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Today on Divided Loyalties: The Author's Position on Slavery and the Requisite Historical Context

banger series of posts, boney

Dark as Silver 3/28/24 said:
"Guys, Boney posted 1K words."
"Short update?"
"Even better."
 
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I was under the impression that slaving is non-viable for the non-chaotic human nations because giving the Chaos gods that avenue for societal infiltration and destabilization is not a survival strategy. Also, where are you going to get slaves if you're a non-chaotic human nation? You're not going to raid the chaos worshipers unless you're an idiot, which leaves the other sane humans and you usually need to stay on good terms with them for the next time a big threat comes along.

Interestingly, I wonder how much effort the Dark Elves have to spend on making sure chaos worshipers don't take hold in their slave populations? Perhaps there's a lot going on we don't get to see, perhaps they manage using superior magic or perhaps the chaos gods don't see it as worthwhile at this point, either because they don't get as much out of it for the effort invested or because it'd be helping Ulthuan indirectly...
 
I was under the impression that slaving is non-viable for the non-chaotic human nations because giving the Chaos gods that avenue for societal infiltration and destabilization is not a survival strategy. Also, where are you going to get slaves if you're a non-chaotic human nation? You're not going to raid the chaos worshipers unless you're an idiot, which leaves the other sane humans and you usually need to stay on good terms with them for the next time a big threat comes along.

Interestingly, I wonder how much effort the Dark Elves have to spend on making sure chaos worshipers don't take hold in their slave populations? Perhaps there's a lot going on we don't get to see, perhaps they manage using superior magic or perhaps the chaos gods don't see it as worthwhile at this point, either because they don't get as much out of it for the effort invested or because it'd be helping Ulthuan indirectly...
Whatever method the Druchii use to control their slaves it isn't perfect, one of Lord Magister Walther Kupfer's big accomplishments was formenting a slave revolt in a Druchii city.
Walther Kupfer, who fomented civil unrest from the slave pits of Clar Karond and caused inter-house feuds that still periodically explode into violence to this day.
 
Whatever method the Druchii use to control their slaves it isn't perfect, one of Lord Magister Walther Kupfer's big accomplishments was formenting a slave revolt in a Druchii city.
Given the mention of inter-house feuds, I'm not sure if it was "slave revolt" or more "general Fuckery with local politics while nominally being a harmless slave."
 
I was under the impression that slaving is non-viable for the non-chaotic human nations because giving the Chaos gods that avenue for societal infiltration and destabilization is not a survival strategy. Also, where are you going to get slaves if you're a non-chaotic human nation? You're not going to raid the chaos worshipers unless you're an idiot, which leaves the other sane humans and you usually need to stay on good terms with them for the next time a big threat comes along.

Interestingly, I wonder how much effort the Dark Elves have to spend on making sure chaos worshipers don't take hold in their slave populations? Perhaps there's a lot going on we don't get to see, perhaps they manage using superior magic or perhaps the chaos gods don't see it as worthwhile at this point, either because they don't get as much out of it for the effort invested or because it'd be helping Ulthuan indirectly...
Chaos cults in a slave popualtion are probably much less of a threat than you're imagining. The dangers of such a cult (outside of daemon summoning, which is a threat, but in a monitored population is one easily caught) is the wielding of influence to subvert insititutions. If the people in the cult are all powerless slaves, it doesn't really matter if they worship Chaos, because worshipping Chaos doesn't hand you the influence to change things automatically.
 
which leaves the other sane humans and you usually need to stay on good terms with them for the next time a big threat comes along
I will remind that very few, in character, actually think about The Big Threats that often. The 3rd and 4th Parravon Wars between bretonnia and the empire happened basically during the great war against chaos.
The setup of the world, such as it is, is meant to make conflict between each and every faction viable- this is the setting's Tabletop Wargame roots showing through.
The concept of an anti-chaos alignment that doesn't really fight that much is an artifact of total war warhammer
 
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The ones that exist are safer, not just because of Dwarven teachings but because the costs of tapping the deeper and more dangerous deposits can't compete with Dwarves doing the same in the richer and better-established mines of the World's Edge Mountains.

Ok, hope I am not derailing anything or being stupid here, but this one for once I would like to know more about, because the more I think it over the less it feels like it should work that way.

Are Dwarven mines really so much more efficient and cheaper that they are preferable even with the relatively astronomical transport costs of moving so much metal at the time? Including the huge caravans and not only the Dwarven tariffs but also the tariffs of multiple noblemen in between if you live further in the Empire? (From what I understand, you do not have to pay the elector counts, but the guys they tax, so the more fiefs you pass though the more you have to pay). I can maybe see it for Elector Countships that border the Karaz Ankor, but it feels like costs would ramp up fast without modern technology and economic freedom of movement agreements (where you only need to pay countries you pass though, and even then only sometimes, and use mostly ships that can not only carry more with less manpower and livestockpower but also skip many inbetween countries) , and the mining cost decrease at some point becomes, pardon the pun, dwarfed.
 
