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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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storryeater said:
I apologise for bothering you again, I really do not want to but I... do not understand what this answer means? What is the preset Y all ulgu spells have?
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It's not a preset Y, it's that when you try to dissolve the boundaries of something, you don't get to "aim" the effect. You could hypothetically blur the boundaries of someone's dreams, and that would do something, but you can't "blur the boundary between dreams and reality" or other 2hu shenanigans.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
I also had forgotten about that, thanks for reminding me. It could be quite important.

Also it makes a new thought occur to me, Hey @BoneyM Do we have any ideas for how a runesmith might go about making Ratling guns explode? Or do we think any of them might manage to translate the insights into the ratling gun paper into their own method of making the things explode?
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Runesmiths cannot remotely and precisely manipulate things, so they are unable to make use of that information.

Redshirt Army said:
It's not a preset Y, it's that when you try to dissolve the boundaries of something, you don't get to "aim" the effect. You could hypothetically blur the boundaries of someone's dreams, and that would do something, but you can't "blur the boundary between dreams and reality" or other 2hu shenanigans.
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This is correct, and a lot clearer than what I was saying.
 
Obtain omnipotence with one easy trick! The Chaos Gods hate her!

"They said it was impossible to use Ulgu to change the boundaries of abstract things, so I adjusted the boundary between possible and impossible."

Learn more about this Magister's secret technique!
 
NSMS said:
I think BoneyM's saying you can muddle with the boundary that surrounds something, but not the boundary the separates two different things.
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I read it as saying you can't blur just the boundary between X and Y. If you try you might start to blur X and Y but you'll also be blurring X and Z, X and W, X and etc. You can blur, but you can't focus the blurring.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Obtain omnipotence with one easy trick! The Chaos Gods hate her!

"They said it was impossible to use Ulgu to change the boundaries of abstract things, so I adjusted the boundary between possible and impossible."

Learn more about this Magister's secret technique!
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"This dragon was annoying me, so I changed the boundary between the left and right halves of its body from one that joins to one that separates. It was... messy."
 
Probably means that the second idea here isn't possible.
(And a conveniently-timed example asked just before the clarifications?)
Alliterate said:
Boundary-blurring
More directly working with Ulgu boundaries. Blur that boundary between where we are and are not, just enough that the boundary between our self and their weapon doesn't intersect. Might manifest as slight deflections, or just things that could miss actually missing.
This one seems harder, but we can already to selective interaction with material objects via Substance of Shadow.
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But say 'blurring their weapons' like substance of shadow does is different, because it's only targeting the X.
 
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NexusEye said:
The way I see it the issues associated with teleport robes depends on the implementation of the guidance/targeting system for choosing a destination.
  1. "Smart" automatic system.
    1. Sub-option 1: "Rule based"
      1. System would work by having a comprehensive set of rules to govern when to teleport and where to teleport.
      2. Would be extremely time consuming to set up as any IRL AI researcher would tell you.
      3. Mathilde does not have anything close to IRL AI expertise so it would be even harder for her.
      4. AI's are extremely good at finding edge-cases and loopholes that technically meet the rules but are not what the programmer intended as any IRL AI researcher would tell you.
      5. 3.1.4 would mean this system would suffer from the same problems as 2.2, i.e. teleporting into somewhere/something deadly.
      6. If complex enough there is a small chance that it is vulnerable to chaos influence if system is sufficiently "mind-like".
    2. Sub-option 2: "Intuition based"
      1. Rather than set up a complete AI, enchant it with the end result "pick a safe teleport destination" and let the warp fill in the rest.
      2. Given that there exist multiple spells that summons minions who do what you want them to without having to manually create a mind, it seems probable that the warp can either take the mage's request for something with a "mind", and fill it in with something based off the caster's subconscious/expectations or the subconscious/expectations of the inhabitants of Mallus as a whole.
      3. Would still be extremely hard and end result would be a black box.
      4. Would probably start developing independence and start disobeying our orders after long enough because the warp is fickle that way.
      5. High chance of chaos corruption, both because it is much more "mind-like" than a rule based system and because all processing is being outsourced to the warp which is where demons live.
  2. Have Wolf pick a destination.
    1. This is the option I see as most viable but it has two issues.
    2. Wolf needs to be close enough that he can see what's going on through the Link of Psyche.
      1. This means that if we're going deep into enemy territory with no safe spots nearby for Wolf to hide in i.e. anywhere near Karag Dum, it won't work.
    3. Wolf needs a way to send a signal to the robe in order to tell it when and where to teleport Mathilde.
      1. Considering how the K8P-wide magic sensor project has run into similar conceptual difficulties and the best solution I've seen so far was chamon-transmitting metal wire, this is a challenge.
      2. Second sub-problem, the system needs to be secure from a magic user impersonating Wolf and teleporting us straight into the ground.
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Rather than having the spell pick where Mathilde gets teleported instead she splits a two-part item, and drops an enchanted targeting item somewhere safe within teleport range before the auto-teleport function becomes active.
Or alternatively, gives half of the item to wolf, and wolf brings it somewhere safe.
This actually makes a fair bit of sense with how Smoke and Mirrors works, as normally it needs a spell present at the teleport destination to target the teleport.

