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Fucking fine, let me try once again to clarify.

The idea that we need military power to prevent them from enacting more blockades isn't worth thinking about because they'd have no economic motive to do so. Even if they did have no economic motive to do so the idea that we'd need military power to prevent them from enacting more blockades is faulty.
But where have you plucked this argument from? No one has claimed we need military force to prevent future blockades. One person pointed out that if we get through this by relying on Dwarven largesse and not responding to Marienburg they'd have no incentive to stop playing silly buggers with the Empire since they won't be punished for it, but that's not the same thing.

I didn't say trade. I said "economic cooperation". Financial institutions cooperating to set economic and financial policy is absolutely an important bit of international cooperation.
Given that you were citing this as a cause for closer ties and not friction I assumed you meant trade. I suppose the Empire would feel closer to the Dwarves, but the Dwarves are not going to be happy about it.
 
And yet they already had that giant war once. And yet we had World War II IRL even after having had World War I, and the Cuban Missile Crisis after that. And yet and yet and yet and yet and yet. Don't escalate. Breaking the blockade is brinksmanship, plain and simple. Thinking that brinksmanship will be okay because everyone is sane and rational is how you get World War III. It's been pointed out repeatedly that it only takes one wrong cannonball for this to blow up.

Your position of zero tolerance for escalation is completely untenable for any polity.

The idea that one cannonball is going to restart the war of the beard is frankly nonsense in any case.
 
So, I've got an unrelated question. Do we have something to filter out smoke or generate clean oxygen for us?

Cause with our "be completely fireproof" belt, if we are in a place where we don't care about damages, like an Orc metropolis, setting everything on fire and wandering around the smoke and the fire stabbing people is a decent strategy if we have a way to deal with the smoke/lack of air.

I wonder, could Mathilde use her (and Heidi's?) influence within the Cult of Ranald to use their smuggling rings to supplement the Empire's economy until the Canal gets completed? Marienburg is the holy city of Handrich after all, so I can definitely see Ranaldine cultists wanting to screw them over. With a tidy profit as compensation their show of patriotism of course.

If we want to do this we might want to go to Marienburg and finally set up that Thieves Guild of ours.
 
And the next time something like this happens the Empire will know that this is an option. And the next time Barak Varr needs something done they'll know that the Empire will cooperate with them because they cooperated with the Empire. Just because they don't run a fiat currency doesn't mean they have no financial policy at all. They're not idiots.

They have known that since Sigmar. There is no novel institutional cooperation involved because dwarfs don't work that way
 
I feel like people have a mistaken understanding of the options. To wit: from reading posts, I think a lot of people see "They can make up for the loss in trade" as appeasement to Marienburg.

I agree that appeasement is a terrible idea. But that's not appeasement. These options are appeasement:
[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.

[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
These are the options that stop the canal, allowing Marienburg to continue to exert economic dominance over the Empire through control of the trade routes.

In contrast, any of the options where the canal actually gets built sink the knife into that economic dominance, because once the canal is done, their monopoly is broken. "Making up for the loss" isn't bowing your head to Marienburg and giving in, it's taking your ball and going home. "Fuck right off; we don't need you, and in five years we really won't need you."

Now, you might still decide that breaking the blockade is a better solution. That's valid. But I want to correct the misunderstanding that the Karaz Ankor giving economic aid to the Empire is a situation where Marienburg somehow wins. As long as the canal gets built, Marienburg's influence is dramatically quashed. The question is whether we deny them their influence through force of arms or through force of coin.

(And my view is that the Karaz Ankor has a lot of coins sitting in vaults doing nothing half as useful as "massive monetary stimulus of the Empire's economy" would be.)
 
[x] No, but they could help break the blockade

WAR OF THE BEARD 2 LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
Our economy is a far more stable and persistent threat than Barak Varr's navy, meaning that showing them that throwing tantrums doesn't work is better accomplished economically than militarily.
Alas, current Imperial economy is not up to task of withstanding Marienburg's threats, and I think using (threats of) dwarven military in conduction with the Imperial one is going to tide it over better than using dwarven economy for that.
 
