Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Look at the 'How long can a person survive in cold water?' table over here:

Hypothermia: Understanding and Prevention | Minnesota Sea Grant

History of HypothermiaThe symptoms of hypothermia have been recognized for 2,000 years.7 The human body works best within a very narrow range of body temperature and decline in body temperature leads to a spiral of declining physical and mental ability that can exacerbate cooling, leading to...
I'm sorta having trouble estimating how long dwarves will last in cold water, or even what the water temperature is at this latitude and time of year, But they've got decent chances of not suffocating if they're trapped in an air pocket because the water pressure tends to compress more oxygen into less space and water can absorb carbon dioxide, especially if they're splashing around and increasing the water surface area.
Overall its a bit of a confusing crapshoot to estimate. We know they CAN survive. We don't know if they WILL survive, because ALL the factors involved tend to compound. Hypothermia is a nasty killer but it also kills very slowly, because the closer you are to being dead from hypothermia the slower you die from everything else. Like, if you're bleeding out and you're also freezing to death you die slower than from bleeding out alone without freezing to death. And then theres all the nasty crap in water that can infect wounds.

Hence why regular humans CAN be found alive trapped in sunk boats even a day after the event, but it tends to be very depressing numbers, since you need to beat some harsh odds. Hopefully dwarf durability helps nudge those numbers.
 
While I personally feel like tracking down the bandits, I'm going to make very clear that if push comes to shove, then we are in a perfect position to act as a mediator for Thorgrim to call on the current Emperor, to lean on the Grey College, to get the entire grey college to find out just who was responsible for this attacks, along with the receipts and all.

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We don't need to track them down in person, in fact, we almost benefit in not doing it.
Grudges are called when there's absolutely no doubt about who was behind it.
 
will those we potentially save all go on that berserker thing ? knowledge and expertise will be lost in the end no matter what
Nope, Slayers are for shame, being ambushed in the middle of a safe journey by unknown enemies is not shameful except possibly to the dwarf on watch(for failing to spot it). The ones we save would owe quite the debt of gratitude though.

And possibly would be one of the more reliable ways to aim the grudge - none better than a influential surviving victim's testimony to see it to the right home.
 
Does substance-of-shadowing through a wall into a sealed compartment carry with it the risk of horrible insta-death in this scenario as described previously, @BoneyM ?
If the compartment is still lit inside, Mathilde is no longer in shadow, thus we phase into the wall?

Or, hmm, compared to when this was discussed (say around the March to K8P/Und-Unzgar), has her Magesight maybe improved enough to detect the boundary between light and dark if one exists on the other side of a bulkhead?

Another question, how does Mathilde plan to breathe down there?
"Selectively incorporeal," you reply in a low voice. Whispers travel further than you'd think. "You quickly learn to retain your ability to interact with the air."
 
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The Caged Rat's Freedom
The Caged Rat's Freedom

His steps echoed through the stone passageways as he followed his guide, Lady Magister Weber. It had been slightly surreal for him, to reach the end of his investigation regarding Quirin Waramunt's location. The man who had defined entire fields of study, his outpouring of papers, letters, theorems, and lectures revolutionizing academia's understanding of Dark Land cultures, peoples, and societies. What fed into Dr. Waramunt's mystery and legend, though, is that no one had ever seen him. All of his lectures were done for long-distance classes, and no one, not even the Dean overseeing Dr. Waramunt's classes, has seen the good doctor in person. But that was about to change!

Opening the latest door, Lady Magister Weber gestured him inside the room and he stopped after seeing what was inside. The room was divided in half by bars of metal, creating a sort of cage within the room. Inside of the cage was a well-adorned room and study, almost overflowing with books and papers. But it was the occupant that startled him the most. Thin white fur covered the crouching Skaven as he furiously wrote upon a fine desk of dark wood. Twitching whiskers and ears contrasted the steady and smooth writing as the page was filled. One ear twitched in their direction, and the Skaven's face rose to face them. Two beady cloudy eyes peered out of the face but never centering on either himself or Lady Magister Weber.

"Yes-yes Mathilde, your timing is good. Last page done-complete. But there is another human-thing here, yes-yes?"

"There is Qrech, his name is Detlev Windisch and he has been on quite the journey to find a Dr. Waramunt." Turning to him, she continued, "Detlev Windisch, meet Qrech, also known as Dr. Waramunt."

