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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Redshirt Army said:
I don't think it's quite that simple. Take that myth about Ulgu again.

At face value, it's a pretty bog-standard myth.

Asuryan is dead, Tzeentch sends eight demons out to ravage the lands, Hoeth, God of Wisdom, steals the sword of the demon named Ulgu and uses it to turn the tide.

But if you asked an elf whether there literally were eight demons of Tzeetch, one of which was named Ulgu, the answer would probably be "no". It's a metaphor - Tzeentch sent the eight winds of magic out to turn the world to Chaos, but with wisdom you can use that magic to fight him.
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I mean sure. On the other hand the Elves believe their first King was appointed by the power of Asuryan and the picked up the physical sword of Khaine and went and stabbed daemons in the face. And there are people who saw all that happen who are still alive (albeit mostly evil). And again, they have priests and shrines and prayers.

Don't get me wrong, it's entirely possible to have the Elven gods be a state of mind, and entirely possible to do it well and I think that would've been a cool idea. It's just that so far as I can see, it was made up entirely for the RPG and never reflected anywhere else in the lore. Which means it sort of falls flat because of the clash between the versions of canon. It's a bit like if the RPG said that in actuality Settra never existed and instead he was just made up as a foundation mythos for Nehekhara. It's not impossible, it just doesn't match with what we know from most every other source
 
Honestly, on the topic of Warhammer gods do we even know that they all even functions using the same rules? Maybe some are ascended mortals, some are warp entities that co-opted mortals deeds for their own, some are masses of warp energy that formed from worship aimed at something that didn't yet exist, some are their own distinct warp entities that messed around in reality and got themselves worshipped, some are genuinely just metaphors, some are warp entities who used those metaphors to get a foothold in reality...

You get the idea. There's nothing that says they need to be consistent and follow the same set of rules.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I don't think it's quite that simple. Take that myth about Ulgu again.

At face value, it's a pretty bog-standard myth.

Asuryan is dead, Tzeentch sends eight demons out to ravage the lands, Hoeth, God of Wisdom, steals the sword of the demon named Ulgu and uses it to turn the tide.

But if you asked an elf whether there literally were eight demons of Tzeetch, one of which was named Ulgu, the answer would probably be "no". It's a metaphor - Tzeentch sent the eight winds of magic out to turn the world to Chaos, but with wisdom you can use that magic to fight him.
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As far as I'm aware, they do believe that all Elves are literally descended from Isha and Kurnous?
 
storryeater said:
Concerning? The more domains the chaos gods lose exclusivity over, the better. It sounds like a win to me.
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It would be fantastic if an Order God ascended and grabbed those domains. It would be significantly less fantastic if Tzeentch used all that overlap and his established dummy thiccness to slurp up said newly fledged god like a smoothie.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I don't think it's quite that simple. Take that myth about Ulgu again.

At face value, it's a pretty bog-standard myth.

Asuryan is dead, Tzeentch sends eight demons out to ravage the lands, Hoeth, God of Wisdom, steals the sword of the demon named Ulgu and uses it to turn the tide.

But if you asked an elf whether there literally were eight demons of Tzeetch, one of which was named Ulgu, the answer would probably be "no". It's a metaphor - Tzeentch sent the eight winds of magic out to turn the world to Chaos, but with wisdom you can use that magic to fight him.
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Taking the winds Chaos sends and using them against Chaos was not what the myth was about. Hoeth/Verena did not steal "Ulgu's sword". She stole back an Old One weapon that Ulgu stole, and that sword was not the Sword of Shadows or the Sword of Ulgu or whatever, it was the Sword of Judgement. The myth was not about how shadow magic got into the good guys' hands, it was about how the concept of Judgement ended up in both Verena and Ulgu's hands, as well as why both Verenans/Hoeth worshippers and shadow wizards have swords as their symbols.
 
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storryeater said:
Concerning? The more domains the chaos gods lose exclusivity over, the better. It sounds like a win to me.
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Mathilde: "Don't bother selling your soul to Tzeentch. I can give you just as much magic, and I won't ask you to mutate yourself into the bastard lovechild of an octopus and campfire in the process!"
 
storryeater said:
Concerning? The more domains the chaos gods lose exclusivity over, the better. It sounds like a win to me.
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How many domains do the chaos gods actually HAVE exclusivity over? Asaph is a goddess of magic an objectively still around enough to act outside of the warp since she's the one who's keeping Khalida running with a completely different sort of undeath than the rest of the Tomb Kings are operating on. Morag-Hai is a goddess of fate and arguable Morr is as well in his ties to prophecy, which isn't JUST prophecy about people's deaths. Knowledge is of course only not an intersection with the various trickster gods he's being contrasted with in that particular image, it's still in Verena's domain.
 
I'm pretty sure gods have to move against cults in the physical world in order to mess with each other. Every river and stream is teaming with minor riverine deities, but the Shark god certainly hasn't eaten them all.
 