Fell another half dozen pages behind... Yup, it's WHF Divided Loyalties alright.

[X] They can make up for the loss in trade

Voting's open, so I'm going to vote for the trade.

I'm not very comfortable with where the line would be drawn in "help break the blockade" as far as damages or brinkmanship or costs goes, and a blockade-break or war would cost a lot anyway, and with trade we avoid being the ones to throw the first punch and all. And so we just... outlast Marienburg.

Also, if we break the blockade -- which could involve wrecking Marienburg's navy, a dock or two, and parking a dreadnought over there -- then Marienburg will remember that, for the next years ahead. They'll have a lot of bad blood from that!

Whereas if we just bloodlessly (relatively speaking) simply tank the costs and weather the storm, then... Although Marienburg will have lost a huge monopoly, they won't be as damaged and embarrassed and infuriated as having their naval prowess overturned or checked, would be.

So... less bitterness and less trouble. And if they wind up being the ones to escalate and throw the punch? Well, then we try gunship diplomacy...
 
You underestimate the depth to which no one wants it, for three thousand years filed with incitements and localized massacres the elves and dwarfs have not fought. It feels like pure arrogance to imagine they would end up committing mutual suicide over our trade.

You'd be surprised over what kind of stupid shit can kick off a war.

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
 
That's pretty insane though. Not only does he have us at hand and enough pull to command us to write a report at the very least, he also definitely knows far more than Mathilde about how Marienburg and/or Ulthuan would react to any of the military options. Why would he want us to tell him what to do instead of expecting us to tell him what is possible?

In other words, why can't we pick multiple options as we used to for Abelheim?

He's not asking you to tell him what to do, he's asking for your opinion on how the Dwarves would react in a single specific scenario. You can use your answer to have an impact on the future, or you can decide not to.
 
So, I've got an unrelated question. Do we have something to filter out smoke or generate clean oxygen for us?

Cause with our "be completely fireproof" belt, if we are in a place where we don't care about damages, like an Orc metropolis, setting everything on fire and wandering around the smoke and the fire stabbing people is a decent strategy if we have a way to deal with the smoke/lack of air.
There's an action to get enough control of our gas-attracting Arcane Mark to draw the gases away from our face so we can breathe clearly.
 
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I suppose the Empire would feel closer to the Dwarves, but the Dwarves are not going to be happy about it.
The Dwarves would not be happy with Marienburg, but the Empire is their ally that is being unduly distressed by the actions of Marienburg; asking them to help out wouldn't make the dwarves hate the Empire any more than Thorgrim begrudged Karak Eight Peaks for asking for help when the Waaagh was rolling up.
Your position of zero tolerance for escalation is completely untenable for any polity.

The idea that one cannonball is going to restart the war of the beard is frankly nonsense in any case.
Rolling an Ironclad navy straight up the middle of their city and annihilating all their river infrastructure sure would, though. Marienburg doesn't have River Embargo infrastructure, they are river embargo infrastructure.
I not sure about the 'all 8 winds bit' but the rest is right.
His flying tower is roiling with all of them, by my understanding. It's apparently really dramatic and stuff.
 
I feel like people have a mistaken understanding of the options. To wit: from reading posts, I think a lot of people see "They can make up for the loss in trade" as appeasement to Marienburg.

I agree that appeasement is a terrible idea. But that's not appeasement. These options are appeasement:

These are the options that stop the canal, allowing Marienburg to continue to exert economic dominance over the Empire through control of the trade routes.

In contrast, any of the options where the canal actually gets built sink the knife into that economic dominance, because once the canal is done, their monopoly is broken. "Making up for the loss" isn't bowing your head to Marienburg and giving in, it's taking your ball and going home. "Fuck right off; we don't need you, and in five years we really won't need you."

Now, you might still decide that breaking the blockade is a better solution. That's valid. But I want to correct the misunderstanding that the Karaz Ankor giving economic aid to the Empire is a situation where Marienburg somehow wins. As long as the canal gets built, Marienburg's influence is dramatically quashed. The question is whether we deny them their influence through force of arms or through force of coin.

