SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
The trade option doesn't cost lives it costs money, money that could in theory be used to fund other projects. Except dwarven gold often sits in a vault doing sweet fuck all any way *shrug*
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The trade option doesn't cost lives it costs money, money that could in theory be used to fund other projects. Except dwarven gold often sits in a vault doing sweet fuck all any way *shrug*
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
If they're being sent on deniable ops, the Empire can just execute them and say "sorry, we couldn't take them alive."
- Location
- Finland
Yeah, like food.
People will end up loosing their jobs, people will end up loosing their homes.
Unless this is the cleanest, nicest, least disruptive economic disruption ever, people will die.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
The timeline for the polities being weakened by the lack of external river trade is until the canals are done. The Empire isn't going to go back to trading through Marienburg just because they let up on the blockade, because they know that Marienburg could just decide to try and destroy their economy again once they do.
- Location
- Finland
The quote explicitly says that "there will inevitably be casualties because there's very few entirely safe roads in the setting".
And, again, this is not just about the dwarves.
And the war options don't list the economic and direct damage either. Don't take as fact what is decidedly opinion, Mathilde has no information on Marienburg's ability and willingness to maintain such a blockade.
- Location
- California
I don't think so. This entire idea about how Barak Varr will fight for their own interests seems to imply that Marienburg Dwarfs, who aren't even part of the KA, will also fight to maintain their own interests. If the KA could order the pumps not to be maintained, they could also order the canal to stop. Neither of these are really true.
The Empire has no legal authority over any elf in their territory. The response to that is for Ulthuan to exercise their treaty right to have the people who were involved in killing the elves handed over, prosecute them for murder, and execute them. Ulthuan has full authority over any crime involving elves in the Empire, whether as alleged victims or perpetrators.
Think of this as Qing China and the British Empire.
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Well she has the Chancellor in front of her. I think it is a safe assumption that her estimation is based on speaking to him.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The hell? What treaty is that in?
TimEd
Meteor maker
So I guess the Empire will need a breadbasket then? Like oh, I dont know, perhaps The Moot and The Moot v2 (granted Moot v2 needs mpre time to ramp up, but I am sure the Empire can throw a few more wizards from Panoramia's college to help).
Since it weakens both states economically it could still cost lives if some external crises or several hit during said weakness.
- Location
- Czech Republic
The blockade would not last for whole five years. Once it becomes clear that Empire can survive without Marienburg trade it makes the blockade pointless.
Breaking the blockade on the other hand relies on the infamously arrogant elves acting reasonably when dwarfes attack city that they partially own.
Breaking the blockade on the other hand relies on the infamously arrogant elves acting reasonably when dwarfes attack city that they partially own.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't believe the treaty allows Elves to go around murding Imperial citizens without defending themselves. That would be absurd. In the event that it did, they just wouldn't say anything, and what's Ulthuan going to do about it?
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Yeah... nobody is going to actually go along with that. They wouldn't rub their noses in it. There'd be a lot of diplomatic language; "quite sorries" and "not a clue what happened to them"'s. To say nothing of just not saying anything, which in a place as big as the Empire would be trivial. But they would not comply with it.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The Empire is not an industrial capitalist economy where everyone is hooked into the cash nexus. Something like 70+% of the population are farmers who have strong customary property rights in their land and homes. This sort of economic disruption will hurt merchants, cityfolk, and the government's tax revenue more than it will hurt the average commoner.
- Location
- Finland
So we have reached the point where people will quote Boney and then claim the quote says the opposite of what it says, and claim that the voting options lie.
I guess the discussion is pretty useless at this point.
That's the problem, economical upheavals will hurt people who can't afford to weather the costs, and there will be costs.
Major trade disruptions will almost inevitably lead the unemployment, homelesness, and starvation among the lower rungs of society.
I guess the discussion is pretty useless at this point.
Does not matter if the people have no money to buy the food.
That's the problem, economical upheavals will hurt people who can't afford to weather the costs, and there will be costs.
And even without any crises.
Major trade disruptions will almost inevitably lead the unemployment, homelesness, and starvation among the lower rungs of society.
The Empire surviving without Marienburg until the canal is complete won't be clear until the canal is complete. At any given moment before that the forces of destruction may take advantage of our weakness and make us regret this.
- Location
- Earth
Yes, other things like maintaining armies that are guarding against or fighting threats like Ostland eyeing the Ogres or Reikland mopping up the latest from Drachenfels or Wissenland rebuilding from the Skaven. Not to mention the war in Sylvania...
The trade option isn't just weakening the Karaz Ankor, it also weakens the Empire. Rerouting trade to the Karaz Ankor isn't going to be instant, and in the short term all of those conflicts will take a hit as their supply lines become unstable.
The Treaty of Amity and Commerce between the Empire and Ulthuan, which Marienberg, as a successor to the Empire, is also bound by. It's based, including the name, on the unequal treaties that China signed with the European powers.
Warhammer isn't subtle about the relative statuses and relations between Ulthuan and the Old World powers. Ulthuan is very much the fantasy British Empire (just as the Empire is the fantasy HRE), and the authors haven't been shy about mining history to use bits of it in the way it's relations with the rest of the world work.
Not really. The Chancellor's not telling about his opinion. He's asking Mathilde's assessment of the Karaz Ankor's reaction, but it just so happens that there are multiple entirely true answers and he's not going to actively help her manipulate him.
You can assume Mathilde to have a strong and accurate opinion of the dwarves willingness to take a given course of action. You cannot assume Mathilde is sufficiently involved in Marienburg or high imperial politics to accurately predict how these chaotic events will fall out.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Barak Varr's interests in supporting an ally against the predations of a competitor who's become a foe isn't really the same thing as a Dwarven artisan aiding a now-enemy of the Karaz Ankor.
It's possible that the dwarves in Marienburg are willing to do that - though by the standards of the Karaz Ankor, that would be the sort of act that leads to taking the Slayer Oath - but it's also possible that they aren't.
- Location
- Finland
And you think cities do not have poor people?
That there are no labourers, dockworkers, etc, that need to make a living?
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
It also costs dwarfpower, influence, and other resources that could and would be used for a multitude of other things.
And the difference is? As you say, even getting them to back off does nothing to change the situation, so... how is that better? Same timeline of economic effects, Marienburg just has ships free now to continue their own trade instead of strangle ours. Yay.
I take as fact what is written by the QM as our expected consequences. Sure, Mathilde may be wrong, but we're voting as Mathilde, and without other perspectives on the matter trying to argue that she may be wrong is arguing hypotheticals. that is unproductive and unhealthy.
Basically Mathilde believes the Empire would be weakened by one option enough to make a direct note of it, but not the other. Therefore, we should make our guesses and decisions on that.
TimEd
Meteor maker
Money which the Dwarves could front? Which is the MAIN POINT of using Gold to prevent paying in Blood?
Both Options "have a cost". Its what the payment of said cost is that is being argued.