus be part of the initial group; have left any slow-moving units behind; have sent a sacrifice-hunting out, gotten a report back from them, and decided to go there itself, and then managed to make its way there too.
If we fortify in front of the gates, they can send all their forces against us easily and quickly.
If we're doing so on the road, then at least they're more strung out, right?
Unless they have scrying spells or some magic way to tell where we are and that we need to be hit real quick, or they have magic communication with their scouts (i.e. daemonettes, or daemonettes mounted on... I forget, Steeds of Slaanesh, I think? or Furies, which are lesser daemons but are fliers) or etc.
The option I really don't like though, is the "fortify at the gates, but without the Steam-Wagons."
It feels absurdly reckless! If we're going to get hit hard, we'd want the Steam-Wagons to survive.
And if we lose all the forces there, then... the Steam-Wagons are left without the two cavalry screens, without the dragon, without the wizards, without the Slayers. It just has Rangers, probably. It's... The Expedition to Vlag is not having a good time anyway, if that happens.
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