The only real additions are the ability to delay transit while keeping the spell readied, and the functionality to make sure it activates automatically when Mathilde would have taken an injury. (also given the seed and the likelyhood that this thing will be single-use, maybe limit it to 'would have taken a serious injury'.)
 
Redshirt Army said:
"blur the boundary between dreams and reality"
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Or, if you did do that, while trying to get reality warping, you would fail and get something ulgu can do.
A probably reasonable spell for blurring dreams and reality could be one that creates an illusion based on the target's dreams, where you give up control over the details but end up with a very distracting hallucination, due to the personal nature of the contents.
You would also have no way of knowing what they see. The most control you might get is whether to blur a dream or a nightmare with reality. One would lead to confusion and disorientation, and the other to fear.
@BoneyM: would something like this work as a spell to blur boundaries between dreams and reality, or is it pushing the theme too far? Mathilde doesn't have a trait/affinity for dreams so it would be hard for her to create it herself. But it seems to me like it would be all right, power level wise,at least.
 
IronFist said:
Or, if you did do that, while trying to get reality warping, you would fail and get something ulgu can do.
A probably reasonable spell for blurring dreams and reality could be one that creates an illusion based on the target's dreams, where you give up control over the details but end up with a very distracting hallucination, due to the personal nature of the contents.
You would also have no way of knowing what they see. The most control you might get is whether to blur a dream or a nightmare with reality. One would lead to confusion and disorientation, and the other to fear.
@BoneyM: would something like this work as a spell to blur boundaries between dreams and reality, or is it pushing the theme too far? Mathilde doesn't have a trait/affinity for dreams so it would be hard for her to create it herself. But it seems to me like it would be all right, power level wise,at least.
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Please don't use magic to melt Morr's Realm.
 
BoneyM said:
Like Shadow Knives and Throttling and Shadowsteed? Sure.
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Speaking of those, they intersect quite neatly with something I'm interested in. A 'summon' (in video game parlance) than can take hits and accomplish a task, a spell that proves that Ulgu can grab and attack things, and a spell that proves that Ulgu can poke things real good.

Could we make a sharp shadow horse that grabs people to poke them? With bladed edges on it, and it throws out ropes of darkness to catch people trying to run away so that it can drag them back and poke them more... That's a daemon, isn't it. Either that, or a Shadow Spider.

More generally, I'm curious about 'could we research a spell that's like Shadowsteed, but it fights instead of other things'. Like, a spell based on just our Roiling Shadows mastery?
picklepikkl said:
The last thing we need is a Morrtal enemy :V
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No, it'd just be imMorral. :V
 
Redshirt Army said:
A... sharp... horse?

That's a unicorn, right? I could see some other Grey Wizard having a "my Shadowsteed is a unicorn" spell mastery, but they're not Mathilde, and they haven't codified their take on the spell for general use.
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I rolled that post around in my head for two hours and it still came out wrong, I guess. The joke suggestion was about something like a horse with knifes duck-taped to its hooves, to be specific.