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Authentic photograph of Ranald, 2485 (colourized)
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    • chocolote12 said:
    There's an explicit hooded-cobra-god of deceit, though, (and heavy implications that all of the deceit gods and goddesses are the same ambiguously gendered and species'd individual just wearing a new little cardboard mask when they go up to the new culture). Why go for the hard explanation when the simple one (hey, it's your friend in their desert-culture costume) makes more sense?
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    I read this, and knew what I had to do.



    Authentic photograph of Ranald, 2485 (colourized)
     
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    • Redshirt Army said:
    It would be fantastic if an Order God ascended and grabbed those domains. It would be significantly less fantastic if Tzeentch used all that overlap and his established dummy thiccness to slurp up said newly fledged god like a smoothie.
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    What we need, then. Is a God of Dummy Thicc.

    Tzeentch[1] may be dummy thicc, but I do not believe that means that they hold domonions over the concept.

    Of course that leads us to the how. And... well. Hmmm. There was mention of a Mathilde 2, (context being the idea that gods are born from stories)

    What we need to do is to get Mathilde... or another very well known public figure to eat lots of cake, and do whatever else is needed to birth a god.

    Wait, no. We want this to be an anti-Tzeentch god. So no magic users, or anyone strongly inclined to any of Tzeentch's domains....

    How receptive do you think a favoured slave of Khorne might be to therapy to work on those anger issues?

    [1] Yes, I did copy-paste your usage of this word. You can tell because I didn't spell it "The Changer"
     
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    BeepSmile said:
    Wait, no. We want this to be an anti-Tzeentch god. So no magic users, or anyone strongly inclined to any of Tzeentch's domains....
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    You're thinking of Morr.

    The certitude of death is Cryptonite to hope. There is no change in the stillness of the grave. How can you outplan a being whose maw gapes wide at the end of every timeline? How can a weaver of fickle fates defy the Lord of Dooms? There is no running nor hiding from such a thing; wherever you go, he is already there.
     
    Redshirt Army said:
    Potentially longer - once we're back from the expedition coincides with both the library book and the possible start of the Waystone project. I'd estimate five or so turns before our schedule clears enough for the trip.
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    I don't think the waystone project is going to be finished in as little as five turns. I'd rather visit the elves first anywayay, in case learning elven magic comes in handy for the waystones.
     
    chocolote12 said:
    You're thinking of Morr.

    The certitude of death is Cryptonite to hope. There is no change in the stillness of the grave. How can you outplan a being whose maw gapes wide at the end of every timeline? How can a weaver of fickle fates defy the Lord of Dooms? There is no running nor hiding from such a thing; wherever you go, he is already there.
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    Unfortunately, Morr isn't especially useful for this role despite his domains being well suited, because he doesn't concern himself with the living unless they're necromancers, and even then mostly because they're vandalizing his garden and leaving the gates unlocked for Chaos to mess around with his mortal souls.
     
    Klaus said:
    I don't think the waystone project is going to be finished in as little as five turns. I'd rather visit the elves first anywayay, in case learning elven magic comes in handy for the waystones.
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    It's Belegar's decision what to put us on, but I can imagine us doing a write-in addendum during our next project vote, the same way we did for Abelhelm sometimes, e.g.:

    -[*] PROJECT: Nagarythe
    --[*] Recommend to Belegar that he put us on this before the Waystone project, in case relevant elf knowledge turns up
     
    I figure an Elven god is sort of like Anonymous, except acting through the warp instead of through the internet. There's a person-shaped image that can represent them, they have something resembling a personality, and it is possible to provoke their anger or gain their favor, but they arise from the collective feelings/values/actions of many individuals without being individuals themselves. When the followers use the favored behaviors of the greater "being" in order to fulfill its values, they effectively are the greater being they serve/follow, but not all of it. When you put on a Guy Fawkes mask and post a video announcing that you've doxxed the guy who made kitten snuff, you are an extension of Anonymous in the physical world, but Anonymous as a whole is so much more than you and is hacking/doxxing/arranging flash mobs in pursuit of other goals you aren't aware of while you're doing your part.

    A human god is more like a corporation with a publicly known founder/CEO/spokesperson - they arise from the collective actions of many individuals, but they have a set of values and behaviors largely shaped by that individual founder, and are sort of an extension of that person. Subordinates and followers act to carry out the greater being's will, quite possibly with the power of the greater being backing them, and may influence the greater whole with their beliefs of what it is or should be, but they are not themselves the greater being, merely lesser individuals in its service. While he was alive, Steve Jobs sort of was Apple, but the folks who work in the Genius Bars or who wax rhapsodic about the latest iPhone are merely servants/followers of Apple.
     