"Mr. Windisch…," Qrech muttered, "You-you were in my class-lecture… four years ago, yes-yes? You did well-good and your answers showed proper insight-knowledge of the Dark Lands. Unfortunate, then-then that it took you so long to meet me for office hours, yes-yes?"

A sharp chuckle left him before he could stop it, but with a quick cough, he composed himself quickly in the face of Qrech's grin and decided to proceed with his plan even with this unexpected development.

"Well, Dr. Waramunt, I was hoping that you would have some time to chat over tea about your work. I've found your papers and lectures to be very inspiring and I was hoping to talk a little bit more about them."

"Yes-yes," Qrech chittered with pride, "my work is grand-important and I am glad you agree. Alas-unfortunate, but I have no tea to offer and I do not wish to brave the trip to a tea shop-store. But, as long as Mathilde agrees you are certainly welcome in my home-study to talk about my work."

Detlev looked over to Lady Magister Weber who nodded with a small sad smile and with a wave of her hand produced a key that unlocked the door to Qrech's cell. Walking forward to enter, he was surprised that Lady Magister Weber stepped into the room as well. He watched as the woman gently led Qrech to a comfortable chair on one side of the room, gathered a quilt from the bed, and laid it over Qrech. With a chittering sound, a small old dog came bolting from underneath the bed and jumped up on the covered lap.

Taking the chair opposite of Qrech, Detlev watched as Lady Magister Weber gathered the papers on the desk and then walked out of the cell, closed the door, and walked away. A silence descended upon them then. It was difficult to know where to begin, now that he knew that his idol was a Skaven. He supposed… that he came here to learn more about Dr. Waramunt and so that would be a good place to start.

"So," Detlev began, "I must admit some surprise to learn that my professor is a Skaven. How… how did that happen?"

Looking up from petting the dog on his lap, Qrech smiled and told his story. A story of a young Skaven clawing and scrabbling for power and authority amongst the Moulder Clan, of fighting the Chaos Dwarves in the Dark Lands, of coming to Karak Eight Peaks to rid the world of a traitor clan, of betrayal and cruel tortures, and then of his deal with a grey wizard to earn his life at the cost of his freedom. And eventually, his rise through Altdorf's academic world. It was a surprising story, describing a Skaven working with what fate had dealt him to rise high, again and again. There was, however, convenient pieces missing, like what, exactly, he did for Lady Magister Weber.

Then, it was Detlev's turn and at Qrech's insistence, he began to tell of his journey. Of a young academic who trawled through Altdorf's sewers looking for adventure and fleeing from the Skaven he had discovered. Of traveling with a caravan to far off Cathay seeking knowledge and the trials he faced in the Dark Lands. Of returning to Altdorf to plunge himself into learning as much about the Dark Lands as he could. Of reading everything that Dr. Waramunt had wrote and resolving to seek out the infamously mysterious doctor to learn his sources of information. Of the struggles in following the trail of mail and correspondence to eventually discover that Karak Eight Peaks was where it all originated.

And as he talked, a heaviness weighed in the air, as if the world itself was holding its breath. The rune lights seemed to grow a touch darker, a touch somber. Throughout the story, Qrech listened attentively, but every so often his eyes would flutter close. Each time they closed it took a little longer for them to open. Until, somewhere during the story of sneaking into the Altdorf mailroom, Qrech's eyes did not open again. Detlev watched and, with watery eyes and choking throat, continued his story. When his tale was over, he stood up, checked Qrech's pulse and the pulse of the dog on their lap, and then walked out of the unlocked cell, leaving the door open behind them.

Walking through the halls in a daze, Detlev retraced his steps until he found Lady Magister Weber sitting beside a fire in the entrance hall. She appeared to be working on binding a book together, with leather covers and string for the spine. Looking up at his standing form, she smiled a small sad smile.

"Has he passed away?"

He nodded, his throat not letting any words out.

"You have some questions I take it?"

"Why…" he choked out, "why did you keep him here, in a cell?"

"Hmmm… do you know what his final book was titled? The one he completed just before your conversation with him?"

"I… no. How is that relevant?"

"It was titled The Caged Rat's Freedom and it is an autobiography. Likely much of what you discussed is in it, and more. Including his thoughts on freedom, security, joy, and passions."