The more serious one was 'can we make a shadowsteed that fights instead of carrying people'; I suggested that maybe it could be a spider instead of a horse, because we have a lot of experience with giant spiders, I am given to understand that they're actually pretty Ulgu-aligned, and just as a horse is 'an animal for carrying people' a giant spider is 'an animal for eating people'.
 
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chocolote12 said:
More generally, I'm curious about 'could we research a spell that's like Shadowsteed, but it fights instead of other things'. Like a spell based on just our Roiling Shadows mastery?
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Throttling and Roiling Shadows just need to do a set thing to what it encounters, Shadowsteed just needs to go in whatever direction Mathilde indicates. If you're looking for something that can move and fight independently, that's either a lot of programming you need to mentally encompass every time you cast a spell, or... you need it to be able to think for itself. Which isn't insurmountable, but it is very tricky, and the easiest answer (note: not necessarily best answer) is daemons. Or the souls of the dead. The harder answers are generally very closely kept secrets. The Golds aren't telling what the deal is with Gehenna's Golden Hounds, nor are the Jades about the Dwellers From Below. Ask an Amber Wizard about Flock of Doom, and they'll mutter something about 'Corvus the Crow Lord' and change the subject.
 
BoneyM said:
Throttling and Roiling Shadows just need to do a set thing to what it encounters, Shadowsteed just needs to go in whatever direction Mathilde indicates. If you're looking for something that can move and fight independently, that's either a lot of programming you need to mentally encompass every time you cast a spell, or... you need it to be able to think for itself. Which isn't insurmountable, but it is very tricky, and the easiest answer (note: not necessarily best answer) is daemons. Or the souls of the dead. The harder answers are generally very closely kept secrets. The Golds aren't telling what the deal is with Gehenna's Golden Hounds, nor are the Jades about the Dwellers From Below. Ask an Amber Wizard about Flock of Doom, and they'll mutter something about 'Corvus the Crow Lord' and change the subject.
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It occurs to me that all three of these colleges have strong elementalist traditions.
 
BoneyM said:
The harder answers are generally very closely kept secrets. The Golds aren't telling what the deal is with Gehenna's Golden Hounds, nor are the Jades about the Dwellers From Below. Ask an Amber Wizard about Flock of Doom, and they'll mutter something about 'Corvus the Crow Lord' and change the subject.
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Also presumably whatever's responsible for the Eight Peaks golem?
 
BoneyM said:
Throttling and Roiling Shadows just need to do a set thing to what it encounters, Shadowsteed just needs to go in whatever direction Mathilde indicates.
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I guess maybe 'fight' is too broad; I don't mean a truly independent, fire-and-forget attacker. I apologize for having a hard time pinning this down; my mind isn't very clear right now.

More like, uh, a Yugioh monster? "Now, Shadow Knight, attack Chaos Sorcerer!" The Shadow Steed part goes in the direction of the target, and the throttling part moves the arm towards the target when it gets close enough, and the shadow knives part is sharp and pokes people, and together it looks like it attacks people?
BoneyM said:
If you're looking for something that can move and fight independently, that's either a lot of programming you need to mentally encompass every time you cast a spell,
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Alternatively, we do put in the work to encompass a bunch of things it'd need to do to move or fight, but only once, and bind them all into an enchanted object, in exchange for having to pay a more straightforward price for the simplicity? Like, it sucks up a portion of our magical capacity while in use (so it's still a spell we're maintaining, but it also takes a highly specialized focus)? Would that work better?
 
BoneyM said:
you need it to be able to think for itself. Which isn't insurmountable, but it is very tricky, and the easiest answer (note: not necessarily best answer) is daemons. Or the souls of the dead. The harder answers are generally very closely kept secrets.
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What about ... do we think it'd be hard to connect it to the mind of a familiar?

Same shape as the familiar, with certain familiars the Shadow can just be the same size as the familiar, and if someone has one that's like an average sized snake or a bird, giant sized familiar.
 
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