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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Speculation on the Divine
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    • So this is all wild speculation and not particularly backed up by Warhammer canon or Boney's canon, but here's my take on how gods work:



    So Ranald and Loec and Qu'aph are "the same", in that many of the core concepts that make up their identity overlap in the Warp. But by the same token they're "different", since they have distinct identities and there are regions in the warp open to some of them but not others. Ranald is not a god of dancing, Loec is not a god of cats, and neither of them are gods of snakes.

    Note: Regions are not to scale, Tzeentch is much, much larger than any of the other three gods I listed.
     
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    • Well, that's a rather more literal "picture worth a thousand words" than usual. Nice!

    BTW, I think you accidentally made Ranald's region curve around protection. And IMO the perpetually smug deity probably has a chunk of Ambition as well, at least a little bit.
     
    Redshirt Army said:
    So this is all wild speculation and not particularly backed up by Warhammer canon or Boney's canon, but here's my take on how gods work:



    So Ranald and Loec and Qu'aph are "the same", in that many of the core concepts that make up their identity overlap in the Warp. But by the same token they're "different", since they have distinct identities and there are regions in the warp open to some of them but not others. Ranald is not a god of dancing, Loec is not a god of cats, and neither of them are gods of snakes.

    Note: Regions are not to scale, Tzeentch is much, much larger than any of the other three gods I listed.
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    Possible bug report: Shouldn't Ranald intrude into the circle of Protection?

    edit: oops, ninja'd.

    edit edit: Assassinated? Eshin'd? Randalded? Mathilded? What is the meme around here?
     
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    Redshirt Army said:
    So this is all wild speculation and not particularly backed up by Warhammer canon or Boney's canon, but here's my take on how gods work:



    So Ranald and Loec and Qu'aph are "the same", in that many of the core concepts that make up their identity overlap in the Warp. But by the same token they're "different", since they have distinct identities and there are regions in the warp open to some of them but not others. Ranald is not a god of dancing, Loec is not a god of cats, and neither of them are gods of snakes.

    Note: Regions are not to scale, Tzeentch is much, much larger than any of the other three gods I listed.
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    Just about to chime in on this, but you summed it up better than I could have with the addition of that diagram.

    Gods are beings of the Aethyr. Thus, the distinction between 'what a god is' and 'who a god is' may well be meaningless.
     
    I have been recently rereading parts of this quest and this discussion has reminded me of this after we picked Windsage and Avatar.

    BoneyM said:
    Magesight, you reflect on the long road to Barak Varr, is underestimated and underappreciated not just by non-wizards, but also most of those who share the sense. They see it only as their ability to see the Winds they manipulate, instead of delivering an entirely new and unique set of senses to understand the world. Magic doesn't just blow according to its whims, it also gathers around living beings in a reflection of their nature and emotions, and don't rely on sufficient light or low ambient noise levels to function. You've used ambient Ulgu as night vision, you've spotted enemies in the dark by the swirl of Winds their emotions generate, you've seen the Winds curdled into necromantic energy and shaped and twisted by the Waaagh and stripped of agency and funnelled into Dwarven Rune magic. You're beginning to suspect you've reached an understanding of the Winds beyond what most Magisters could ever achieve, and even beyond most of the more practical Lord Magisters. The information you can gather from a glance matches descriptions of what Volans was said to be capable of, or even what Teclis described as possible for the Elven Mages of Ulthuan.

    And it's not just the normal Arcane energies you're beginning to understand, if the Winds could ever be described as 'normal'. Ranald has been a near-constant presence in your life for some time now, but you've also felt the intervention of Sigmar (though only for smiting His enemies, and not for healing His worthiest servant...), born witness to a battle between Ranald and Stromfels, and been in the presence of Gork and possessed by Mork. The Colleges teach that Divine Magic is entirely different to Arcane Magic, and cannot be understood through its lens, but you're beginning to wonder if that's actually true.

