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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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The Old Ones was all prefectionists who caused ton of problems and troubles we're dealing still more than anything else which passed on to the Lizardmen and their own obsession with the Great Plan.

And not actually knowing what the Great Plan was, and even thinking it may be impossible to carry out now.
 
Valmond said:
Sure, and that's why dwarves would probably not sell rifled guns to humans (exceptions existing (eg. Mathilde)), because of guild secrets.
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Ah yes, apologies. Just saying that even if the Dwarven (ignoring their technological secret-keeping) would sell some to humans, humanity still wouldn't be able to replicate them.
 
On the other hand strictly superior guns that can only be used with a supply of bullets that can only be supplied by the gun manufacturer could have a niche in the market.
 
Rafin said:
On the other hand strictly superior guns that can only be used with a supply of bullets that can only be supplied by the gun manufacturer could have a niche in the market.
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And have every gunsmith, engineer, tinkerer, etc, pouring over them 24/7.
Rifling is a major advance in gun technology.
Also, i think humans could do rifling, it would not be as good, or reliable, but they would be able to do something useful enough to be worth the bother.
 
Asheram said:
I reckon rifled guns are far too advanced for the humans to make. You need some pretty tight tolerances, and very standardized bullet manufacturing for it to work as intended.
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Historically, we've got rifled hunting guns made by artisans from the 16th century onwards - but they are expensive to make due to the rifling, and more importantly they take extreme cleaning between shots to prevent fouling of the rifling and because of the poor quality of the powder. You've also go to make sure your bullet grips the rifling on the way in for muzzle loaders. This means that if you ever have to reload it will takes you at least multiple minutes if not longer - so they only really get used as hunting guns for the wealthy. Over time, rifles become cheaper and gunpowder gets more refined, so you get down to being able to equip men with them and have them shoot once a minute (this is about Napoleonic times), but the slow loading problem means they remain hunting/skirmishing weapons until you get Minie Balls and other expanding ammo to let you load rifles at the same speed as smoothbore guns.
 
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BurnNote said:
I don't know enough about engineering to make a judgement there, whether that would be an unacceptable reduction in reliability, given that the design is probably fairly optimised (dwarf cannons are noted as smaller and lighter than the imperial equivalent). Plus there's the cultural factor.

If you modify an inherited cannon, then that's saying you know better than your ancestors. Even if that's true, it's not going to be well regarded. On the other hand, if you modify your own work, then that's saying you made and sold something shoddy, because this isn't just maintenance. Again, something most dwarfs aren't keen to do. So in either case, they'd probably make new ones, unless there is a pressing need to get more improved cannons right now (though it can't be too pressing, or you couldn't afford to take the canon off the front line).
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Engineers tend to be more innovative as a whole - part of Morgirm's domain is innovation. Dwarf engineers might be conservative by human standards but by Dawi cultural norms they're the aggressive progressives.

Another factor is that gunpowder artillery first entered use as the southern holds were being lost so it wouldn't have the same shine as actual Golden Age Ancestor made stuff like runes. The Engineers guild is the only guild in the Karaz Ankor to either get better or at least trade capabilities laterally compared to the Good Old Days, so the Good Old Days aren't as much of a sacred cow (goat?) unlike Runesmiths who lost a lot of lore or miners who lost access to the largest deposits.
 
Early rifles fired spheres of lead the same as smoothbore weapons, and frequently said projectiles would be cast by the guns owner using a portable kit (you can melt lead over a campfire).
The problem with rifling is that you had to use a tight-fitting ball and force it down past the rifling that was trying to grip it, which was even more of a pain in the ass than muzzle loading a smoothbore.
The 'minie ball' was the solution to this problem - it started out smaller than the barrel diameter allowing it to be easily loaded, but when fired it deformed and flattened out causing it to grip the rifling.
 
On the issue of coal being mentioned in some things - even without coal dug out of the ground there's still charcoal, which has basically all the same useful properties and is likely commonly produced in the empire. The original usage of the word coal included sea-coal, char-coal and pit-coal; so any references in WHF to coal can be assumed to mean char-coal unless stated otherwise.
 