"What," he whispered, "he wanted to be caged and denied freedom? Is that what you are saying?"

"No," she shook her head sadly, "he did not enjoy being imprisoned. He chaffed at the chains restricting his freedoms, of the bindings which prevented him from finding joy, of the shackles that granted security while denying passions. And that is the crux of the matter." The Lady Magister set the book down, rose, and walked over to the balcony overlooking the caldera and motioned him to stand next to her.

"Qrech faced a dilemma. If he escaped my custody and secured his freedom he would either have to rejoin a society that existed to hone ambition, self-reliance, betrayal, and viciousness or a society that would likely kill him on sight. Should he succeed in reintegrating with his old world, he would live daily in fear of his underlings attempting to usurp his authority and in terror of his superiors making an example of him. Qrech would scrabble for every scrap of authority, every inch of power, and he would die fueling a society that would forget his name within a year. If he attempted to join the wider world, he would be attempting to integrate into societies that hated him and would seek his death without ever knowing who he actually was."

Looking out over the starry skies, Detlev let the words settle in, waiting for the wizard to continue. He wasn't disappointed.

"And so he continued to live under my supervision. If I had been cruel, malicious, or unaccommodating he may have desired freedom enough to try and escape, but I treated him courteously and provided a means to satisfy his ambitions and passions. A means that would never have been his if he had left my custody. And he pursued those ambitions and passions with all the vigor and energy he would have devoted to securing his position should he have been free. Through those efforts, he burned brightly, girded the world to face the darkness, and, I believe, in his own way was proud of what he had done."

"I don't like it."

"I glad you don't. However, it was good of you to come. I would like to believe that you provided some measure of comfort to Qrech in his final moments. He had always wanted to meet one of his students face to face before leaving this world, he liked to call you all 'Living Monuments of his Immortality.'"

So they stood there, looking out at the darkening skies and the twinkling lights of distant stars, the academic who traveled to the edge of the world to meet his teacher and the teacher's warden. Both reminiscing about a teacher who had touched the hearts of a generation of academics and whose knowledge and insight would ripple throughout the world long after his passing.


A/N: A look at what the future might be for Qrech and his passion to become immortal through his words. I hope you enjoy it!
 
Like it.
Though the student is, surprisingly ok with finding out their teacher is a skaven.
I'd assume Mathilde would have prepared them for it, but the story itself does not seem to support this.
Anyone who went through the adventures necessary to convince a Lord Magister to make an exception to the absolute secrecy of the arrangements...well they should be prepared long before then.
 
I was half asleep while writing all this, so sorry if it gets a little preachy. :sad:
It is vitally important that we find the correct people to pin this on. KaK will be less angry if it turns out the Guildmaster is not in fact dead, but if that anger gets aimed in the wrong direction, it doesn't matter that the Grudge is marginally less dire.

[X] Try to track the bandits

I strongly disagree. First off, take a look at King Belegar's orders:
"Barak Varr's reinforcements should arrive by dawn," Belegar says as the gyrocarriage begins its descent. "Our first priority is to make sure that nothing further happens to them. Second is answers. Third is vengeance. Understood?"

Vengence follows answers, and answers is behind preventing further death. You argue that aiming KaK's vengence is most important. But KaK won't try for to avenge a gurdge without a strong grasp of the truth. KaK nurses larger grudges for thousands of years; they do not act impulsively. (Cynically, this would mean no answers would be better than a misleading one. /sidenote) And answers is behind keeping the Okral safe. Preventing further harm is more important than sallying out to reap vengeance, that's Belegar's philosophy through and through.

But we can go a step further than that. With our Zhuf magic, we can save lives instead of just protect them. The KaK dwarves will assume our assistance for vengance, but they've spurned K8P through and through. Here and now, though, we can rescue the dwarves trapped in the broken steamships. The dwarves down there have to accept Mathilde's help here, or die. And they'll choose her help instead.

Lastly, this isn't just making KaK marginally less angry; it's preventing grudges outright. You think someone Karaz-a-Karak's Metalsmiths Guildleader isn't extremely important? If he dies, then there must be war. But if he lives, retrubution may still be sought but it will not be from the grief of loosing a piece of the Karaz Ankor itself forever.
Hmm. There is an argument to be made that, since air pockets can remain stable for days in a sunken ship, we might be able to track down the culprits, then come back and rescue survivors.