    But then again, perhaps it makes sense that nobody else has pursued this line of enquiry. Most other Gods would either consider the very question ingratitude at best or heresy at worst, and the exceptions would be Gods like Verena who would instead pass on a single orthodoxy that was not to be questioned. But Ranald as you know Him is different. The Trickster, the first of His faces you had come to know, would delight in your seeking of answers to what so many would consider unanswerable questions. The Protector, who made Ranald worship so touchy and who you'd tried to enshrine in the Stirland Watch, would approve of challenging the power structure that would so unfairly deny knowledge to those who could benefit from it. The Gambler had put His thumb on the scales for you many times, including when you were investigating the nature of magic and had almost suffered Shyish discharge to the face or an ill-timed ambush from Wisdom's Asp, and had also put everything on the line alongside you and profited as the two of you robbed Mork of a portion of His power. And the Night Prowler... well, what better to steal than knowledge of the nature of the Gods?

    Perhaps it makes sense that you are in a position to answer questions that so many haven't even dared to ask in the relatively short history of the Colleges of Magic.
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    We have both in character reason and traits to study what are gods.
     
    picklepikkl said:
    You came up with a bunch of ideas for divine-arcane magic intersection studies, asked Boney about it, and he said, essentially, "no, that's not happening."
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    Not quite - Boney didn't give a flat "no, that's not happening" when rejecting them but instead a "there's no narrative reason for Mathilde to go that far looking into this stuff". The key difference is that if we end up developing a narrative reason to look deeper in the matter (or somehow expand our setting-breaking travel capabilities even further to make looking into something a continent away trivial enough for idle whims) then they'd all be allowed.

    Jyn has interpreted this to mean that shifting the entire structure of the quest to one about roaming far and wide would be necessary before we could plausibly wander over and (insert activity here), but that's also not the complete picture. There is at least one avenue currently available that would allow us to present a plausible narrative for Mathilde to journey and do said activities without changing the current paradigm - and it's to give a character with a known interest in such matters a larger presence and weight in the quest.

    Now, this doesn't necessarily mean romancing Cython (though that would be the easiest and most straightforward way of doing it) because we could also just do a bunch of social actions before setting up a sort of quid pro quo "help me do (insert task) by applying your general draconic self to it, and in exchange I will help you (insert vaguely related to religious knowledge action)".

    TL;DR: If we want to go poking around in the deep bodies of forgotten religious lore in the world we must first poke a sleeping dragon until it's our friend.
     
    deathofrats0808 said:
    I'm pretty sure Salyak is considered a different goddess from Shallya. Shallya is a southern goddess for one. I don't see anything saying the cults agree on them being the same goddess either.
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    Realm of the Ice Queen, pages 81-82
    Shallyan Mission
    After the Lubjanko (see The Lubjanko on page 85) fell into disuse as a place of healing, the disenfranchised Salyakarin Priests commissioned the Shallyan temple at Couronne for monies to construct a mission in Kislev. After much wrangling, their request was granted, and the "Shallyan" Mission was built. Where the Lubjanko is a place of dying, the Shallyan Mission is a place of life, and those who are brought within its white marble walls invariably walk out again. Once a visitor passes through the modest gates of the mission, they enter into a pleasant courtyard garden with a fountain at its centre, and the cooing of doves fills the air. Herbs and medicinal plants grow in this garden, which flourishes all year round, no matter how severe the winter. Images of hearts and the Goddess of Healing and Mercy cover the walls, and on the left is the temple, a nondescript white building with simple pews and a pale statue of Shallya. Several chapels line the other side of the courtyard, and at the end are the infirmaries where the sick and needy are cared for by the clerics of Shallya, most of whom are female. No one is ever turned away from the Shallyan Mission, but anyone healed of their wounds or sickness is expected to place a coin in every Temple of Shallya they pass from then on. No matter its official title, most Kislevites stubbornly refer to the Mission as "The Temple of Salyak", and there has been significant pressure from locals for the Shallyans to accept traditional, thus better, Salyakarin values.
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    Here we have Salyakarin priests asking the head temple of Shallya for money to build a temple, and the friction there isn't "You should worship Salyak instead of Shallya", but rather "the values we associate with the same god are different, and ours are better."
     