(And my view is that the Karaz Ankor has a lot of coins sitting in vaults doing nothing half as useful as "massive monetary stimulus of the Empire's economy" would be.)

Marianburg wins in that both the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are weakened. If some crises (of which there are many posibiities because this is warhhammer) should show up in the intern, they would then be able to force terms and an abandoning on the canal on the weakened empire
 
[X] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.

Marienburg is a cancer best excised
 
I not sure about the 'all 8 winds bit' but the rest is right.
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Fozzrik's Flying Fortress

"The omens are true, my lord, the oracles are correct; after a thousand years, Fozzrik's Flying Fastness has returned to the Old World. Wrought by magical artifice long lost to scholars of the arcane and coveted by emperors and kings the world over, the Flying Fastness is a sight to behold. A...
A castle as large as any in your lands and crowned by eight spires swirling with all the Winds of Magic, the Flying Fastness would be a marvel even if it was grounded.
 
Marianburg wins in that both the Empire and the Karaz Ankor are weakened. If some crises (of which there are many posibiities because this is warhhammer) should show up in the intern, they would then be able to force terms and an abandoning on the canal on the weakened empire
Marienburg doesn't win, they get a kick in while the Empire is leaving them out to dry.
 
hmmm. @BoneyM How much is some kind of subterfuge possible here? Skull river flows from Black Water lake at Zulfbar to Barak Varr. Since Mat has not checked in on the canal project, I'm guessing she doesn't know how the work is separated. Would it be possible to convince the dwarves to delay the Empire specific part of the canal, the Zulfbar to Aver Reach part, while letting them push on for the locks and infrastructure they need to connect Barak Varr to Black Water?

I don't think Marienburg would have a leg to stand on, or be ready for the kind of diplomatic fracas meddling in internal dwarven matters that would bring, if the canal was only meant to link two dwarven Karaks better, linking Barak Varr to Zulfbar.

That would let the dwarves keep working, get Marienburg off our backs, slow the canal project while giving the Empire time to recover. Once all the stuff is set up internally for the Dwarves, they could jump onto Phase Two, building the Aver Reach segment with as much speed as they could, without other distractions. That would shorten the amount of time the blocade would hold, punt the problem into the future when the Empire might be less streched for resources and let the canal continue on, if slower.

TLDR: Get the dwarves to turn the canal project into a Two Step thing, with one Canal-waterway project as an internal dwarven thing that between Zulfbar to Barak Varr along Skull River and Black Water lake. The dwarves can then solve any problems inherent in that segment and focus wholly on it, while the Empire can tell Marienburg point blank that no canal is being built on the Aver Reach to Zulfbar and be truthful about it.

But once the dwarves are done with taming the Black Water and the Skull River, a planned for speed Phase Two can go. Espetially if Zulfbar and surroundings can be convinced to be quiet about when work starts, can blitz ahead and try and minimize harm to Empire and the dwarves by shortening the blockade further. And the Vampire issue might be more manageable by then.

The two big stubling blocks are convincing Marienburg that the Empire can stop the dwarves from building the canal from the Aver Reach, but not in purely dwarven lands, possibly while also sacrificing/delaying the other canal being built in Empire territory to show they mean it. This would be the job of the person before us.

The other is convincing all the dwarves involved to be sneaky, so as not to start another pissing match with the Elves of Ulthuan over the Empire/Marineburg line. That would be Mat's job.

If both those two can be done, we can come back to this in a year or three, and revisit the issue from a better position. @BoneyM Thoughts?

EDIT: As long as Phase two is officially a dwarven secret, Marienburg can suspect and accuse till the end of time, without proof and with dwarves denying it, they shouldn't be able to do much.
 
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Rolling an Ironclad navy straight up the middle of their city and annihilating all their river infrastructure sure would, though. Marienburg doesn't have River Embargo infrastructure, they are river embargo infrastructure.

Give some actual supporting reasoning for why the elves are going to commit national suicide to prop up some human patsies that are dragging them into a conflict they're not interested in. Rather than instead doing something like telling the Marienburg leadership they're not going to be dying for preserving that extra 40% profit margin, so you guys better make a deal before we make that explicit to the empire and leave you to the wolves.
 
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