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I was under the impression that slaving is non-viable for the non-chaotic human nations because giving the Chaos gods that avenue for societal infiltration and destabilization is not a survival strategy. Also, where are you going to get slaves if you're a non-chaotic human nation? You're not going to raid the chaos worshipers unless you're an idiot, which leaves the other sane humans and you usually need to stay on good terms with them for the next time a big threat comes along.

Interestingly, I wonder how much effort the Dark Elves have to spend on making sure chaos worshipers don't take hold in their slave populations? Perhaps there's a lot going on we don't get to see, perhaps they manage using superior magic or perhaps the chaos gods don't see it as worthwhile at this point, either because they don't get as much out of it for the effort invested or because it'd be helping Ulthuan indirectly...
The main non-Chaos human nation associated with slavery is Araby.

Unfortunate implications aside, it's not terribly explored because Araby itself isn't very explored.
 
Ok, hope I am not derailing anything or being stupid here, but this one for once I would like to know more about, because the more I think it over the less it feels like it should work that way.

Are Dwarven mines really so much more efficient and cheaper that they are preferable even with the relatively astronomical transport costs of moving so much metal at the time? Including the huge caravans and not only the Dwarven tariffs but also the tariffs of multiple noblemen in between if you live further in the Empire? (From what I understand, you do not have to pay the elector counts, but the guys they tax, so the more fiefs you pass though the more you have to pay). I can maybe see it for Elector Countships that border the Karaz Ankor, but it feels like costs would ramp up fast without modern technology and economic freedom of movement agreements (where you only need to pay countries you pass though, and even then only sometimes, and use mostly ships that can not only carry more with less manpower and livestockpower but also skip many inbetween countries) , and the mining cost decrease at some point becomes, pardon the pun, dwarfed.

Metal is pretty compact for value, the cost of transport would be an insignificant part of its value. This was as true in our world as it is in Warhammer, there is a reason why some of the first long range maritime trade recorded was in copper, tin and finished bronze.
 
which leaves the other sane humans and you usually need to stay on good terms with them for the next time a big threat comes along.
How youthfully naive:
For all that Bretonnia did fight alongside the Empire in the Great War Against Chaos, there have been the Third and Fourth Parravon Wars since then. The Third started before the dust had fully settled from the Great War, and the Fourth was recent enough that some of the songs about it are still floating around.
 
Metal is pretty compact for value, the cost of transport would be an insignificant part of its value. This was as true in our world as it is in Warhammer, there is a reason why some of the first long range maritime trade recorded was in copper, tin and finished bronze.

Fair enough, but that would still leave the huge amount of tariffs to consider, wouldn't it?
 
Ok, hope I am not derailing anything or being stupid here, but this one for once I would like to know more about, because the more I think it over the less it feels like it should work that way.

Are Dwarven mines really so much more efficient and cheaper that they are preferable even with the relatively astronomical transport costs of moving so much metal at the time? Including the huge caravans and not only the Dwarven tariffs but also the tariffs of multiple noblemen in between if you live further in the Empire? (From what I understand, you do not have to pay the elector counts, but the guys they tax, so the more fiefs you pass though the more you have to pay). I can maybe see it for Elector Countships that border the Karaz Ankor, but it feels like costs would ramp up fast without modern technology and economic freedom of movement agreements (where you only need to pay countries you pass though, and even then only sometimes, and use mostly ships that can not only carry more with less manpower and livestockpower but also skip many inbetween countries) , and the mining cost decrease at some point becomes, pardon the pun, dwarfed.

The chiefs came to Sigmar, to his hold
Let us fight Goblins, let Orcs be fought!
Sigmar, hammer-bearer lead us in war
And the tribes were going to go forth
With iron of the Dwarfs, to do battle
With Goblins and Orcs.

But then Sigmar spaketh
This cannot be done
For the invisible hand of international commerce
In its infinite and uncountermandable wisdom
Has decreed that iron of the Dwarfs shall be too expensive
For the sons of the Empire to afford.


Just try to tax Dwarven metal going between a Karak and a trader granted a statutory monopoly by an Elector Count to trade Dwarven metals in their province. See if the declaration of war, the declaration of a Grudge, or the excommunication from the Cult of Sigmar reaches you first. It is the foundational military resource that allowed the Empire to exist, a physical manifestation of the bonds that Sigmar built between man and Dwarf, and a requirement of pretty much every industry in the entire Empire. Screwing with the flow of it would piss off the biggest members of every type of power bloc in the Empire.