    me.me.here said:
    Not quite - Boney didn't give a flat "no, that's not happening" when rejecting them but instead a "there's no narrative reason for Mathilde to go that far looking into this stuff". The key difference is that if we end up developing a narrative reason to look deeper in the matter (or somehow expand our setting-breaking travel capabilities even further to make looking into something a continent away trivial enough for idle whims) then they'd all be allowed.
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    Fair enough, and if that had been what the post had said, I would not have objected. The thing I objected to was saying "Boney says" without a quote and claiming that our research ambition of Divine Magic requires going full adventurer-archaeologist, which is uncomfortably close to misrepresenting the QM in order to support a preferred course of action.
     
    Jeopardizer said:
    1- I really don't see much if any difference between elf-Khaine and human-Khaine. I find it a really weird hill to stand on compared to basically any other option.
    2- Some god being shared amongst cultures doesn't affect the fact that plenty of gods obviously aren't : Ulric certainly wasn't the Nehekaran god of war but was adopted by plenty of Kislevites, who imported their own gods from the eastern steppes, only the Empire worship Sigmar, in the same way only Bretonnians worship the Lady; to say nothing of the fact that Khaine and Khorne are not the same, or the fact that Cathay probably have their own pantheon of administrators and bureaucrats or whatever. Is it really so terrible if a handful of them were worshipped under other names by older civilizations that?
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    I do tbh. HK is much more about taking pleasure in the act of murder, of savoring the kill from what I've seen of his strictures. He is, as far as I can tell, an excuse to be able to have serial killer plots in the RPG. EK seems to focus on the shedding blood in his name part, rather than actual murder. Could just be we're getting two different impressions though.

    I don't object to a handful of them being shared. I object to a) all of them being shared or b) those ones that have been shared being continually borrowed over and over again. Like, I don't want Ranald to actually be Qu'aph to actually be Loec etc.


    Completely different topic, but this discussion (particularly the Southern/Northern gods dichotomy) has made me realise that the Empire is essentially humanity's tipping point between tribalism (or arguably barbarism) and how to put this... like, civilisation, I guess? Although that's not the best word for it I can't think of how to put it. But I think it's kind of cool.
     
    Advanced Neo-Theological Theory 2
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    • NexusEye said:
    From what little we learned studying the coin before Ranald sent his cease and desist letter, Gods seem to just be dummy thicc mortal souls.
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    It's especially funny when you compare it to the Elven model, where gods are supposed to be, like, states of mind or something, that you worship through mantling.

    Elves: Gods are a state of mind!
    Elven Gods: *Wave, from a philosophical point of view*
    Humans: Gods are big people who get mad when you don't share your cheese with them.
    Human Gods: *frown at the elves, who will not share their cheese*

    I guess that's the issue when you're trying to fit a single point of view onto a concept that's inherently subjective between species. And...

    It also probably explains the difference between Human Khaine and Elven Khaine. Elven Khaine is an elemental thing, more personality trait than personality. Human Khaine is a big murder guy who lives in the dream-land. They're both Khaine, so they occupy the same place in the warp, but the Mythic God and the Elemental God together are like a fire elemental in the middle of an inferno. Overlapping, and even perhaps combined, though their sources are quite distinct.

    Consider the following:


    Alone, neither is all that good. A bit of hat, a bit of sword, a bit of horse. Combined, they're fleshed out, given more facets. Twice as much sword. Twice as much hat. Twice as much horse. They gain the ability to exist in ways a single follower might not know about or understand.
     