Dwarves are hardy, and air pockets can lost for days. But there may be injuries, the water may be leaking, the air pockets may be struturally collapsing, and here there's super-piranhas trying to get in. Just because the time scale is in hours instead of minutes doesn't mean those hours won't count for life or for death.
[X] Try to track the bandits

I've convinced myself. Yes, there's a risk that the ship will shift and some of the survivors we could have saved perish before we're back, but if this was Marienburg then they're likely skilled operators that will be actively covering their tracks, and if it was someone trying to pin it on Marienburg then I'd like to catch them and share knowledge of that as quickly as possible.

This is shaping up to cause the largest Dwarf mobilization in millenia, and I'd very much prefer if it was aimed at the right place.

If aiming KaK's vengeance at the right target is so important, important enough to callously let the dwarves in the ships die, I'd like to remind you: We're Belegar's spymaster, and we don't have his hangups. We're in a position to twist the truth ourselves.

But I urge you to think not of vengeance, but of life. Vengeance can come later, but saving lives can only come by acting now. Don't put avenging harm above preventing harm in the first place. The Karaz Ankor's decline is a hundred hundred incidents just like this one, where those with irreplaceable skill and knowledge and family and friendship died because avenging the dead was more important than saving the living. Death leading to even more death. If Belegar's dream of K8P being a symbol of hope, of the future, of restoration and growth, we cannot make the same mistake! He's already doing the best he can in this regard by waiting for the reinforcements at dawn before seeking out the attackers. We should do the same.
 
Something I have not seen discussed is just what people expect to find by tracking down the bandits.

Consider that the actual ambushers must be human. They could not have guaranteed the ambush would take place at night and if there were rats or dwarfs firing from the shore in broad daylight it would be really obvious. So human bandits or mercenaries.
Finding out who hired and supplied them will be near impossible as all the potential suspects have access to Ulgu casters and thus would not need to leave even memories to identify them.

We can certainly murderblend the people directly responsible for the ambush which is a worthy endeavour in and of itself. However I very much doubt we will find anything resembling proof of the ultimate offender.
 
They do have 'Externally focused Martial' advisor, though, which is Sky-Thane Gotri and his Aircorps. (Dreng being the internally focused martial advisor.)
 
Any survivor we find inside the wreck is incredibly unlikely to be a useful witness for directing the grudge though.

Those on deck might have seen something (if it was artillery or a nearby boat), but those are either already on shore or dead.
The ones who were in their cabins by the time of the attack, the ones we are most likely to find alive, can't have noticed anything but the explosion and then the sudden sinking.
 
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Jesus Christ! @Thor's Twin stop hitting me in my feels!

Wonderful omake. Very moving.

Thank you.

Edit: But yeah "He's not of the form you would expect" as a warning and then some more of an internal narrative regarding Detlev acknowledging the surprise that he felt

And this is just me, but I would have like for Qrech to have finished hearing Detlev's story. But then again, death is by it's nature a tragedy. Maybe it is... fitting/congruent to reality that Qrech did not get to have that.

And by my own lights, I would have preferred a stronger recognisance from Mathilde that the "best outcome/circumstance" (in her view) is still an evil thing.


Finally, I'm only bothering to write this because I am so moved. If your post was not as good as it was, I would not have bothered typing this.
 
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the way I see it, they already have experienced trackers going after the bandits, but they might not have anyone else with the skillset to rescue the survivors.
 
the way I see it, they already have experienced trackers going after the bandits, but they might not have anyone else with the skillset to rescue the survivors.
No they don't.

They have the mentioned VIPs and a few Hammerer-bodyguards.

Rangers with tracking experience will certainly come, but they are not here yet, or in the next few hours, so they will have to deal with cold trails.
 
the way I see it, they already have experienced trackers going after the bandits, but they might not have anyone else with the skillset to rescue the survivors.
My option on it is that saving the dwarfs is the moral thing to do.

but tracking the bandits is the strategic thing to do.

its the Seed argument. yes mathy can help all the soldiers, but Trige demands that she save the charges for the important people.

so yes, she could save a few from drowning, but being coldly logical its not the best use of her time with the props getting away and orcs very near and maybe coming.
 
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