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    Redshirt Army said:
    It would be fantastic if an Order God ascended and grabbed those domains. It would be significantly less fantastic if Tzeentch used all that overlap and his established dummy thiccness to slurp up said newly fledged god like a smoothie.
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    reignonyrparade said:
    How many domains do the chaos gods actually HAVE exclusivity over? Asaph is a goddess of magic an objectively still around enough to act outside of the warp since she's the one who's keeping Khalida running with a completely different sort of undeath than the rest of the Tomb Kings are operating on. Morag-Hai is a goddess of fate and arguable Morr is as well in his ties to prophecy, which isn't JUST prophecy about people's deaths. Knowledge is of course only not an intersection with the various trickster gods he's being contrasted with in that particular image, it's still in Verena's domain.
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    Khaine seems to indicate that you can have substantial overlap with a Chaos god and not be subsumed. Even if Khorne has infiltrated Khaine it isn't deep enough to corrupt those who worship Khaine or get Khaine to do Khornate but non-Khainelike stuff so in practice it has no effect. That said Khaine is a pretty powerful god and it's possible that Chaos would gobble any lesser god which tries the same trick.
     
    chocolote12 said:
    You're thinking of Morr.

    The certitude of death is Cryptonite to hope. There is no change in the stillness of the grave. How can you outplan a being whose maw gapes wide at the end of every timeline? How can a weaver of fickle fates defy the Lord of Dooms? There is no running nor hiding from such a thing; wherever you go, he is already there.
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    Huh.

    This post drags me into existentialism.

    ----
    Oblivion, or: Thermal Equilibrium is inevitable... Live, Hope, Change; anyway. That is the only victory that minds have against relentless entropy.



    ------
    To clarify, your post has shown me that the themes of WHF conflict greatly with my view of reality, and my perspective of "right and wrong".

    BeepSmile: Words that describe The Changer's major themes are used to describe good things, actually.


    Ekzentric Lohner said:
    I figure an Elven god is sort of like Anonymous, except acting through the warp instead of through the internet. There's a person-shaped image that can represent them, they have something resembling a personality, and it is possible to provoke their anger or gain their favor, but they arise from the collective feelings/values/actions of many individuals without being individuals themselves. When the followers use the favored behaviors of the greater "being" in order to fulfill its values, they effectively are the greater being they serve/follow, but not all of it. When you put on a Guy Fawkes mask and post a video announcing that you've doxxed the guy who made kitten snuff, you are an extension of Anonymous in the physical world, but Anonymous as a whole is so much more than you and is hacking/doxxing/arranging flash mobs in pursuit of other goals you aren't aware of while you're doing your part.

    A human god is more like a corporation with a publicly known founder/CEO/spokesperson - they arise from the collective actions of many individuals, but they have a set of values and behaviors largely shaped by that individual founder, and are sort of an extension of that person. Subordinates and followers act to carry out the greater being's will, quite possibly with the power of the greater being backing them, and may influence the greater whole with their beliefs of what it is or should be, but they are not themselves the greater being, merely lesser individuals in its service. While he was alive, Steve Jobs sort of was Apple, but the folks who work in the Genius Bars or who wax rhapsodic about the latest iPhone are merely servants/followers of Apple.
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    Don't mythologise people. It gives them power, which would be fine... except it does it in a way that reduces your own[1] actualisation. That is not fine.

    You appear to be [edit: you are] taking an emergent phenomenon of many individuals acting in disparate ways, and treating it as if the shape in your mind is real in the material (physical realty) sense.

    The people who worked as staff in the Apple corporation should have attacked and dethroned Steve Jobs.

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    The difference between the people you describe in the bolded bits and yourself is that you did not work for Apple. Citation: You waxing rhapsodic about how Steve Jobs is the template for the Apple godhead.

    EditL [1] And diminishes the value/impact of other peoples' choices in the eyes of those that read your words.
     
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    I'm not sure when the exact threshold was (I suspect around the time 'Dummy Thick' was first used) but I can safely say that we've officially crossed into thread-madness.
     
    BeepSmile said:
    Don't mythologise people. It gives them power, which would be fine... except it does it in a way that reduces your own actualisation. That is not fine.

    You appear to be [edit: you are] taking an emergent phenomenon of many individuals acting in disparate ways, and treating it as if the shape in your mind is real in the material (physical realty) sense.

    The people who worked as staff in the Apple corporation should have attacked and dethroned Steve Jobs.

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    The difference between the people you describe in the bolded bits and yourself is that you did not work for Apple. Citation: You waxing rhapsodic about how Steve Jobs is the template for the Apple godhead.
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    ... Dude, it's just an analogy about the difference between Elven and human gods. I don't actually think Anonymous or Apple or the late Mr. Jobs are actually deities - there's no supernatural aspect to being part of Anonymous or to fan-personing/working for Apple (or to anything else in this world as far as I can tell), so they're just mundane organizations.
     
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