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    • picklepikkl said:
    Fair enough, and if that had been what the post had said, I would not have objected. The thing I objected to was saying "Boney says" without a quote and claiming that our research ambition of Divine Magic requires going full adventurer-archaeologist, which is uncomfortably close to misrepresenting the QM in order to support a preferred course of action.
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    I didn't want it to mean requires going full adventurer-archaeologist.

    what i meant was that K8Ps is tapped out for magic stuff, so leaving k8ps (fully or an away trips) is the only way we are going to see a few clues or leads to the higher magical mysteries.

    its just going full adventurer-archaeologist is a good way of doing that while appeasing the 'don't want to leave k8ps for more then a 'in-game year' faction.
     
    chocolote12 said:
    It's especially funny when you compare it to the Elven model, where gods are supposed to be, like, states of mind or something, that you worship through mantling.
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    While that's always been an interesting idea, it doesn't really work with what we're shown of Elven society through basically any other source. Like, they have shrines, and priests and believe their gods are people. They have creation myths and believe their rulers are divinely approved. None of which really works if they think their gods are just states of mind, rather than being sapient entities.
     
    chocolote12 said:
    It's especially funny when you compare it to the Elven model, where gods are supposed to be, like, states of mind or something, that you worship through mantling.

    Elves: Gods are a state of mind!
    Elven Gods: *Wave, from a philosophical point of view*
    Humans: Gods are big people who get mad when you don't share your cheese with them.
    Human Gods: *frown at the elves, who will not share their cheese*

    I guess that's the issue when you're trying to fit a single point of view onto a concept that's inherently subjective between species. And...

    It also probably explains the difference between Human Khaine and Elven Khaine. Elven Khaine is an elemental thing, more personality trait than personality. Human Khaine is a big murder guy who lives in the dream-land. They're both Khaine, so they occupy the same place in the warp, but the Mythic God and the Elemental God together are like a fire elemental in the middle of an inferno. Overlapping, and even perhaps combined, though their sources are quite distinct.

    Consider the following:


    Alone, neither is all that good. A bit of hat, a bit of sword, a bit of horse. Combined, they're fleshed out, given more facets. Twice as much sword. Twice as much hat. Twice as much horse. They gain the ability to exist in ways a single follower might not know about or understand.
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    I thought you didn't like Mathy2?
     
    Redshirt Army said:
    So this is all wild speculation and not particularly backed up by Warhammer canon or Boney's canon, but here's my take on how gods work:



    So Ranald and Loec and Qu'aph are "the same", in that many of the core concepts that make up their identity overlap in the Warp. But by the same token they're "different", since they have distinct identities and there are regions in the warp open to some of them but not others. Ranald is not a god of dancing, Loec is not a god of cats, and neither of them are gods of snakes.

    Note: Regions are not to scale, Tzeentch is much, much larger than any of the other three gods I listed.
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    Godwinson said:
    We need to find/create/promote/become a non-Chaotic god of magic for the Empire, dammit.
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    If we do end up ascending as a new god, my best guess of what Mathilde's main domains would be is: Magic, Knowledge, Intrigue, Protection, and a dip into Mischief? Seems like there'd be a lot of overlap with Tzeentch, which is somewhat concerning!
     
    deathofrats0808 said:
    While that's always been an interesting idea, it doesn't really work with what we're shown of Elven society through basically any other source. Like, they have shrines, and priests and believe their gods are people. They have creation myths and believe their rulers are divinely approved. None of which really works if they think their gods are just states of mind, rather than being sapient entities.
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    I don't think it's quite that simple. Take that myth about Ulgu again.

    At face value, it's a pretty bog-standard myth.

    Asuryan is dead, Tzeentch sends eight demons out to ravage the lands, Hoeth, God of Wisdom, steals the sword of the demon named Ulgu and uses it to turn the tide.

    But if you asked an elf whether there literally were eight demons of Tzeetch, one of which was named Ulgu, the answer would probably be "no". It's a metaphor - Tzeentch sent the eight winds of magic out to turn the world to Chaos, but with wisdom you can use that magic to fight him.
     
    HeWhoAdds said:
    If we do end up ascending as a new god, my best guess of what Mathilde's main domains would be is: Magic, Knowledge, Intrigue, Protection, and a dip into Mischief? Seems like there'd be a lot of overlap with Tzeentch, which is somewhat concerning!
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    I'd go with the dwarven definition: Her domain would be A Mathilde.
     
    The Elven ideaology about their gods and myths being metaphors is also one of the reasons they get pretty ticked whenever it turns out that one of their 'metaphors' wandered off and started blessing a bunch of humans.
     
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