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kingreaper said:
On the issue of coal being mentioned in some things - even without coal dug out of the ground there's still charcoal, which has basically all the same useful properties and is likely commonly produced in the empire. The original usage of the word coal included sea-coal, char-coal and pit-coal; so any references in WHF to coal can be assumed to mean char-coal unless stated otherwise.
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In Tamurkhan, it says that the Iron Deamon War Engine is powered by coal dug out of the Zorn Uzkul. I'm pretty sure the writers were talking about literal coal.

(There's also references to coal being the main export of a town in Wissenland in Sigmar's Heirs- it was almost certainly talking about ground-coal, given that the center of charcoal production would be the parts of the Empire that are actually forested)

It doesn't actually matter to the quest- canon is already inconsistent about... everything, so it never following through on the implications in the Lizardmen books isn't anything out of the ordinary.
 
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Mopman43 said:
In Tamurkhan, it says that the Iron Deamon War Engine is powered by coal dug out of the Zorn Uzkul. I'm pretty sure the writers were talking about literal coal.

(There's also references to coal being the main export of a town in Wissenland in Sigmar's Heirs- it was almost certainly talking about ground-coal, given that the center of charcoal production would be the parts of the Empire that are actually forested)

It doesn't actually matter to the quest- canon is already inconsistent about... everything, so it never following through on the implications in the Lizardmen books isn't anything out of the ordinary.
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The more I hear about Warhammer, the more I am reminded why I do not care much about stories with too many chefs and no quality director. (see also: DC, Marvel).

Sure, a few of the chefs may be 3 stars, but you'll never know what you get with each installment and the canon will shot with a cannon even if they are all good.
 
Actually, now it's got me wondering- what do the Chaos Dwarfs power their demon-train with in-quest? I don't think there's a ton of trees to burn for charcoal in the Dark Lands.

Dried Greenskin dung? They stuck a Bale Taurus inside? Some kind of magic-engine?

(it's probably that last one)
 
storryeater said:
The more I hear about Warhammer, the more I am reminded why I do not care much about stories with too many chefs and no quality director. (see also: DC, Marvel).

Sure, a few of the chefs may be 3 stars, but you'll never know what you get with each installment and the canon will shot with a cannon even if they are all good.
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Also a reminder as to why you need a universe bible of dos and don'ts and need to adhere to it... religiously, if you'll forgive the pun.
 
Can't they use chaos magic in order to make biological things into coal under the ground? Like the bodies and souls of their ancestors, buried together with demons and then compressed with unnatural pressure?
 
Rafin said:
Can't they use chaos magic in order to make biological things into coal under the ground? Like the bodies and souls of their ancestors, buried together with demons and then compressed with unnatural pressure?
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I am uncertain if there is anything that you "can't" do with chaos magic. You just can't do anything reliably.
 
storryeater said:
The more I hear about Warhammer, the more I am reminded why I do not care much about stories with too many chefs and no quality director. (see also: DC, Marvel).

Sure, a few of the chefs may be 3 stars, but you'll never know what you get with each installment and the canon will shot with a cannon even if they are all good.
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Ehh, there's different levels of mixing. To extend the metaphore, most of DC/Marvel is single courses, each made by a different chef. If one of them is bad or does match the rest, you can just leave it, though you're overall meal would suffer a bit. Then you have the crossovers, where one course is prepared by a bunch of chefs, which where the individual parts most not only be good, but harmonize.

But I don't think Warhammer falls under either category. It's more like a buffet. If one of the sauces sucks, then maybe your current plate is ruined, but you can just grab a different one and not go near that sauce in the future.
 
BurnNote said:
Ehh, there's different levels of mixing. To extend the metaphore, most of DC/Marvel is single courses, each made by a different chef. If one of them is bad or does match the rest, you can just leave it, though you're overall meal would suffer a bit. Then you have the crossovers, where one course is prepared by a bunch of chefs, which where the individual parts most not only be good, but harmonize.

But I don't think Warhammer falls under either category. It's more like a buffet. If one of the sauces sucks, then maybe your current plate is ruined, but you can just grab a different one and not go near that sauce in the future.
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No, Marvel/DC definitely counts. It is better about it, but it still counts.