Also transport costs aren't really that high if you're not in a hurry and you're going to a major city. Every major city is built on a river, so just put it in a barge. A single normal draught horse can pull thirty tons of barge and cargo. You can undercut Dwarven prices plus transportation costs with surface-level deposits, but if you're having to go deep and wrestle with the water table and the labour costs and the inevitable gribblies that are either already down there or want to go down there, you've got no chance.
 
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The chiefs came to Sigmar, to his hold
Let us fight Goblins, let Orcs be fought!
Sigmar, hammer-bearer lead us in war
And the tribes were going to go forth
With iron of the Dwarfs, to do battle
With Goblins and Orcs.

But then Sigmar spaketh
This cannot be done
For the invisible hand of international commerce
In its infinite and uncountermandable wisdom
Has decreed that iron of the Dwarfs shall be too expensive
For the sons of the Empire to afford.


Just try to tax Dwarven metal going between a Karak and a trader granted a statutory monopoly by an Elector Count to trade Dwarven metals in their province. See if the declaration of war, the declaration of a Grudge, or the excommunication from the Cult of Sigmar reaches you first. It is the foundational military resource that allowed the Empire to exist, a physical manifestation of the bonds that Sigmar built between man and Dwarf, and a requirement of pretty much every industry in the entire Empire. Screwing with the flow of it would piss off the biggest members of every type of power bloc in the Empire.

Also transport costs aren't really that high if you're not in a hurry and you're going to a major city. Every major city is built on a river, so just put it in a barge. A single normal draught horse can pull thirty tons of barge and cargo. You can undercut Dwarven prices plus transportation costs with surface-level deposits, but if you're having to go deep and wrestle with the water table and the labour costs and the inevitable gribblies that are either already down there or want to go down there, you've got no chance.

Oh, there is a tariff exemption for religious (and practical, but when has this stopped greed?) reasons, that makes sense. So they are, essentially, using free trade for this particular resource and this particular resource only, yup, this would drive down the costs a lot.

Also, make a monopoly, because this makes non Dwarven metal even more expensive, since it would presumably not be exempt from tariffs.
 
Oh, there is a tariff exemption for religious (and practical, but when has this stopped greed?) reasons, that makes sense. So they are, essentially, using free trade for this particular resource and this particular resource only, yup, this would drive down the costs a lot.

Also, make a monopoly, because this makes non Dwarven metal even more expensive, since it would presumably not be exempt from tariffs.

Well, free trade for eleven specific people and their designated agents.
 
I would also say that the people that can actually build things that last millenia of not just neglect but passive malicious agression, without maintenance, with mundane means can probably just mine better.

Elves have commonplace magic, Dwarves are just really, really good at digging in ways that you can't look at too closely because you would otherwise have to observe something that is in some way entirely magical and claim it to be normal. Can't really trump the races in their extremely specific niches.
 
Would they actually ship ore, or wou it be already smelted? I imagine having high quality steel would be quite worthwhile (though it needs a bunch of extra work on finished product to control where carbon is, so maybe doesn't help that much).
 
Would they actually ship ore, or wou it be already smelted? I imagine having high quality steel would be quite worthwhile (though it needs a bunch of extra work on finished product to control where carbon is, so maybe doesn't help that much).

It'd be ingots, not ore.

Their designated agents being 11 Wilhemina's who they sold the taxation rights to?

Usually a local noble or trade company or blacksmiths guild.
 
The biggest issue I see with buying iron from the dwarves is that the Count is not going to be happy about a continuous flow of specie leaving the province, so you need trade to be going the other way too.
I'm assuming grain and dairy (butter/cheese) are big. Possibly charcoal, though the low density makes it a pain to transport.
 
The biggest issue I see with buying iron from the dwarves is that the Count is not going to be happy about a continuous flow of specie leaving the province, so you need trade to be going the other way too.
I'm assuming grain and dairy (butter/cheese) are big. Possibly charcoal, though the low density makes it a pain to transport.
No coal, so I would imagine that peat and charcoal are primary resources Dwarfs are after.
 
Wasn't there an early WFRP adventure set in a coal mining community?

Mallus was in an ice age when the Old Ones arrived but it wasn't lifeless. In the hundreds of millions of years preceding them there were surely epochs fertile enough to lay down coal.

Even with coal though, the Dawi must have deforested the Worlds Edge mountains enough to be major wood importers.
 
Wasn't there an early WFRP adventure set in a coal mining community?

Mallus was in an ice age when the Old Ones arrived but it wasn't lifeless. In the hundreds of millions of years preceding them there were surely epochs fertile enough to lay down coal.

Even with coal though, the Dawi must have deforested the Worlds Edge mountains enough to be major wood importers.
There's multiple references to coal and coal mining in Warhammer, but for the purposes of this quest, Boney has stated no widespread fossil fuel deposits.
 
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