I mean, for example, everybody talks about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and deservedly so, but nobody cares about Swamp Thing before or after Alan Moore. Alan Moore practically reinvented the character, (sucks for old swamp thing, even if his was better) but authors following him either tried and failed to miimic him or tried and failed to reinvent it. And each author, including Alan Moore, retconned and even contradicted stuff of previous authors. Its the same with most legendary runs, at best, they crystalise the character in place, a default they return to after each author change, and at worst, they get ignored by succeeding authors that destroy the series, no one being able to write well because they are using a cast another author made great. And that is the good outcome, when a series becomes great. And do not get me started on stupid editorial mandates.

DC and Marvel are better because at least you can follow the chef instead of the restaurant if you know what you are doing (wonder who wrote the articles of magic, I wanna read more of what that guy wrote) , but following any series ends in a heartbreak when the author changes.

Contrast manga and comic series with a constant author (like Invincible, Saga or the Walking Dead) where, even if they turn bad, it is a process rather than cookery. Heck, I imagine its the same with the well known Warhammer novel series (Felix and Gotrek, Ciaphas Cain) having one specific team of chef that works well together or a single chef, although as I haven't researched the subject, I may be proven wrong. I know this quest is good because Boney is a very very good QM who can turn this mess into something interesting, not because it is Warhammer.
 
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storryeater said:
No, Marvel/DC definitely counts. It is better about it, but it still counts.

I mean, for example, everybody talks about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and deservedly so, but nobody cares about Swamp Thing before or after Alan Moore. Alan Moore practically reinvented the character, (sucks for old swamp thing, even if his was better) but authors following him either tried and failed to miimic him or tried and failed to reinvent it. And each author, including Alan Moore, retconned and even contradicted stuff of previous authors. Its the same with most legendary runs, at best, they crystalise the character in place, a default they return to after each author change, and at worst, they get ignored by succeeding authors that destroy the series, no one being able to write well because they are using a cast another author made great. And that is the good outcome, when a series becomes great. And do not get me started on stupid editorial mandates.

DC and Marvel are better because at least you can follow the chef instead of the restaurant if you know what you are doing (wonder who wrote the articles of magic, I wanna read more of what that guy wrote) , but following any series ends in a heartbreak when the author changes.

Contrast manga and comic series with a constant author (like Invincible, Saga or the Walking Dead) where, even if they turn bad, it is a process rather than cookery. Heck, I imagine its the same with the well known Warhammer novel series (Felix and Gotrek, Ciaphas Cain) having one specific team of chef that works well together or a single chef, although as I haven't researched the subject, I may be proven wrong. I know this quest is good because Boney is a very very good QM who can turn this mess into something interesting, not because it is Warhammer.
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I don't disagree that having a consistent direction is a good thing. I just think it's less important for something like Warhammer, which is a setting first and a collection of stories second. And I guess we've also drifted a bit from the original statement, which was more about consistency than quality. Someone can write a great story that breaks a lot of established canon, or write one that gets all the little details correct and still is shit.
 
Honestly, it's been 30 years. 4 RPG editions. 8 tabletop editions. Somewhere north of 900 official books. Not even getting into everything they've put in their magazines.

GW has never really tried to keep everything consistent, but it's also true that, given the above, that'd be basically impossible.


I enjoy the setting well enough on it's own rights. One thing that, I think, makes it suitable for fanworks like this is that there's more than enough for you to play around with. To say the least.

Asheram said:
Books of Magic? Gaiman.
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Articles of Magic. In Warhammer, that Mathilde has to abide by and all that.
 
Just for reference, regarding the rifled dwarfcannon debate:
BoneyM said:
"Nearly!" cries a dwarf hurrying past under a burden of strange, conical metal objects, and you watch him go thoughtfully.

"What are they?" you ask.

"Ammo, of course."

"But the shape-"

"Er, right, you lot still use the round ones. Forget I said anything, won't you? Secrets, and all that." He doesn't seem at all sheepish about it, though. "On an entirely unrelated note, I will share the observation that an arrow flies truer than even a spherical slingstone."
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Whether this is referring to conical shells and hinting at spin stabilised arrows -> rifled cannon rather than towards fin-stabilised projectiles, I don't know. But it could be.
 
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